Bospy

Welcome back

I don't want you to think I'm arguing against JSA at all, you guys have done an excellent job designing this system right now and I can't congratulate @Brettand you enough about how this has established an entirely new vein of roleplay unlike we've seen at any other server. It's got excellent design. I just don't want what we have to get any more strict. I'm no advocate for these consequences being decreased, I like where they're at right now.

What wrongdoing? What rule did he break on any OOC level? How am I shifting blame in any way? How did the player harm you on any personal out-of-character basis? You have to disconnect his character from the player. His character committed a triple homicide, but the players who he killed chose to PK. Why should his character then be CK'd from that situation? It's an unfair double standard. He is being forced permanently close that character's storyline when the storylines of his victims continue without impediment (except for you voluntarily choosing to incorporate it). It is commendable you're choosing to roleplay this as part of your character's storyline, but your friends won't, because they died. He probably wouldn't incorporate this into his storyline at all, because it's an inconsequential murder, not on an enemy. I would understand your position more if the players involved chose to CK. The murderer readily admitted to us on an OOC level his character would not have cooperated whatsoever if he knew what the punishment would be. He would've ran, fought, and most probably shot to kill cops to avoid capture and CK. He would've just died. Once again, my point is if you increase punishments, it simply means more criminals are going to shoot their way out of interactions with LEOs. That's my sole point of contention here. I'm not arguing in favor of any one party or against them. This has widespread implications. Criminal roleplayers, especially the shitty ones, will shoot their way out of unfavorable interactions. It means they're more apt to kill your legal character for some tiny indiscretion. It means the gun is used more often than words. Increasing IC punishments means the players will avoid the court system like the plague. Instead, we get engaging roleplay where he admits to committing a murder, guides detectives to a body, and the murders are resolved in 22 hours. You get to participate in a court case and incorporate in your character's storyline that two of her random friends died. Nobody would blink twice when you move on from that and interact with your two friends on a regular basis, just as nobody is going to blink when he's released from prison. If he goes around CONSISTENTLY committing triple homicides and risking his character like this, then it approaches a roleplay quality issue. Instead, he's going to be on parole for the rest of his character's existence. That's a heavy constraint. You're voluntarily incorporating it into a storyline, which like I said is commendable. But your friends literally cannot incorporate this event into their character's storyline at all, because doing so would violate the rules. They were PK'd, they must treat it as a new life.

I didn't chastise you at all. It's your decision and your responsibility how you choose to portray your character. I'm not mandated to force you to correct that until it approaches something unreasonable. I'm not here to set a precedent either. That's not my job. I'm just here talking about my opinion. Those two players who were killed were not CK'd. They're going to go back to roleplaying their characters as soon as the judgement is issued. They'd be metagaming if they acknowledged that they died on any sort of IC basis. So where does that leave us? Either they CK so that our criminal buddy CKs too, or he should be let out just as they continue to RP their characters with no consequence. Obviously, this means your character wouldn't be eligible for CK either. That's my frank opinion. I care little for how my opinion is viewed either way. I'm expressing what I think will happen if punishments are increased. Criminal roleplay will be threatened, more people will be enticed to shoot themselves out of interesting roleplay, and law enforcement roleplay will suffer because there will be no bad guys to chase.

