Your thoughts on law enforcement and jail?

[DasFroggy]

1 hour ago, Moe said:

Rather than looking at a scenario with a win or lose mentality, look at it as character development for your character, regardless of the outcome.

Rather than looking at a mandatory IC time as a win or lose mentality, look at it as character development for your character, regardless of the outcome.

 

That said, your response did little more than sideline my entire point by leaning on vague handwaves and deflection. Let us proceed, shall we?

 

1 hour ago, Moe said:

If a criminal is constantly committing murder and other violent acts, they get points, and when they reach 30 points, they get life or basically a CK.

Cool. When a civilian panics and runs, they are killed immediately exactly once and they end up dead forever. 

 

1 hour ago, Moe said:

I'm gonna assume...

You really shouldn't.

 

1 hour ago, Moe said:

And if you, as a civilian, want to win every situation where you get mugged

And if you, as a criminal, want to win every situation and avoid consequences...

 

1 hour ago, Moe said:

Mind you, I am a legal roleplayer too, so it's not like I'm benefitting from this, but it's simply inappropriate to force someone to roleplay in jail if they don't want to. In fact, they are rewarded when they roleplay in jail by having their timer go down 3x faster. So them not roleplaying in jail, only makes it worse for them. 

Mind you, I am a criminal roleplayer too (I provide black hat security assessments) so it's not like I'm benefitting from this, but it's simply inappropriate to force someone to be dead. 

 

That's it. There is nothing more to this statement. Once the CK is carried out, there is practically no means to shorten the sentence. That civilian character is gone forever.

 

1 hour ago, Moe said:

Also, the same applies for legal and criminal roleplayers. When legal roleplayers run from criminals, they can get CK'ed depending on the situation.

Correct. If they run and are killed (which they usually are) they are CKed. 

 

1 hour ago, Moe said:

When criminals run from cops, they are also prone to being CK'ed depending on the situation.

Not even remotely true unless you drastically overemphasize the extremely limited couple of scenarios in which the police enact a CK, those two being,

- The criminal directly attacks the police or bystanders personally or via proxy, warranting the use of lethal force (and even still occasionally resulting in the use of tasers and rubber bullets!) 

- The criminal commits suicide, by trying to evade the police and miscalculating the risk of navigating an obstacle.

 

Outside of these situations, police will make every attempt to initiate a nonlethal takedown, as their weapons to do so allow exactly that without much risk or difficult in doing so.

 

The moment a civilian runs, the criminal shoots immediately, and if they manage the kill, it is almost always a CK.

 

1 hour ago, Moe said:

It goes both ways.

As pointed out several times now, it really does not. One side has significantly more control with significantly softer consequences for making a mistake.

 

I would be more in agreement if being killed by a criminal meant time spent in a hospital, just as a criminal being arrested means time spent in prison, but it is not. It is an unbalanced setup in which only one side has to face any real, immediate, long lasting consequences for making poor decisions.

Edited March 1, 2021 by DasFroggy

[EffPee]

7 minutes ago, DasFroggy said:

Rather than looking at a mandatory IC time as a win or lose mentality, look at it as character development for your character, regardless of the outcome.

 

That said, your response did little more than sideline my entire point by leaning on vague handwaves and deflection. Let us proceed, shall we?

 

Cool. When a civilian panics and runs, they are killed immediately exactly once and they end up dead forever. 

 

You really shouldn't.

 

And if you, as a criminal, want to win every situation and avoid consequences...

 

Mind you, I am a criminal roleplayer too (I provide black hat security assessments) so it's not like I'm benefitting from this, but it's simply inappropriate to force someone to be dead. 

 

That's it. There is nothing more to this statement. Once the CK is carried out, there is practically no means to shorten the sentence. That civilian character is gone forever.

 

Correct. If they run and are killed (which they usually are) they are CKed. 

 

Not even remotely true unless you drastically overemphasize the extremely limited couple of scenarios in which the police enact a CK, those two being,

- The criminal directly attacks the police or bystanders personally or via proxy, warranting the use of lethal force (and even still occasionally resulting in the use of tasers and rubber bullets!) 

- The criminal commits suicide, by trying to evade the police and miscalculating the risk of navigating an obstacle.

 

Outside of these situations, police will make every attempt to initiate a nonlethal takedown, as their weapons to do so allow exactly that without much risk or difficult in doing so.

 

The moment a civilian runs, the criminal shoots immediately, and if they manage the kill, it is almost always a CK.

