Discussion: Illegal Faction Revamp

[Inked]

56 minutes ago, Phased said:

-

 

To piggyback on this; part of the issue is because of the format in which IFM hands out suppliers their guns. Dropping a supplier their pitiful amount of guns all at once and saying "good luck little buddy, have fun. we'll see you in a month" does nothing because there's neither a benefit or incentive to stretch the weapons out for any length of time or to any larger number of groups/individuals. This is part of a much bigger problem that extends past factions and has to do with the gun economy as a whole.  

 

Dropping factions a predetermined amount of firearms or drugs for being a faction does not help our economies in any way. It actually creates the very problems people have consistently been complaining about for ages now. It's not just the amount that's laughable, it's that it's literally avoiding these in-game economies and markets that exist to just provide factions with something as a reward to make them feel good about being a faction. It's the exact opposite direction and illustrates how actually little this tier system is needed.

 

There are plenty of people in this community who have experience with the gun/drug economy issues and how to resolve them, and have been numerously forthcoming about that. But until IFM starts seeing the players as a resource in wealth of knowledge and experience, they'll remain issues. 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Inked

[Lei]

I think it's universally agreed upon that the current system in place is begging for a revamp. Whether or not this proposed tier system is the answer, I'm personally not sure - for the same reasons others have cited before me. In my book, anything that promotes players to join factions as opposed to creating their own 10 page flop you routinely see week-by-week is a positive change. Rewarding factions for their longevity and quality over a certain span of time is something I'm all for. What those rewards are however must try to not negatively impact the ethos of the proposed system.

 

Flaws are inevitable (take OOC dealing), it's about being able to control them as best you can. I touched on this on my reply to the IFM supplier census results thread, to which the thread was locked shortly after, so I'll repost it here:

 

"I struggle to understand why major gun & drug suppliers are assigned to characters rather than factions. Doing it this way essentially centralizes such an impactful asset to players who probably don't deserve it in the first place, hence the numerous public bans as of late. Having major suppliers assigned to factions doesn't eradicate the issue of OOC dealing, but instead evens out the playing field in terms of responsibility. Guns for example should trickle down from faction leadership/administration who assumingly are already trusted members of IFM, thus minimizing the incentive to supply Discord buddies on the account of it reflecting very poorly on an entire faction, resulting in consequence. It's worked in other communities and it can work here.

 

The fact that you can namechange, keep your supplier and start again in a new faction is a testament to how backwards the current system works."

 

Anyway, we've come a long way from where we were a year ago in terms of transparency and community discussions in regards to the illegal faction scene. This can only be a good thing going forward.

 

 

[ZaE]

57 minutes ago, Phased said:

Honestly giving 3 guns to an entire faction is hilarious. 

 

28 minutes ago, Cartoonhead said:

The current system is broken, this proposed system is worse.

Tis all of have to say...

[arkan]

6 hours ago, UTOPIA said:

Disenfranchised role-players who are anti-social, low quality role-players who are broadly disliked by the illegal faction community but manage to get by are now entitled to free stuff.

 

[Theory]

Deciding a faction's drops based on their tier or how long they've been around seems a little strange to me. I've been away from the illegal scene for a little while but I felt it was missing any realistic trickling down for firearms and drugs onto the streets. There's very little incentive for suppliers to pass weapons off where they'll end up on the streets because money is more of an out-of-character asset than anything. Our characters don't really have bills or other mandatory payments to make. I remember there being concerns before about out of character relationships with car leaderships or independent suppliers allowing for better supplies to end up in the favour of those who are close OOC. However, if you skip the suppliers and hand weapons & drugs out straight to street factions, you entirely remove any connection for street gangs with the organised side and independent suppliers. 

 

If weapon & drug drops are taken out from the solution, I feel like many of the tier perks don't really offer much incentive for street gangs. Turfs being promised to factions because they've been around for an amount of time for them to officially claim a turf out of character removes any real potential for competition to feel they can start up in that area and try to push them out. Not sure if I'm misreading or misunderstanding the purpose of these turfs, but it seems like it could only bring a negative impact.