I'm a legal roleplayer. Three out of four of my character slots are devoted towards the Sheriff's Department. While you have a very noble goal, I'm telling you that increasing the weight of certain crimes will do a massive disservice towards the good criminal roleplayers. I am not a fan of massive hit squads or shitty extortions, or shooting at cops just because they're chasing you. In terms of your point about full cases falling flat, this is unfortunately very much part of our real life political atmosphere in many liberal locales. Unlike many people's beliefs, it is actually exceedingly rare for a trial to even get to the bench or jury. Only 2% of all US trials ever go to a jury. Before then, there's plea bargains. But plea bargains are also a rather small percentage compared to the cases which are dropped, diverted to programs, or thrown out by an overloaded DA. There was a police officer in my state who was killed by a man who had something to the tune of 300 priors. When you hear about a criminal on this server getting off easy on some heavy charges, consider it from the perspective of a Californian citizen when a gang member leaves prison because he doesn't meet three-strike clauses even if he committed a serious crime. I have a personal anecdote - someone shot a close family member of mine five times, twice in the lungs. The person who shot him is probably only going to spend five years in prison at most. If a police officer or sheriff's deputy does something stupid and dies in a shootout, they have a new gun immediately upon spawning and can go chase bad guys. Illegal roleplayers do not have ready access to new weapons and ammunition like you might think. I invite you to create a criminal character and try to purchase an illegal firearm. This is a tall order, even on an experienced gang member's behalf. I roleplayed in the illegal atmosphere on this server on multiple different occasions and found myself struggling to find switchblades. Criminal roleplay is difficult. It is incredibly difficult. If you are used to being spoonfed scenes (e.g. law enforcement) or used to casual scenes (legal) then entering criminal roleplay will not be easy for you. Many times, you are alone. You need to learn how to create your own roleplay through confrontation. So let's say you want to commit a crime. Most people aren't going to imagine themselves engaging in criminal activity, so it's hard to portray that on a character. Sure, portraying a status offense (e.g. drug usage) is relatively easy. But robbing somebody is hard. Killing someone innocent is hard. You need to arrange logistics, you need to keep a watchful eye for witnesses. My personal standard is this: if you are a legal roleplayer and have qualms with some aspect of criminal roleplay on this server, I invite you to create a criminal character. Doesn't matter their ethnicity. Make a criminal. Your objective is solely to mug someone successfully AND to get away with it. It's an exercise. It's going to be a lot more difficult than you might think right now. Yes, I was the Sheriff and I'm still advising the current Sheriff. I much prefer legal roleplay to criminal roleplay because it's much easier for me to fit in. Calling the city a lawless wasteland is sort of a stretch. LEO roleplayers barely stumble across crimes in progress as it is. Criminal roleplay is very much in an infantile state at this community. There are no long-term alliances that have been brokered, no historical struggles that occupied the city's mind for years, no large RICO-style shutdowns. The only thing that comes to mind if the collapse of the Jamestown Mafia. My character's arrests came almost purely from traffic stops that I initiated. Some legal roleplayers are not comfortable with traffic stops or self-initiated scenes because they fear confrontation on an OOC level. I shy away from that. I've had criminal roleplayers stop and cooperate with me with TEC-9s in their waistband. This isn't a magical event - if you roleplay realistically, criminals will tend to cooperate. Criminal roleplay is not nearly as organized on our server as other servers I've participated in. We do not have a cops v. robbers atmosphere, a massive middle line of legal roleplayers exists and probably will never be threatened. In fact, I think this server is ripe for massive criminal roleplay growth as other communities perish. There's tons of victims and untouched opportunities waiting for a solid criminal faction to pop up. Shitty criminal RP absolutely exists and fills that vacuum in the meantime, but it's illegal FM's job to police that. If you witness shitty criminal RP, better to report it to us than to simply push forward "policies" which would degrade quality roleplay. These are not requirements, merely standards people set for themselves. As a cop I arrested tons of people and filled out paperwork pretty lazily and still managed to get them to plead guilty. Nobody needs to do anything. The issue is you're looking at this from the perspective of winners and losers. A criminal roleplayer doesn't win when he murders somebody. A cop doesn't win when he catches a criminal. If you establish win and lose conditions, then you're playing to win. Your character wants to catch bad guys, but you shouldn't want to catch bad guys yourself. That'll cloud your judgement. I never concerned myself with "winning" cases or locking bad guys up. I didn't give a shit if a case I had got thrown out. I literally roleplayed a lazy Lieutenant who didn't give a shit, and I'll continue to roleplay that. My arrest records are the bare minimum. I've had someone I arrested who was participating in an active shooter incident get let go because my character was declared a hostile witness. I don't give a shit, it's amusing to me. Rather than view the criminal slipping away as some sort of obstacle, view it from their perspective. These procedural fuckups happen literally all the time. This doesn't apply to a place like Los Angeles. Gangs of 1000+ people exist in Los Angeles, and those people all are pretty much actively engaged in commercial drug trafficking. I can speak on this with authority because I used to live there. The majority of crimes go undetected in a community like Los Angeles. Massive criminal enterprises exist in Los Angeles, and in many cases are under the umbrella of even larger and more dangerous enterprises in prison with their tendrils extended into the streets. This is a unique problem. Most communities in the United States do not face the same organized criminal enterprises that LA does, outside of maybe LCN on the East Coast, but even then LCN was more involved in white-collar issues. Criminals going after influential people is such a large problem in Los Angeles that the LASD has a detail devoted to it called the Robbery-Burglary detail in the Major Crimes Bureau. Criminal gangs have been documented to engage in home invasions in wealthy neighborhoods while driving high-end vehicles to blend in. This is not isolated - multiple gangs have engaged in this across ethnic and racial lines. Criminals go after influential people on a consistent basis in real life. Of course, we can't really represent the ratio of criminals to civilians, but if you live somewhere with a gang problem, there is a non-zero probably of you possibly being victimized. While many of them do end up behind bars, it's a risk versus reward factor. Many criminals are stupid. They aren't going to think about the long-term consequences of their actions when they're pumped on methamphetamine or zoned out due to heroin. Their low intelligence coupled with their prolific drug use, especially among gang members, will drive them to commit "stupid crime" like chasing influential civilians. This is very much an assumption you've made about the attitudes of the majority. Most serious criminal roleplayers look down on people like this. In terms of an OOC perspective, this isn't proper or acceptable. I agree with you here. People that mix their character's desires with their own are stupid. Criminal roleplayers who view legal roleplay in this manner are metagamers and unable to accurately portray their character. In terms of IC portrayal, it's perfectly reasonable for a criminal to view each victim as an opportunity. If you enforce a standard like this, then any time an innocent character is victimized, you'd need to enforce the same standard for them. Someone gets PK'd for witnessing a crime? Maybe that's a CK now. You get robbed and they shoot your kneecap? You need to roleplay being a cripple permanently. Sometimes we need to extend our disbelief to ignore certain scenes our characters participate in. This is one of those instances. Most criminal roleplayers do not take their character's rapsheet super seriously if they kill some random person for an indiscretion. Most LEO roleplayers are not going to roleplay having been shot twenty times. Crime is obviously going to take place at a horrendously inflated rate in our fictional version of Los Angeles. We have to accept that, or we could just authorize a total of maybe 10 criminal characters, 8 of which are just drug users. These are choices you made, they weren't forced on you. The player who was arrested was forced to seriously consider leaving the community. At the end of the day, this is JSA's thread. I don't want to pollute it. But I personally stand against any sentencing increase beyond what we currently have. Those Sheriff's Detectives were disappointed on an OOC level because the illegal roleplayer was considering leaving the community and was forced to essentially accept a CK. They enjoyed the scene on an IC basis and had no complaints with the court process OUTSIDE of the incredibly harsh sentencing, essentially forcing him to lose his character. I am incredibly proud of them for this. Once again, I am almost purely a legal roleplayer. I simply have a different perspective on this issue. Personally, I want MORE crime. It means more fun for me as a law enforcement roleplayer.

