Oversaturation of the Nightclub scene

[shiroq]

50 minutes ago, Nervous said:

I'll repeat this again, stop taking real life prices as an example. Yes the price of a beer in a club here is $200 because GTAW$ != US$. If we want the economy to live, we can't suddenly tell truckers "hey you will deliver this drink it'll be $2 payment for you, the club then sells it $3". The economy is stable and based on a value per item. A weapon is around 15-20k, a drink is around $200, you make approximately $5000 per hour if working and not every month so it's all balanced. You can do a x10-x20 on US$ if you want a good estimate of small items values, while houses / vehicles are more around x1.

Completely this. The paychecks of 500-800 hour are more than enough to survive on this server even without a job. Sometimes I spend time roleplaying passively with people and the next day I log in and I see that my bank account grew by 10k and I think to myself wth. Spending let's say 2k in a club a night it's absolutely nothing if you pay 500 to enter then 600 more for drinks or if you are feeling fancier and staying there for a long time 1k that's 1.5k that you spend in a club let's say you get the minimum of 500 paycheck that is basically 3 hours of you not doing anything that gives you that money back.

 

There is no over saturation, it's quite obvious that some places are doing much better than the others and that's simply because they provide something that players like. If your club or business is not doing well. It might be that it needs some sort of changes.

[DLimit]

The prices for alcohol has never been an issue for me, as it makes sense for a beer to cost "$200" in the club and $100ish in the liquor store. In fact, if it were reality, then that beer would cost $500-$900 dollars as a $2 beer, in a real-life liquor store, costs $5.00-$9.00 in a bar. What did I do in real life? I'd pre-drink alcohol before entering any venue, as it was cheaper to drink alcohol in the household or hood than to purchase overpriced alcohol at bars. If it's an I.C. issue for your character, then do that.

[DLimit]

11 hours ago, SaintBatemanofWallStreet said:

Honestly man, I don't care what they cost. What I don't like is when they're charging 200 for a beer. 300 for a mixed drink. Stuff like that. I get it, sometimes it sucks for pricing in terms of your overhead. But I've been in places that charge 200 for a beer and you get nothing in return. And I don't care about getting an item for the transaction. Not even a thing for me, but some do. But that right there? Tells me it's about the money for that club owner. Not the RP. THAT is what I can't abide by. If you can put on a good environment and it just costs a little extra? I'm down with that. But I don't consider a good environment to be one that you just spent a lot of money on to make a cool interior. It's about atmosphere and interaction.

You know Cheers? The TV show? A place where everyone knows your name. Those places I mentioned before? I can go there and they say "Usual?" and I can say sure. It's people who know that my character's name is Ricardo, but he goes by Rick, and they reflect it in their /me's during interaction. It's not robotic and feels like you're waiting in line at an amusement park. Stuff like that adds up. And yeah, it's tedious. I get that. But it makes the difference in whether I'm gonna stay for 15 minutes or until you shut it down.

One would have to also note that the robotic mentality comes from continuously serving customers when a venue is overpacked with people. One cannot engage in that deep "bartender R.P." discussion when there's a line-up of ten people waiting for their drink. Thus, usually, after every one is served, the robotic mentality is removed, allowing the bartender to roleplay as a more human being. In the end, they were hired for a job, and must fulfill that job. Otherwise, they'll be fired.

I've had situations where characters would be flirting with one of my characters when there is a line of four people waiting for freshly-cooked food. She doesn't have time to discuss any thing until she serves those customers. Once it dies down? Sure, start with the deep R.P.

It's real-life... try to chat up with a cashier when the line's full... won't happen.

Edited December 17, 2019 by DLimit

[akari]

8 minutes ago, DLimit said:

One would have to also note that the robotic mentality comes from continuously serving customers when a venue is overpacked with people. One cannot engage in that deep "bartender R.P." discussion when there's a line-up of ten people waiting for their drink. Thus, usually, after every one is served, the robotic mentality is removed, allowing the bartender to roleplay as a more human being. In the end, they were hired for a job, and must fulfill that job. Otherwise, they'll be fired.

I've had situations where characters would be flirting with one of my characters when there is a line of four people waiting for freshly-cooked food. She doesn't have time to discuss any thing until she serves those customers. Once it dies down? Sure, start with the deep R.P.

It's real-life... try to chat up with a cashier when the line's full... won't happen.