 

Are current faction leaders given access to an area where they can vote and participate in discussions relevant to these sorts of issues? Discussions like these could/should start with them, allowing people with actual experience with the systems as they are at this current moment to come up with ideas before bringing it to the whole community to finally settle on a solution that benefits the community as a whole.

[khadijeh.]

1 hour ago, Phased said:

Honestly giving 3 guns to an entire faction is hilarious.  The issue with people selling firearms to such small pools of people is because the quantity issued to suppliers is laughable.  Yes on LS-RP people stockpiled guns, but I'd argue a faction having stockpile access is a far smaller issue than the insane level of micromanagement that suppliers get.

 

I know a person with supplier status who through IC  means has every gun accounted for day one of their drops, meaning that they get to roleplay being a gun supplier for two days because factions aren't approaching other factions for small quantities.  What's the point in classing someone as a gun supplier if they have 5 knives and less than a gun per day to sell.  I understand the potential problems but I can say for certain - as someone who was an admin in LS-RP, it's far easier to deal with shitters DMing with guns than the crackpot level of moderation involved for suppliers to end up with 20 guns a month.   The entire reason I haven't played on the server for a month - and that I only saw this because someone sent it to me is because the level of self-imposed work staff members here give themselves is killing illegal roleplay and Honey is the only one that I've ever seen have anything close to a rational thought regarding illegal roleplay.   Even reading this I am certain it wasn't her idea to put 3 guns a month on that list.

 

Make it so suppliers can access actual warehouses themselves and self-moderate - if someone abuses it deal with that instead of building systems with more red tape than the DMV to get your hands on a pair of TEC-9's and make it so supplier applications are always open - but only long term factions can apply for them.  This will bring down the absurd prices of  50k a gun in some cases, and if people aren't hugely limited they will be more inclined to sell to more parties.   

 

I can't imagine how absurd it looks when people have these great stories for bringing in illegal firearms and they come back with 12 pistols and 5 knives because someone high up thinks there are about 20 guns on the street in America.

Just to clarify - although you know one person with supplier, not all suppliers get the same amounts. They are varied. I definitely agree that there are a lot of barriers around illegal roleplay that really shouldn't be there. They've been formed after years of bureaucracy and the server is not at the same place it was in 2018/2019/2020 in terms of the diversity of the admin team or standard of roleplay across the board. I'm not quite sure what you mean about the warehouses and self-moderation? It sounds interesting though if you'd hmu and elaborate a little?

 

I understand the current issue with lack of guns to some though.

 

8 minutes ago, Inked said:

 

To piggyback on this; part of the issue is because of the format in which IFM hands out suppliers their guns. Dropping a supplier their pitiful amount of guns all at once and saying "good luck little buddy, have fun. we'll see you in a month" does nothing because there's neither a benefit or incentive to stretch the weapons out for any length of time or to any larger number of groups/individuals. This is part of a much bigger problem that extends past factions and has to do with the gun economy as a whole.  

 

Dropping factions a predetermined amount of firearms or drugs for being a faction does not help our economies in any way. It actually creates the very problems people have consistently been complaining about for ages now. It's not just the amount that's laughable, it's that it's literally avoiding these in-game economies and markets that exist to just provide factions with something as a reward to make them feel good about being a faction. It's the exact opposite direction and illustrates how actually little this tier system is needed.

 

There are plenty of people in this community who have experience with the gun/drug economy issues and how to resolve them, and have been numerously forthcoming about that. But until IFM starts seeing the players as a resource in wealth of knowledge and experience, they'll remain issues. 

 

Some of my above response might also be beneficial to you too, I definitely agree IFM as a whole needs to use players who have more experience, and have already done all the trial and error in the past as more than "players", but rather people who could be helpful advisors. A lot of the internal information of how suppliers work is gatekept by management for good reason to avoid potential abuse, but the supplier system itself would also need a revamp, and has needed one for some time but good ideas keep getting shot down through different channels. This is something that definitely needs to be addressed, bar from the tier system.