Someone losing their character over them PKing a character is not something suitable for this server. Players will not have any incentive to surrender to law enforcement and roleplay cooperation after they've committed heinous crimes if it means they'll be basically CK'd. A situation like this already took place recently. A player killed two people who weren't permanently killed and immediately went back to roleplaying. The player was nearly CK'd even though his victims were in the streets, doing the same things they had been doing prior to their roleplayed, legitimate deaths. If you have a situation where only criminals are at risk of CK for crimes, then you will encourage them to opt to shoot their way out of arrest or find another way to die. Criminal roleplay on this server is already difficult enough to discover, if you hamstring it any more, you discourage it. I say this as a member of illegal FM, we don't approve CKs on LEOs for doing their jobs, nor would we approve CKs on prosecutors or witnesses unless it involved an illegal party at risk of losing their life or a faction shutting down. This is a good reply from two months ago that generally summarizes my thoughts.

You'd have to have a RICO predicate to indict someone as a member of a criminal organization. You can't just go to prison for being a member. Yes, federal prisoners are a large population of inmates in real life, but state-wise, you have more state inmates in California than federal inmates. The federal prison system is a different beast than state prisons and representing it would be a massive headache for the server's legal system on multiple levels. A RICO system might be in the works on a state level. It wouldn't be super active, that's what my point was. I don't see how a change in scenery changes activity at all. There's multiple logistical challenges you'd have to challenge, and even once they're tackled, it runs into the same problem - criminal roleplay is not active enough to support two custodial settings, and given what I know about custodial roleplay, activity will be spotty at best.

