Bospy

And with the DUI case, my point was you could theoretically arrest a guy for DUI first off but continue to fish while telling him you’re “investigating.” It probably wouldn’t happen, but it could. I’m happy you’re against that concept.

I’m happy to hear this, but I just want to give a hypothetical: this is what troubles me. A malicious detective or officer doesn’t like someone on an OOC level. They also have enough evidence to arrest them. But to fuck with them, they decide they need to gather “further evidence” that is beyond the level required for a sentence they’re holding the person for in the first case. Say it’s a gangmember. They want to get more evidence for more charges, but they themselves don’t know what those would be. So the person can already be arrested, but they’re fishing for more. So instead of arresting that person for 2 hours, they punish them by giving them 72 hours. After 40 hours, they decide they can’t find anything else and finally arrest that person. That’s my nightmare and why I’ve been arguing so passionately. If you already have a reason to arrest a guy, don’t go fishing for more with this investigative hold. You’re giving me some more security with your responses, Brett, but I am still concerned about how someone could use this to fuck with a guy they don’t like. That’s why I’m saying have a judge sign off on it beyond a bar standard of 24 hours or something. That way, even if it’s abused, it can be stomached and a player can seek IC recourse afterwards.

The opportunity still lies that people can choose to investigate things they have more than enough evidence to arrest or indict someone for. Who decides what standard of evidence is enough to finally arrest someone for? Brett has said he’d be harsh with anyone who abuses it, but that’s what I’m talking about.

You have to ask @Mantle, but @cryybabyycryy also had a similar instance. I’m not blaming anyone for these issues, though - I think that it is a genuinely good idea to have people cooperate on an OOC level with investigations. The issue is once you give players a power than can be abused without a lot of oversight, situations like this could feasibly happen. You have a right mindset when it comes to punishment in cases of abuse, but it may be difficult to track. I think there needs to be more recourse than an appeal to IA. Lawyers should definitely be an active component.

No, but there’s an example of someone here in this thread being held for 60 hours on a 2 hour charge. That’s the thing. Someone else was held for 18 on less than probable cause.

A traffic stop is a detainment. There’s no distinction between detainments, only the crimes which you’ve been detained for. You only need reasonable suspicion to conduct a traffic stop. Nobody would ever support a 72 hour traffic stop, and I’m sure you’re well aware of that, but through your penal code this isn’t necessarily far off if you bring in the DUI equation. An officer has probable cause to arrest once they have probable cause to investigate. That doesn’t mean a conviction would stick. You need probable cause to investigate something, sure, but probable cause doesn’t mean evidence in the sense that it implicated somebody in a crime. By allowing somebody to be held for 72 hours on the server solely due to reasonable suspicion, it’s rather shit - both of those two stages exist to help secure a conviction, of which does not exist. If you have probable cause that a crime has been committed in real life, you can arrest someone. That doesn’t mean it’s a good arrest, the case can easily be thrown out at conviction. But this system doesn’t exist here. Why do you need 72 hours to investigate something you already have probable cause to arrest for 2 hours for? If you have probable cause in real life to investigate, you can also arrest them right away, but the investigation is there to secure a conviction. Therefore, if you’re detaining somebody for an investigation and it takes longer than the sentence would be, they should be released. The issue is these incremental sentences don’t exist in real life, and 72 hours in comparison to 2 is silly when sentencing in real life is easily 30 days for some misdemeanors. I also support the system Mantle has provided above me if we need to compromise. I’d like detainments long like that to be something a judge authorizes, but that probably won’t happen. I’m willing to support it even though it’s not something I personally like, but I’d prefer it over the current system.

You need reasonable suspicion for a detainment, that doesn’t entail “evidence” in a form that holds for an arrest. If you have probable cause that a crime has been committed, then you're at the point where you make an arrest or search. Reasonable suspicion does not mean you can hold someone for 72 hours at a traffic stop, it is entirely based on the crime - if you are suspected of committing a murder, maybe, but that brings up habeus corpus. Someone being held for assault with a deadly weapon in real life may encounter a 72 hour hold easily. But that is of course with evidence. The player here has stated there was no evidence, and another player said one single person speaking up was valid enough for such a long hold. You would not have a fun time in front of a judge if that was your only evidence to hold someone for 72 hours. Detainments in real life have a maximum range of 72 hours, but these detainments average out to be only around a couple hours long. If you have enough evidence to lock someone up for such an excessive amount of time, then they should’ve been charged already.