 

8 minutes ago, Lei said:

I think it's universally agreed upon that the current system in place is begging for a revamp. Whether or not this proposed tier system is the answer, I'm personally not sure - for the same reasons others have cited before me. In my book, anything that promotes players to join factions as opposed to creating their own 10 page flop you routinely see week-by-week is a positive change. Rewarding factions for their longevity and quality over a certain span of time is something I'm all for. What those rewards are however must try to not negatively impact the ethos of the proposed system.

 

Flaws are inevitable (take OOC dealing), it's about being able to control them as best you can. I touched on this on my reply to the IFM supplier census results thread, to which the thread was locked shortly after, so I'll repost it here:

 

"I struggle to understand why major gun & drug suppliers are assigned to characters rather than factions. Doing it this way essentially centralizes such an impactful asset to players who probably don't deserve it in the first place, hence the numerous public bans as of late. Having major suppliers assigned to factions doesn't eradicate the issue of OOC dealing, but instead evens out the playing field in terms of responsibility. Guns for example should trickle down from faction leadership/administration who assumingly are already trusted members of IFM, thus minimizing the incentive to supply Discord buddies on the account of it reflecting very poorly on an entire faction, resulting in consequence. It's worked in other communities and it can work here.

 

The fact that you can namechange, keep your supplier and start again in a new faction is a testament to how backwards the current system works."

 

Anyway, we've come a long way from where we were a year ago in terms of transparency and community discussions in regards to the illegal faction scene. This can only be a good thing going forward.

 

 

As above, the supplier system is also outdated and needs some love too.

 

1 minute ago, Theory said:

Deciding a faction's drops based on their tier or how long they've been around seems a little strange to me. I've been away from the illegal scene for a little while but I felt it was missing any realistic trickling down for firearms and drugs onto the streets. There's very little incentive for suppliers to pass weapons off where they'll end up on the streets because money is more of an out-of-character asset than anything. Our characters don't really have bills or other mandatory payments to make. I remember there being concerns before about out of character relationships with car leaderships or independent suppliers allowing for better supplies to end up in the favour of those who are close OOC. However, if you skip the suppliers and hand weapons & drugs out straight to street factions, you entirely remove any connection for street gangs with the organised side and independent suppliers. 

 

If weapon & drug drops are taken out from the solution, I feel like many of the tier perks don't really offer much incentive for street gangs. Turfs being promised to factions because they've been around for an amount of time for them to officially claim a turf out of character removes any real potential for competition to feel they can start up in that area and try to push them out. Not sure if I'm misreading or misunderstanding the purpose of these turfs, but it seems like it could only bring a negative impact.

 

Are current faction leaders given access to an area where they can vote and participate in discussions relevant to these sorts of issues? Discussions like these could/should start with them, allowing people with actual experience with the systems as they are at this current moment to come up with ideas before bringing it to the whole community to finally settle on a solution that benefits the community as a whole.

The first thing I've boldened is what we've dubbed a "faction bubble", this is something we want to avoid and welcome suggestions to adjust this to make sure it doesn't. What other suggestions do you think would be good for street gangs? This idea was primarily supported by street gangs.

 

Current faction leaders do have areas to discuss all of this within the IFM Discord, yes they do. This is something we have pushed forwards to include all leadership instead of limiting just to the council (which has been disbanded) and now includes all leaders. We are also looking at expanding the Discord to include more knowledgeable people.

 

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As a whole, thank you all for your feedback. This system is not perfect, I have my own personal gripes with it too and it seems many of you see things the same way I do and notice the issues and flaws with this system. It will be next to impossible to find a flawless system, and all the ideas, suggestions, criticisms here are really appreciated. I think that faction management as a whole needs to be more open to these kinds of topics as long as they're staying on track so we can get beneficial content from it and good ideas. Both @Inked and @Phased you've been massive helps in the past and still have ideas contributing towards some changes in the background that haven't been pushed onto public threads yet so thank you personally to both of you for giving your cents here too.