We've separated males and females into their own blocks. In terms of segregating females/males from eachother, this isn't really feasible if we want any sort of active population for some roleplayers.

Not really, no. I've explained this plenty of times in the past. The LA County Jail system is one of the largest correctional systems in the country. Due to a DOJ report stating that the CDCR was violating inmate's constitutional rights because of overcrowding, a massive number of Californian inmates were shuffled to county facilities - convicted felons serving their state prison sentences - with very heavy rapsheets. There are convicted, sentenced murderers currently serving time in the LA County jail system. The intent of a jail is temporary detention pending sentencing. In LA, this is not the case. The overcrowding of the CDCR's facilities has caused them to cook the books by shifting responsibility to local county agencies. The LASD is one such agency. In the context of our roleplay, it is completely reasonable to have state prisoners inside of Twin Towers Correctional Facility even if they've already been sentenced. And given how overcrowded the system would be IC, this would mean that hardcore gangmembers could feasibly rub shoulders with low-level criminals. International smugglers and nationwide mobsters are very rare in real life anyways. However, members of La eMe or the Aryan Brotherhood have been documented to abuse the courts in order to get transferred to county jail facilities in order to manage segments of their territory or transmit orders. It's as simple as committing another crime while behind bars or getting a fake subpoena from a corrupt lawyer. There's an incentive to go to county facilities because 1. it's travel and 2. they can easier manage their operations closer to home. Federal prison wouldn't work because to be arrested for a federal crime, a federal agency has to investigate you and arrest you. You then go to federal court, are sentenced on federal charges, and go to federal prison. This is why the majority of people in federal prison are there for interstate charges and white collar crimes relevant to the FBI. This would require us establishing an entirely separate infrastructure for a very niche section of the server that many people would not roleplay, and in addition it would require a number of our prosecutors and judges to learn literal US Federal Law to effectively execute. The alternative is a state prison - solely state based - with a state department of corrections. However, I will enlighten you as to why this is a bad idea. A faction solely devoted to policing an interior will always be overshadowed by patrol-based LEO factions. It will always play second fiddle. It will always be impossible to maintain its activity. We've experimented with this before on other communities and it almost always fails unless the criminals are active. As I have pointed out, you can very realistically roleplay a hardcore heavy-hitter in the county jail setting. This shouldn't break your immersion. If you're a member of an East-Coast mafia or a transnational organized crime group? It might be unrealistic. The LSSD has more explicit functions than the jail. I was to be a member in a SADCR-based faction on this community in 2017. A counsel determined that a solely-prison based faction would not be feasible. I don't think it'd ever be feasible in our setting. Criminal roleplay is already relatively disorganized and very much still in an infancy stage in many metrics. There is significantly more legal roleplay on our server than illegal roleplay. When you don't have large hierarchies and history backing them up, it's going to be disparate groups of 5-10 players popping up once every three months to roleplay correctional officers and inmates. Outside of that, I don't see it happening. As a member of illegal FM, dividing our inmate population into two different segments like this would kill any sort of custodial-based inmate roleplay opportunities. I'm telling you right now that a state prison run by a state-based Department of Corrections would more than likely fail. Feasibly, I could see an opportunity in the future to open a single state prison block to cater to "heavy-hitter" alternate criminal characters as a sort of hub for members of AB/eMe, but the faction managing it would have to be composed purely of alternate characters. It can't be an actual infrastructure or something long-term. But this would require activity in the jail to pick up speed and more criminal roleplay. As the server grows, I figure this could be something to explore. I don't see us reaching this point within a year, though. A state prison would not resolve the current activity issues in jail. It would exacerbate them. Jail is already dead at certain times. Dividing this already small population into two settings destroys the potential for roleplay. Plus, I just don't see how a change in scenery would change anything. What we need is more scripting and more motivation from illegal roleplayers to engage in this setting on an active basis. People can't expect to be spoonfed roleplay. They need to create the roleplay themselves. Scripting augments that. This issue isn't on SD's end, either. We are actively staffing the jail the majority of the time. There's just no inmates to interact with. Jail is already in the process of being remapped and we'll be implementing some new scripting soon to support that.