A traffic stop is a detainment. Did you know you can hold someone for 48 hours in California over a traffic stop? That’s the argument being made here. A detainment is not an arrest. Brett, if you held someone for 48 hours at a traffic stop, you would be in prison and they’d get a monster payout. It’s so unrealistic that it doesn’t happen. Feasibly with your penal code anything that requires time in jail could be extended to a 72 hour sentence. Make a distinction between felony detainment and misdemeanor detainment if that suits you. But for God’s sake, at least acknowledge that this is unfair for criminals and has the potential to be abused. Can’t it be abused?

What’s the point here if you’re not going to address the other things I’ve written? In real life, people in jail are there for charges. They are awaiting sentencing. There is no judicial process for this in game. They’ve already been arrested, evidence exists. Here, you DON’T need evidence to detain someone to what is equivalent to 144 DUI arrests added up if you’re just “investigating.” There are no charges, there is no sentencing yet. If you applied that to a real life DUI hold in the drink tank, that is more than a month spent inside a drunk tank. You don’t need any evidence outside of someone else saying you did it. If you don’t see the potential for abuse from that, then I don’t know what else to say to you. All I’ll say is that if you think that’s an accurate depiction of criminal processes, you’re going to need to take a civics class.

If you don’t want to be detained for an hour on a 20 minute sentence, then change the penal code you wrote. It doesn’t fix it to adjust the time period to 48 hours or 24 hours, but as you’ve claimed it’s apparently very important for investigations, so it’s a compromise. You approach the argument but you’re not getting the point. A person in jail doesn’t wait for a year while a DUI sentencing is taking place that gives them a 30 day sentence. A person who gets arrested for assault with a deadly weapon, a felony, may wait for a period of time in jail prior to sentencing, but they’d already been charged. This 72 hour rule doesn’t mean you’ve been charged, it means they’re still investigating. As with my ratio, for that 1 year someone is waiting for sentencing without charge. Yes, people wait in jail prior to trial. Nobody had argued against that. But there’s no trials here. And you are charged with a crime if you’re going to trial. A detective on GTAW has two options when arresting someone: - Arrest them with the evidence they have on hand. - If you have no evidence, you can arbitrarily detain them for 72 hours until they confess or, thoroughly unlikely due to lack of scripting and personal experience with people, you gather evidence. Here’s a fact for you: when I ran a 160 player department at another community, 9 times out of 10 anyone involved in a murder investigation refused to cooperate on an IC level. That’s not a realistic rate, but that is the rate we dealt with and we were satisfied to deal with. But on an OOC level when they noted our attitudes towards portraying detectives correctly and providing them with interesting interactions, they cooperated by PMing us relevant materials, like “you’ll find gun powder in X” or “let me know where you search and I’ll let you know what you find.” What was the detainment period allowed? 30 minutes. The sentencing? Harsh sometimes. If we had probable cause to arrest them for another crime, we could hold them as long as we were ingame while interviewing them or investigating it. So we’d have them under arrest for that minor crime but not bring them to prison until we were done or dissatisfied with the answer. Unless they had to go, it would take 1-2 hours. Police do not need to catch criminals. This isn’t a simulation. They do not need to convict every criminal. It’s a roleplay server, and you make it fun for everyone. This rule, through the testimony of several players, is not fun for illegal role players. You may think it is standard for legal and illegal roleplayers to not like eachother, but to me this is heavily abnormal and not conducive to good roleplay. None of the people arguing against you are primarily illegal roleplayers. I’ve been an LEO roleplayer for 5 years. Your system doesn’t entice any OOC cooperation. It entices people to shoot any detective who approaches them who wants to ask questions about a case. It entices people to “reach for their waistband.” I know this from first hand experience at that community, arguably one of the main places that many GTAW participants come from. I was ambushed and killed for taking pictures of criminals. I’ve been kidnapped for talking to people. When the mindset changed and criminals knew we weren’t out to jam them up? They cooperated and we had a lot more fun together. Those are highly unrealistic in a city like Los Santos, where the gangs should not be killing random detectives and kidnapping people. You may think your perspective dissuades this, but it promotes it. You should ask FM what their attitude is for unrealistic gangs and out of place reactions - just as you can’t kill people in droves as a gang, you cannot arrest everyone you come across. Gang kidnappings of police and killings of detectives on cases are rare and turn into massive ordeals where every federal policing agency from the postal inspectors to the ATF respond to and help investigate. Make these things matter when they happen, not commonplace, and the only way to do that is by compromising here. Don't misconstrue me saying this as saying that I have some bias against PD or I dislike them. But when you give players optional tools like this without a lot of oversight, it will be abused eventually.