[Frezemis]

Quote

• Unofficial Group

  • This is the basic tier, anyone can post their thread and claim to be an unofficial group. 

  • They get no benefits.

  • They must have existed for at least 1 month before being able to apply to be a faction.

 

Question, I'm not sure this was raised but will unofficial groups be restricted from receiving properties at all or is that something for them to obtain on their own?

[khadijeh.]

12 minutes ago, Frezemis said:

Question, I'm not sure this was raised but will unofficial groups be restricted from receiving properties at all or is that something for them to obtain on their own?

It is something they would still need to go through Property Management for if they wanted anything, same as it is currently. In that sense, nothing would change.

[DONALDTRUMPFROMFLATS]

Increase the number of supplier guns by 2x or 3x and give more people supplier, we are roleplaying in America, people shouldn't need to go full on DAY-Z to loot a corpse for a gun.

[sk8]

1 hour ago, honey. said:

Just to clarify - although you know one person with supplier, not all suppliers get the same amounts. They are varied. I definitely agree that there are a lot of barriers around illegal roleplay that really shouldn't be there. They've been formed after years of bureaucracy and the server is not at the same place it was in 2018/2019/2020 in terms of the diversity of the admin team or standard of roleplay across the board. I'm not quite sure what you mean about the warehouses and self-moderation? It sounds interesting though if you'd hmu and elaborate a little?

 

I understand the current issue with lack of guns to some though.

 

Some of my above response might also be beneficial to you too, I definitely agree IFM as a whole needs to use players who have more experience, and have already done all the trial and error in the past as more than "players", but rather people who could be helpful advisors. A lot of the internal information of how suppliers work is gatekept by management for good reason to avoid potential abuse, but the supplier system itself would also need a revamp, and has needed one for some time but good ideas keep getting shot down through different channels. This is something that definitely needs to be addressed, bar from the tier system.

 

As above, the supplier system is also outdated and needs some love too.

 

The first thing I've boldened is what we've dubbed a "faction bubble", this is something we want to avoid and welcome suggestions to adjust this to make sure it doesn't. What other suggestions do you think would be good for street gangs? This idea was primarily supported by street gangs.

 

Current faction leaders do have areas to discuss all of this within the IFM Discord, yes they do. This is something we have pushed forwards to include all leadership instead of limiting just to the council (which has been disbanded) and now includes all leaders. We are also looking at expanding the Discord to include more knowledgeable people.

 

---

---

 

As a whole, thank you all for your feedback. This system is not perfect, I have my own personal gripes with it too and it seems many of you see things the same way I do and notice the issues and flaws with this system. It will be next to impossible to find a flawless system, and all the ideas, suggestions, criticisms here are really appreciated. I think that faction management as a whole needs to be more open to these kinds of topics as long as they're staying on track so we can get beneficial content from it and good ideas. Both @Inked and @Phased you've been massive helps in the past and still have ideas contributing towards some changes in the background that haven't been pushed onto public threads yet so thank you personally to both of you for giving your cents here too.

The primary issue is we’ve already learned from things like the trucking system that inviting in MMO aspects like tier rewards and shit just promotes progression grind rather than roleplay development. 
 

While I understand trucking is essential to the server economy, I’m using it as an example of what happens when you MMO the shit out of something. Now very few people RP a trucker for fun, they rp it for cash grind/perks. 
 

apply that same basic principle to IFM and factions?? Bad juju. Factions will stop caring about dev and be more about LETS GET TO 3rd TOER CMON GUYS GOTTA GET THE GUNS. 
 

That’s what GTA Online is for. Grow your business through grind, be a biker or a gang leader, reap the cash. If you want that aspect of things then maybe text based heavy rp isn’t viable for your goals and wants out of RP. It doesn’t seem to be the end goal here but it’ll quickly lead down that road.