 

As pointed out several times now, it really does not. One side has significantly more control with significantly softer consequences for making a mistake.

 

I would be more in agreement if being killed by a criminal meant time spent in a hospital, just as a criminal being arrested means time spent in prison, but it is not. It is an unbalanced setup in which only one side has to face any real, immediate, long lasting consequences for making poor decisions.

So basically you want criminals to lose a robbery situation where in practically every case (ignoring outside factors) they have the control in the situation.

 

Person with weapon vs person with 500 dollars, who wins in that situation in your headspace?

 

Prison itself is a punishment on a player, it directly impacts their control over the storylines they roleplay in, and they have to now roleplay in a different environment and potentially slow down their development (or bring some brand new points to their development)

 

I personally think CKs are handed out too easy on this server regardless, but your implication that prison isn’t a punishment is senseless. Everytime I’ve been to prison it has thrown a spanner in the works for the storylines I involve my character in, and I see that as a punishment.

[Xaleya]

1 hour ago, Moe said:

Also, the same applies for legal and criminal roleplayers. When legal roleplayers run from criminals, they can get CK'ed depending on the situation. When criminals run from cops, they are also prone to being CK'ed depending on the situation. If you comply with the criminals, you lose the few thousand on you, when criminals comply with cops, they get arrested and sentenced. 

Sometimes you can comply with the cops as criminal and avoid prison/fines/charges/whatever if you demostrate a good rp or give something ICly of same of more value to the other party, same works for civillians.

That's how the Police gets rid of big organizations in real life by forcing one person to help them "by his/her own will" which is simply a extortion made by the cops. You give them whatever they want and maybe they will give you reduced sentence or this

Edited March 1, 2021 by Xaleya

[DasFroggy]

46 minutes ago, EffPee said:

So basically you want...

Why is there this ongoing trend of assuming what I want? Please stop.

 

What I want is equal consequences. I am not saying you cannot shoot the victim and take what you want by force, and I am absolutely onboard with a civilian equivalent to prison, such as time spent in a hospital (which would be just as unappealing as a prison sentence). That said, if the civilian draws a weapon and engages in a shootout, or attacks the criminal with their hands/hammer/switchblade/whatever and they lose the fight, a CK would be entirely appropriate. That's essentially the same situation criminals face when confronting police. They can flee, but if they actually attempt to harm the criminal with immediate and direct physical force, there would be no argument against a CK.

 

Criminals would still have some control, but not so much that it is as imbalanced as the current setup.

 

If you believe having to spend some time enjoying real consequences for a few IC hours is somehow worse than the permanent end of roleplay for another user, you may need to reassess your position.

Edited March 1, 2021 by DasFroggy

[orca112]

8 minutes ago, EffPee said:

Prison itself is a punishment on a player, it directly impacts their control over the storylines they roleplay in, and they have to now roleplay in a different environment and potentially slow down their development (or bring some brand new points to their development)

With that mindset, everything that goes against your convenience as a player is seen as a punishment. Prison, hospital, medical treatment or any actions that negatively impact your character (fired from their job, withdrawn permissions/licenses, being robbed, getting pulled over for a traffic stop, unpleasant encounters with other characters, etc...).

Your character is always influenced by the world surrounding them and that is what makes the roleplay on GTA - the encounters and interactions with other character regardless of them being good or bad. There are interactions they might not like, may it be getting robbed, injured or put in county jail for commiting a crime. But all of them add up to the character development and subsequently the story that you write / play of that very character. But we are slowly running in circles here with that argument brought up and discussed over and over.

 

[EffPee]

On 3/1/2021 at 5:45 PM, DasFroggy said:

Why is there this ongoing trend of assuming what I want? Please stop.

 

What I want is equal consequences. I am not saying you cannot shoot the victim and take what you want by force, and I am absolutely onboard with a civilian equivalent to prison, such as time spent in a hospital (which would be just as unappealing as a prison sentence). 

 

Criminals would still have some control, but not so much that it is as imbalanced as the current setup.

 

If you believe having to spend some time enjoying real consequences for a few IC hours is somehow worse than the permanent end of roleplay for another user, you may need to reassess your position.

 

 

Please stop assuming what I think.

 

I don't think a prison sentence is worse than a CK, I wasn't actually talking at all about the CKs in this situation. I was making the point that prison is a sufficient punishment in most cases, as I have personally had to deal with having to replace my usual roleplay with prison roleplay. 