That gives some surety but regardless of that a player shouldn’t have to spend an arbitrarily longer amount of time due to an investigation. The investigation should be complete by the time they’re in the jail cell, if not then, then within the timeframe of incremental sentencing. Time served should be a thing. In addition there’s a lack of infrastructure and oversight to support this on an IC basis for people who have illegitimate reasons to be held that long, so they’re punished as a result. At this point, I’ve said my piece. If government do not want to change it or at minimum air out arguments point by point like people in this thread have, then I see no point continuing this argument. Things will change at some point through some means, if not by us then by someone down the line. It’s not a tenable system to have in place.

Prison time scaling isn’t an IC issue. You’re telling me if someone appeals a 30 minute DUI sentence, it’s literally treated realistically as a 30 minute sentence? So in Los Santos, murderers are let go after 24 hours on an IC basis? The way it’s always been done is they are arrested and should treat the sentence as though their character has been in prison for a long time. That’s not a reasonable IC standard to say your character was literally in prison for 24 hours on a murder, that’s just part of the game scaling. If he were complaining about a long sentence he brought on himself, I’d agree with you, but he was held in jail for 72 hours on a 2 hour sentence. You want that to be taken IC? Then San Andreas is literally violating the rights of everyone they arrest, and the population of San Andreas is only 200 people. As I said in my prior posts: 2 hour sentences extended to 72 hours are literally 36 times the amount of time you’d be spending in jail for the 2 hour sentence. That’s not fair on the player. You don’t mind it because it personally benefits you. It does not benefit the criminal and it’s not conducive to quality roleplay. The authority is given by the penal code, so that’s why we want it changed. The penal code is well written and an excellent guideline EXCEPT for that point.

Provide quality police roleplay first and foremost. Policing the community is an IC issue.

You quoted the wrong person, Exploits. I’m in agreement with you.

If the resources don’t exist, the punishment shouldn’t exist. It’s not really feasible or fun. I remember this being the case on LSRP when government was inactive and we tacked on “you can request an attorney if one is available.” Even still, most of the time we arrested people pretty quickly without needing much of a detainment period. I hate to bring up other communities because ultimately that doesn’t mean jack shit in the context of GTAW, but I think it’s better to emulate success and also get rid of the issues that made success into stagnation.

Scaling down should be done ultimately. 24 hours should honestly be the maximum amount of time you could be detained, only with the approval of a judge.

If we can’t get rid of 72 hours entirely, I think I’d be happy with a compromise of 48 hours. I still really want it to solely be used when a judge approves it, but I don’t mind if that’s not feasible to you guys. 48 hours would still be 24 times the sentence of 2 hours, but I think it might be easier to stomach.

I’m not sure what server that was but it probably wasn’t very successful in the long run. I mean no disrespect to you in saying that.

There’s no prison and that’s, once again, very egregious. It’s a videogame. Police arrest people and they are guilty until proven innocent. 72 hours for what would be a 2 hour sentence is 36 times the amount of time you would be spending. Those murderers were not detained for 72 hours until evidence was found. You can’t detain someone for that long. In a state like CA, it would be actually realistic to constantly interact with the same people you’ve arrested multiple times already. Did you know the person who murdered a police officer in Cape Cod several years ago in Massachusetts had something to the tune of 196 arrests, many of which were felonies? Long-term prison sentences happen but there is a lot of DAs and prosecutors who don’t give a shit and drop charges or offer plea deals. I don’t think you’ve done much illegal roleplay, or if you have, you haven’t done it to the point where malicious police can ruin your day or your RP. There’s no oversight and zero interaction with players in jail.