People don’t seem to realize that you can still have a conversation while serving others. I do it all the time at work (granted i dont work a bar IRL but the concept is the same - chat with one person while serving another, pause the convo if i need to ask questions/payout, and if theyre the chatty type and the topic is universal enough, i include the other customer into the convo too!!)

 

And I do the same thing with my bartender RP - chat with one customer, if another shows up I greet them and ask their order, turn around and continue to swap between emotes/dialogue and keep with the conversation I was having to begin with. Granted YMMV depending on your typing speed, but a very large margin of customer service workers in real life are VERY skilled at multitasking - we kind of have to to keep everyone happy. And surprise surprise, most of the complaints I end up reading are about my “stoic, nontalkative” employees. It’s not an issue of realism, it’s an issue of robo-bartenders.

 

[Duke]

For those complaining about prices, don't go clubbing if your character can't afford it. 

 

I'd say the economy is at its best if you can't afford to go clubbing if you don't work. 

[Bospy]

I'd much prefer it to be an expensive option for character development than the situation on other places wherein the economy was essentially Weimar Germany in the era of the economic crisis/wallpaper money.

 

Wealth is something that you need to sort of climb the ladder for. Some clubs are prestigious, some are shit, some are hard to get into. This is a cool distinction.

[Jedai]

A lot of points have been raised but I do strongly believe there is an over saturation of nightclubs. Obviously being a major metropolitan city, this is going to happen however specifically there is an over saturation of poor quality from these nightclubs because at the end of the day apart from a theme or something during the time of year, there isn't much difference between them. Personally it's hard to say what causes this. On one hand if the employment is a bit stiff where they act like drink dispensers and don't really communicate with people outside of what do you want to drink, the atmosphere feels generally robotic. On the other hand if the patrons going to these establishments are equally as robotic then it just becomes this weird cycle. Some people get really upset on an IC level for bartenders taking too long and other people just dont care and enjoy the conversation. 

 

Obviously we have trendsetters for unique businesses but I think we need more of that, it isn't just the nightclub scene that suffers from this lack of distinction between businesses. 

[ThatDutchPerson]

I do must say, I did not expect this topic to blow up like this. And I am glad I made it, as it raises some good points coming from the community that not only sheds some extra light on the issue, but also shows other issues seen by community, and not by the management companies / club owners!

 

Although I can not speak for Garden as it fell outside my knowledge that it even closed, I can tell you that there were a huge amount of complaints about Velvet that led to its closure. At the time of its last opening I was closely involved with Duskin Vouss and his company that managed to place, and had a look into all the negativity, mainly because of the interior location / ambient noise. That is the reason why Velvet eventually closed, together with Vouss losing interest. I dont know what happened to Garden exactly. I always considered it to be part of the more exclusive nightclubs.

 

I do get @borhoi's point about two clubs opening at the same time. Reasoning what got me to make this topic is also several players stating too much opens per week and it is getting them less motivated to actually go and visit a nightclub.

Basicly what you are summarizing is, that there is no need for regulations (IC and OOC), and the more unique club wins. I actually agree with this and it is this reply that changed my view on the matter.

 

Pricing

After these two replies a lot of back and forth discussion about pricing is mentioned, I do agree that overpricing is a problem. And it is a problem me and my company are actually trying to resolve with some pilot plans still in the works. The problem with pricing is, everyone is saying that IC money is the only motivation here and that that is wrong. What people should also realize is that, while it most of the times is not the first priority of a person opening a nightclub, it sure as hell is the second priority to make money. Some clubs lately have bar evenings which make it a bit easyer, but when you start talking about atleast two bartenders, two guards, possibly a fee to the management company, a DJ and supply bills, it is hard to find the actual bottom which makes minimum profit but also does not demotivate the club owner and does not inflict on the pay of his/her staff, which still ask reasonable rates at this point in time. So while I do agree pricing is a bit of an issue, I do also stand by the sides of my fellow entrepreneurs that this is not an issue that is resolved within the next few weeks.Plus, lets not forget, that these management companies (Vibe and Midnight for exemple) do not actually own the nightclubs. It is still a very sensitive and political play to have some form of management over a bunch of different club owners who all want to make money to both oay their staff and recoup their investment. I am quite happy to disclose that Midnight and Out of Towners already had a few small conflicts due to the difference in our vision. These were luckly resolved within minutes, but its a prime exemple of how sensitive and fragile such a company actually can be.

This is all I have to say about the pricing matter.