Although I wasn't a participant this is the kind of roleplay I want to foster on the community - dynamic, player-driven. No event team was necessary. No organization was needed. This kind of RP is the kind you'll remember years from now when you're with friends talking about the community. A riot completely out of IC events. I'm fully for it, regardless of what really started it, because what matters is that a spark caused a fire to get lit. Now I get to RP the politics on the Sheriff and trying to throw people under the bus.

Illegal FM doesn't have an arbitrary slot limit set for the number of illegal factions - having 3 faction threads tied to one existing group is not in and of itself a problem. Multiple factions do this - for instance, the White Car has a number of satellite gangs (PENI, IWB, FAIM) under their umbrella. This doesn't mean we aren't policing the establishment of new factions. Right now, there's a lot of illegal factions of a certain grain. There's no issues creating a high-quality group in an area often not travelled in, but you need to create the right group - we're not looking for new MCs, for instance.

IFM denies factions on a daily basis for no other reason than them being a concept in an over-saturated place. I couldn't count the number of motorcycle clubs we've denied. This is something we very much want to police. As I said, motorcycle clubs are oversaturated right now - we're basically denying any new application for MCs unless they amaze us for this very reason. We already are. The way we police roleplay quality within existing illegal factions is through action and effort on the part of the community. Illegal FM is a small subteam - we rely on the eyes and ears of illegal factions to report their cohorts for bad roleplay. If you witness trash roleplay, report it. There's certainly plenty of illegal roleplayers right now who do not have the best of intentions.

This discussion isn't my rodeo but I'm involving myself seeing as a rule change to the alternative character policy is mentioned, I will offer my position. Any rule proposal of this nature would be fought against vigorously and for good reason.

Illegal FM is constantly reviewing new submitted factions, and suffice it to say, we are certainly limiting the number of accepted illegal factions to a substantial degree. If every faction being submitted right now were accepted, this would be a more significant problem - at the moment, illegal FM is looking to foster quality over quantity, and this is why so little factions are making it through the filter at the moment. You may have the impression that we're not selecting for quality, but you don't really see all of the submitted factions we do - there's a lot more than you might think.

Locking this thread for self-explanatory reasons.