Then 72 hours is egregious, and that is not nearly enough evidence in the USA to detain someone for that significant of a time period. Even famous murderers were permitted to stay at home while investigations were happening until some pieces of evidence were found that linked them. A single witness is not enough evidence. This is a videogame and we don’t have a functioning judicial system. So you can’t file a habeus corpus writ.

The investigation should be done before an arrest unless it’s an egregious offense. 72 hour detainments don’t happen when there’s a suspicion of a crime - it happens when there’s at least some portions of evidence to present. If you’re telling me you don’t have any evidence at all, you would have to let a suspect go. Even then, this is the ONLY time where a real life equivalency is made in the penal code. It’s inconsistent. It should be adjusted to fit within the context of the game. If you can’t find evidence to support an arrest within a few hours, you shouldn’t have made an arrest in the first place.

You’re poisoning the well by saying before an argument can even start “its unpopular so there’s no use addressing it.” Not a good look, don’t be so hard set in your opinions that you’re unwilling to even address an argument. Even if it were unpopular, that doesn’t mean you ignore it. Ideas have merit, we’re not a collection of randoms taking a dump on government’s chest. I’m not going to list my videogame roleplay credentials here and at other communities but we have enough experience to tell you this is going to be an issue, if not now, then later. I don’t even know the two other primary posters here spamming paragraphs at you, but I do know what they’re arguing from - mindset is everything in legal faction roleplay. If you have a bad mindset, it can bite you in the ass when illegal faction roleplayers get wind of it. I don’t know you so I don’t know what your mindset is, but from your unwillingness to hear my arguments, it doesn’t give me confidence. I guarantee the only reason people aren’t spamming this thread is because it’s in a sub forum that gets a lot of suggestions that take priority and many people have yet to experience it ingame, but they will. You wrote the penal code - good work, but this is a glaring issue that you should address (not meaning change, but at least air our concerns beyond brushing them off.) I’ll have people come in here to show you it’s not just me and these other dudes. I don’t mean any disrespect by any of this either, but I do take it as disrespectful when someone bypasses my arguments when I’ve taken time to make them even if I’m passionate about it. This is a dialogue, so let’s discuss it.

This isn't an IC issue that should be settled through IC means. The police officer doesn't get sued, the department does. They might get suspended, but likely after a long investigation period. It is unfair to the suspect that on a 30 minute charge they can be held for 144 times the amount of time they would serve. If there was a malicious player, they could fabricate an "investigation" and arrest someone for 72 hours. Obviously you can't do it so openly, but it would be very easy if that player actually committed a crime. If there's no evidence at all, you can detain someone for 72 hours and be a dick just for the sake of it if you know on an OOC level they did, in fact, commit a crime. What's to stop a metagaming detective from detaining someone they saw murder a guy in a screenshot thread for 72 hours? The player could easily be satisfied with the explanation that "we have sources that told us about this." There's no oversight, and they spend 3 days banned. Here's a solution: if you don't have enough evidence to convict, then don't make an arrest. Arrest them once enough evidence has been gathered. Don't inflate sentences to such a ridiculous amount of time just because of an investigation. If there's evidence that needs to be gathered for a conviction that hasn't been within the timeframe taken to arrest someone on a small charge already? Then they should be released. If you said X amount of hours can be inflated for further investigation, for instance, if there's a total of above 24 hours of imprisonment being weighed, sure - hold them that long. But on a 30 minute or a 2 hour charge, that's unacceptable. If you're investigating someone for a murder or a massive bank robbery? By all means, hold them for 72 hours if that's your heart's desire. But for misdemeanors and crimes that are below 24 hours total? That's whacky. There already are comments about how unfair this system is. They're right here in this thread. Just because there aren't comments you publicly hear about doesn't mean they don't exist. I first discovered this issue from a faction member complaining about it. They didn't want to address it anywhere because they were completely dejected with its existence. Not only were they dejected with its existence, it also eroded their confidence in the quality of legal factions. I am completely dejected that this exists. It is egregious. If there's no riots right now, they will begin once this becomes a common tactic against illegal factions. If there was active roleplay in the lockup, if detention officers existed, then it'd be reasonable. If there was an active prison, maybe. But none of these things exist. No judiciary exists to determine these things in-game. The player who started this thread told a story in his initial post where he waited 8 hours in-game and nothing happened. He was held for 72 hours on what would be a 2 hour sentence. Sweep away the realism argument. It's a videogame, cool. 72 hours for 2 hour charges is inherently mirroring real life. That's not gamey. And it's thoroughly unfair. If you don't agree? Then I guarantee you if you put it to a public poll, people might shock you with their opinions. It's rather naive to believe that's fair to a suspect. And if you believe this is a minority opinion, I will be on the pulpit arguing against this until this server closes. It will dissuade roleplay and even dissuade new players. I don't mean that as a threat, but it is equivalent to dismissing corrupt characters from PD both on an IC and OOC level. It's setting back progress and punishes people on not only an IC level, but also an OOC level. PD are still more than capable of investigating and convicting people of crimes outside of a 72 hour timeframe, they don't even need to arrest or detain someone during that process. I hate to bring other communities up, but I know this from first hand experience.