 

Management Roleplay and Immersion / Poor Management

Point brought by @akari, I do agree sometimes its a bit subpar with how management of these management companies / club owners is sometimes a bit subpar. I myself slipped up a few times, not to mention the competition aswell. Midnight is already on its way to further improve our standards of roleplay (we will soon open a roleplay screenshot thread). I can not speak for the competition, but if your reply specificly means the media outreach and public relations, I can however say that Midnight actually has a special ''branch'' or something like that to deal with Media Relations and our public image. This ''branch'' is seated by the CEO, COO, and a few shareholders.

 

Again, I can not speak for Vibe. What I can speak for is my own company; Midnight. What I do want to say, not as an excuse (Im not here to make excuses), is that Midnight is still an infant among the bigger fish in town. We are all stressed out (OOCly aswell) because of all the regulations and company policy are taking official effect this week and it irritates the most of us to suddenly be thrown into that bureaucracy. I can not disclose the specific contents, but I can say that we have a bunch of paperwork which outlines company policy, rosters, codes of conduct and more. Knowing all those by the end of the week is not an easy task. As for my personal outbursts, and thus Kayleighs, thats simply because my COO recently left the company and a lot of stuff that she used to do are now falling into my lap. Often half-finished. We are getting there though! Glad to ehar your view on it too. Also for @.45I think I made it pretty clear now that it arent ''the same bunch of people''. Vibe actually has a competitor; Midnight. I do agree on closer monitoring, although how would you see this becoming feasable?

 

Indepth Roleplay with guests

Brought forward by @DLimitand @akari; I disagree with the fact that a lot of roleplay is not done because of ''robotic'' behaviour by the bartending staff or an other staff. The fact akari does say its in fact an easy thing to do during multitasking in real life too is false. I myself work in a restaurant (all-be it all-you-can-eat) as a teamleader which means I supervise the waiters and to some extent also the bar staff. During rush hour, which is comparable to a night club opening here or worse, I duely hope for my staff to NOT be chatting with guests and customers; we DONT have the time to have conversations with guests when there is a bunch of warm food and cold drinks waiting to be served to our guests. And if they do, I actually do tell them ''Hey, good that you try to be friendly! But we dont have the time for that now. Try it when its less busy.''

The bar staff gets paid to serve drinks. If guests have to wait longer because the bar staff is having a conversation while ''multitasking'' in a TEXT-BASED roleplay server, it affects not only our income but also the guest satisfaction. Sure they can have conversations with the guests, but when it is less busy. Yes, this is official Midnight policy. Part of that policy is also that there is always a representative of the company at an opening to open dialogue with guests. Ive seen managers just sit in the VIP area and only responding to incidents; Midnight does not allow that. Our ''managers'' are representatives that are there to open dialogue with the guests and to manage the opening to make sure nothing goes wrong. Basicly he/she is there to have conversations with our guests, and to uphold a professional standard in regards to the direct management and incident handling. Most of the times these representatives are even a direct line to the company management, because mainly the CEO, COO and a few select shareholders are allowed to act as a representative at the moment.

Edited December 17, 2019 by ThatDutchPerson

[akari]

a lot of this response is elaboration and justifications for your character and her company's IC actions - personally, i, the player, couldn't care less how justifiable or not things have been for them thus far, as none of the oversaturation and pricing actually matters to me on an OOC level. that's something to bring up with akari isayama, the character, not me. but i'll address the things that aren't necessarily IC.

 

25 minutes ago, ThatDutchPerson said:

What people should also realize is that, while it most of the times is not the first priority of a person opening a nightclub, it sure as hell is the second priority to make money. Some clubs lately have bar evenings which make it a bit easyer, but when you start talking about atleast two bartenders, two guards, possibly a fee to the management company, a DJ and supply bills, it is hard to find the actual bottom which makes minimum profit but also does not demotivate the club owner and does not inflict on the pay of his/her staff, which still ask reasonable rates at this point in time.

 

No, no no no. This is not an excuse. The point of running a business is that it's SUPPOSED to be difficult. You've chosen to coordinate openings, harness a team, and keep track of finances. People start up venues and businesses to provide an enjoyable experience for the consumer; and vetoing your staff is very well part of this process. If you go into management of ANY venue head-first with no forethought and realize it's too difficult to keep track of on an OOC level, that is nobody's problem but your own.