That's unfortunate that your friends are bitching but we're going to be making plenty of decisions that not everybody likes. I've lost an Assistant Sheriff, a Division Chief, and and Undersheriff over decisions that they didn't like. I make decisions that have the ultimate goal of ensuring long-term success. There's always going to be conflict. I would encourage you to not take into consideration opinions from other people, develop your opinion alone. Encounter us and contribute, or else you're just spreading hearsay. While we'd like to grow as a faction, we have the intent on quality over quantity. We've capped our recruitment drives at roughly 10 vacancies per drive. We maxed out at 50 recently, due to attrition we're at roughly 43 people right now. There's no such thing as a "primary patrol" area, and the server's population is constantly growing. We obviously encourage our people to stick to the county on an internal basis, but we almost always have less than 10 deputies in-game anyways whereas PD can have upwards of 25 officers. If you go through the number of court cases, you will struggle to compare the number of absolute cases SD has contributed as compared to PD - obviously, we're smaller, less coverage, but this means we enforce a higher quality. The Courts would need to have more activity in-game. This is beyond our control. In terms of giving jail guys more to do that isn't patrol, this is something we tried to explore in the past, but we ran into similar obstacles of inactivity on the end of criminal roleplayers - e.g. parole. We are constantly looking for ideas to promote the jail or alternative activities other than patrol. If you have ideas, more than likely we've already experimented with it. Fundamentally, most illegal roleplayers have already made it very clear to us that scripting is a necessity for them to return to jail roleplay. This is outside of our control. We are still exploring other alternatives and options at all times. This is a huge priority for Executive Staff. These already exist, but due to experience at prior communities, both parties came to the decision that a strict "map" would do a massive disservice to our relations simply on the basis that geographic boundaries don't make much sense in the context of a videogame and prior experience at other communities taught both parties that it can create a cut-throat territorial mindset. I do not want people frothing at the mouth any time someone in a blue uniform crosses into the county. So far, we have had an excellent relationship with PD and we envision this will continue. We have already clearly branched away from and delineated clear operational boundaries in fields we operate in - for instance, one of the primary goals I had was to model an accurate Search and Rescue unit - this is already something we've worked on thoroughly with FD. In addition, to any specialized units we've created, something was made clear to us - there's more than enough room for two law enforcement agencies on the server. Detective work a plenty, patrol work a plenty. Quite literally within a week of launching, our detective unit has too heavy of a workload to manage. The number of replies (which I didn't even request from the people replying) should demonstrate to you the passion of the team I've assembled to complete this project. I am equally as passionate. I started with 2 other people from the very bottom. I made 150 pages worth of material for this faction. I am not average. I am not from "many past servers." If this faction dies, so does my interest in this community, but I am so passionately invested in its success that I will ensure I would sooner be banned than to see it closed. There is nothing except exterior forces which would cause this faction to "fail." There is no internal strife, and there is no structural collapse. We are accomplishing all of our objectives. This passion is what sets my team apart from any other team. We have a passion to consistently deliver quality police roleplay without any regard for any other condition. We want people who share that vision to join our faction and help us succeed in that goal. We want to portray an immersive organization. We want people to walk away from any scene involving our characters and say "wow, that could've been me in real life with an actual cop!" So far, this goal is successful. We have had almost no OOC complaints from illegal factions, in fact, we have more complements than complaints. This thread demonstrates that. This is a project - I have made it clear from the beginning, I view this as a hobby, a passion project, and I want it to succeed. I have invested too many hours into this. Even including the people who have left our faction for disagreements over its direction, they have applauded our roleplay quality. I don't know who's telling you that we're "straying down the path of other failed attempts" but I have some inkling. To be frank, it doesn't concern me. Concern comes from many directions, but often times those with the most concerns are those who we have wronged. That isn't to say that I hold any ill will towards them, because ultimately this runs into the managerial concept of people believing that someone is incompetent when they really just don't know the internal workings that well. They believe they know the private discussions - they believe what we're doing is the wrong way of doing it, they believe they may know better. I'll tell you who I am. I'll tell you why I believe I know better than anyone else. I spent years fighting in the trenches on a very successful SAMP community to become the head of a legal faction of 200 people. I'm not bragging about that - people who desire power are often the same kind of people to abuse it and use it to bully people, but this isn't me. That's not my intention and it never has been. If I were a bully, this faction would've already collapsed. If I were using this as some form of escapism to avoid real life, it would also be a failure. My intention is to run a successful top-down organization, because I enjoy that simulation. I've had to make management decisions that would trouble a manager of a real company. I've had to get rid of people with genuinely good intentions. I have had to upset people that I considered close friends and confidants simply because it was the best decision at the time. The direction of this faction is clear, and those who claim otherwise, I feel, just don't appreciate the perspective I share. That's fine! Not everyone is going to appreciate your opinion. I certainly don't appreciate the opinion that this faction is going the wrong direction or is failing, because I have typed for hours on end on this topic. One must note - friends often follow friends. Of my faction, it's impossible for everyone to be in harmony. Sometimes, groups of friends begin to share the same opinion because one member feels wronged. Unfortunately, this can cause everyone of that group to feel wronged. I cannot control that. But of the 40 some odd people we have in the faction now, everyone is satisfied, and we make an effort to keep it that way. If there's someone dissatisfied? I don't know. If there's someone who was dissatisfied who left? I would've made every attempt to try to get them to come around to my viewpoint had they made it known. But some people will never come around. A valuable quote from Teddy Roosevelt describes the position of a faction leader: “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” The only other person who can share this view is my counterpart in Smokey - he is an excellent faction leader, and from what I've gleaned, an equal in this regard. Therefore, anyone who says my faction has failed or is failing has designs due to decisions made against them or is concern trolling. I make it clear here - I have no ill will towards those that make those claims that our faction is failing, because ultimately I feel they simply don't know the truth of our internal discussions, and they may be making hasty assumptions. They just don't know how hard this faction leadership has worked to see this ship set sail. And that's fine with me, they'll come around.