It should be treated as a videogame when it comes to 72 hour holds. That's an excessive amount of time for an investigation and it should be something a judge authorizes. No 2 hour charge warrants being held for 72 hours for an investigation. That's literally 36 times the amount of time you'd serve for the offense - only for an INVESTIGATION. If someone wants to jam you up because you acted like a dickhead, they have open and ample opportunity to jam you up because they can fabricate any reason to commence an "investigation" into charges you've already been arrested for. There's zero accountability for a player outside of committing to an internal affairs report, which will take a long time to process. In real life, you're not held at prison for a week while they search for "evidence" of a DUI arrest. They let you go in the morning if it's your first offense. The total time they hold people for in real life is actually less than the current time you're granting detainment for. If the times aren't acceptable for those charges, then adjust the time. There is nothing preventing a detective from claiming they "need more evidence" on a very clear-cut case with no recourse but a very lengthy IA process. This isn't tenable under the current systems the server has. If there's not an active judiciary, then you simply can't give a faction the power to essentially ban someone for several days with the only recourse being a week-long IA investigation. Mathematically... A drunk driving charge is 30 minutes. If we compare that to a real life hold for a first offense, that is 6% the total of a real life imprisonment for about 8 hours, which is generally how long it takes before you can bail out in the morning or police issue a citation for a court appearance (where they probably would in LA). There's no bail system on this community. In addition, in real life DUI arrests generally only result in probation if it's a first offense unless it's a very hard-charging conservative county with DAs that are willing to prosecute the case. LS mirrors LA, which means you can bet your bottom dollar they're going to let a first DUI case go outside of the station jail and likely issue a citation for a court appearance within the future, so 8 hours hold is realistic. Then you'd get probation. So 30 minutes out of 8 hours is 6%. That means, compared to real life, the sentence in-game is probably around 6% that of a real life DUI arrest. Guess what 30 minutes out of 72 hours is? That's .6%. So you're spending 144 times the amount of time you'd spend in a real life holding cell. 144 times. Let's say you're in jail for 8 hours in game with the same rate. Under this same system for lower crimes, if adjusted for larger-scale crimes, you'd be spending 1152 hours in prison. That means 48 days. If you had a real life DUI conviction and served the same amount of time (30 days), that means you'd be in jail for 11 years. With that ratio, it means any lower-tier misdemeanor crime (of which DUI arguably is,) you're facing a ridiculous amount of time in comparison for the sentence just for an investigation. Courts exist on the community but it follows the standard "guilty until proven innocent" that many communities have, and that's simply due to a lack of manpower within the judiciary. That is egregious and a civil rights violation. It would arguably fall under "cruel and unusual" when within constitutional framing. Unless there's an incredibly active courts faction, this sort of thing should not exist. I guarantee you, as I've already said, as guns proliferate, people will shoot their way out of ANY crime committed in front of police. They will not choose to cooperate. It WILL happen. This isn't hyperbole. Unless they have no guns at all, like currently, they will find a way to get cops to kill them. When I first heard this "investigation clause" existed, I didn't believe it was real. This thread actually made me discover it. That's not a beef against you or anyone else involved in government, but unless there's significant oversight for when these holds are used, you are going to thoroughly demotivate illegal faction roleplayers and isolate them.

The classic way to avoid sentencing back then was to "reach for your waistband" or pull out a fake gun. This will start happening.