 

You keep pushing this point that forcing someone to roleplay something they dont want to do is barbaric or whatever, I'm agreeing to a certain degree. That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. I'd rather have to roleplay in prison than be forced to CK, but I would also rather roleplay in the outside world with the people I want to roleplay with. 

 

Bottom line, punishment is necessary, some punishments may be overwhelming and I do think that a civilian being CKed for running away from a robbery is ridiculous. Anyone that thinks they should run away from a robbery in such a manner should rather be taught the rights and wrongs of what to do in the situation, rather than lose any progress they've made. I feel like it would be difficult to find an experienced roleplayer trying to escape a robbery unless for a very good reason. 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by EffPee

[EffPee]

1 minute ago, orca112 said:

With that mindset, everything that goes against your convenience as a player is seen as a punishment. Prison, hospital, medical treatment or any actions that negatively impact your character (fired from their job, withdrawn permissions/licenses, being robbed, getting pulled over for a traffic stop, unpleasant encounters with other characters, etc...).

Your character is always influenced by the world surrounding them and that is what makes the roleplay on GTA - the encounters and interactions with other character regardless of them being good or bad. There are interactions they might not like, may it be getting robbed, injured or put in county jail for commiting a crime. But all of them add up to the character development and subsequently the story that you write / play of that very character. But we are slowly running in circles here with that argument brought up and discussed over and over.

 

That's the exact point I'm trying to make.

 

Punishment is a necessary evil, anyone that knows me knows that I prefer to roleplay around losses/setbacks rather than winning everything I do. I'm just using punishment for lack of a better word in this case. I'm not going to ignore that I'd rather roleplay outside if I go to prison, but I will still appreciate that I'm there for a reason and I will use the time to develop through it.

[DasFroggy]

14 minutes ago, EffPee said:

I feel like it would be difficult to find an experienced roleplayer trying to escape a robbery unless for a very good reason.

Honestly, if given the chance, I would not use it as a means to legitimately escape, so much as to just explore a different dimension to the scene. Would there be an IC attempt? Sure, but OOC I am fine with being caught again and rewarding the criminals for allowing more than just /b showinv in 3 or I kill u 2... 1...

 

Obviously not everyone is like that, but I am in agreement, the power of the CK in such a low-tier crime makes good roleplay exceptionally difficult. It is an overkill solution to an easily solved problem.

 

18 minutes ago, orca112 said:

But we are slowly running in circles here with that argument brought up and discussed over and over.

I am noticing that this tends to happen whenever the idea of consequences is brought up in general. The immediate argument against it is that consequences are "not fun" and "hinder roleplay", while simultaneously ignoring that those exact same arguments can be made against their activities as well.

 

It is rebuked, and then the topic is allowed to go quiet, and when someone mentions consequences again, the same party acts as if the discussion never happened.

 

[DLimit]

1 hour ago, EffPee said:

So basically you want criminals to lose a robbery situation where in practically every case (ignoring outside factors) they have the control in the situation.

 

Person with weapon vs person with 500 dollars, who wins in that situation in your headspace?

 

Prison itself is a punishment on a player, it directly impacts their control over the storylines they roleplay in, and they have to now roleplay in a different environment and potentially slow down their development (or bring some brand new points to their development)

 

I personally think CKs are handed out too easy on this server regardless, but your implication that prison isn’t a punishment is senseless. Everytime I’ve been to prison it has thrown a spanner in the works for the storylines I involve my character in, and I see that as a punishment.

"Prison itself is a punishment on a player, it directly impacts their control over the storylines they roleplay in, and they have to now roleplay in a different environment and potentially slow down their development (or bring some brand new points to their development)"

You have to be kidding me... I'm a criminal roleplayer, and prison is a PART of criminal R.P.

It doesn't hinder your storyline, it is A PART of your storyline. If you want your story to be perfect? Go write a book. In an R.P. server? One must develop according to the situations that one has put themselves in, which could be at random. In this case? It's going to prison after committing a crime.

[EffPee]

1 minute ago, DLimit said:

"Prison itself is a punishment on a player, it directly impacts their control over the storylines they roleplay in, and they have to now roleplay in a different environment and potentially slow down their development (or bring some brand new points to their development)"

You have to be kidding me... I'm a criminal roleplayer, and prison is a PART of criminal R.P.

It doesn't hinder your storyline, it is A PART of your storyline. If you want your story to be perfect? Go write a book. In an R.P. server? One must develop according to the situations that one has put themselves in, which could be at random. In this case? It's going to prison after committing a crime.

Read my replies after this message please.