As for bar openings, if anything that PROVES that the main focus for nightclubs is script money - it's an easy way to cash grab. They don't need as much security, they don't need a DJ, and hell, they probably don't even need to use a management outsource! It's not innovative and it's not "caring for the company." Again, I've kept my thoughts on nightclubs opening as bars/lounges IC for the sake of immersion, but I've always agreed with my character that the entire concept is a cheap and lazy way for management to make a quick buck. And when you bring it to an OOC level, it turns from normal money-grubbing to an issue of the player valuing script assets over the roleplay experience.

 

33 minutes ago, ThatDutchPerson said:

The fact akari does say its in fact an easy thing to do during multitasking in real life too is false. I myself work in a restaurant (all-be it all-you-can-eat) as a teamleader which means I supervise the waiters and to some extent also the bar staff. During rush hour, which is comparable to a night club opening here or worse, I duely hope for my staff to NOT be chatting with guests and customers; we DONT have the time to have conversations with guests when there is a bunch of warm food and cold drinks waiting to be served to our guests. And if they do, I actually do tell them ''Hey, good that you try to be friendly! But we dont have the time for that now. Try it when its less busy.''

The bar staff gets paid to serve drinks. If guests have to wait longer because the bar staff is having a conversation while ''multitasking'' in a TEXT-BASED roleplay server, it affects not only our income but also the guest satisfaction. Sure they can have conversations with the guests, but when it is less busy.

 

I wrote my previous post from the perspective of a team leader in the customer service industry as well! I let my people chat up customers all the time - It's friendly! It gives them a good impression of our staff! It keeps people coming back! But there is a key difference between your team and mine; Mine is usually stuck in one spot. A good chunk of yours is not.

What you are describing is a restaurant. My character owns one of these (with an open bar!), so I can give some insight from an in-server perspective.

I do not let the waitstaff at Sakana chat it up with guests when we've got a lot of people - I want them out on the floor, making sure everyone is taken care of. The barstaff, though? They're essentially stuck in the same ten square feet for the entire duration of their shift. Unless you're Club Royale or Sneaky Pete's and your bar is fifty feet long (a specific interior design nitpick that sends me into cardiac arrest when i see it), your bartender won't be walking more than a few feet at any given time. Their voice would, realistically, stay in range of the customer! And their dialogue still shows up in the customer's chatbox, so - What reason is there not to chat?

Ah, yes. Because we are a "text-based roleplay server." And what about it?

People who come into a text-based roleplay server should come here knowing full well that they're going to have to allow time for people with slower typing speeds. Time passing on the server is not a 1:1 to the real life flow of time - There are people who put a thirty to sixty minute garage job into a dozen or so lines of RP in ten minutes. And on the flipside, there are people who take a minute or two to type a drink-mixing emote that, if they were to perform the action in realtime, would take them no longer than fourty seconds.

Anyone who comes to a virtual bar on a roleplay server, and then complains about the bartender taking to long because they're roleplaying is not a customer you want to have in the first place. It's rude and disrespectful not only to players who don't have as high of a WPM as others, but ESPECIALLY disrespectful to players who don't have English as a first language.

[DLimit]

7 hours ago, akari said:

People don’t seem to realize that you can still have a conversation while serving others. I do it all the time at work (granted i dont work a bar IRL but the concept is the same - chat with one person while serving another, pause the convo if i need to ask questions/payout, and if theyre the chatty type and the topic is universal enough, i include the other customer into the convo too!!)

 

And I do the same thing with my bartender RP - chat with one customer, if another shows up I greet them and ask their order, turn around and continue to swap between emotes/dialogue and keep with the conversation I was having to begin with. Granted YMMV depending on your typing speed, but a very large margin of customer service workers in real life are VERY skilled at multitasking - we kind of have to to keep everyone happy. And surprise surprise, most of the complaints I end up reading are about my “stoic, nontalkative” employees. It’s not an issue of realism, it’s an issue of robo-bartenders.

 

As a former cashier within a coffee shop, though, there is a fine line between being friendly and being counter-productive. Employees are expected to provide customers with a high-level of customer service. However, if a discussion disrupts the flow of traffic or the completion of work-related tasks, especially during rush hours, then that person would be disciplined by management for failing to comply with their duties. It's much more challenging to multi-task actions and words on a text-based server, as typing takes twice as long in comparison to pouring a drink for one customer while chatting with another customer. 

It also depends on the job, as-well... My character's a chef. She cannot discuss any thing with clients while preparing seven freshly cooked items for a load of clients, as it would disrupt the production of the food. At it's most, she'll undergo small-talk while stirring a pot. Otherwise, it's a bit challenging.