Roleplay Isolation Discussion

[UndercoverOrange]

On 11/5/2023 at 6:55 PM, Viscaria said:

I agree that characters need to be punished for crimes committed however that's not quite the discussion, this is about roleplay isolation and not reduced sentencing. I know that 48h holds are to investigate, but does a character need to be out of commission for 2 full days for that to happen? What if LEO's were placed on 48h holds when they get an IA case on them? More often than not if a character rats during an interrogation that will mean their deaths, CK's often occur for when this happens and all it takes is for a cop to inform someone else that it occurred. It can also depend but, characters who are involved in gangs or organized crime organizations are more often than not heavily involved and invested, for many its the only thing they have in their lives and simply can't get out of, want to leave the gang and live a normal life working a normal job? your character knows too much and is likely to get CK'd.

To elaborate a little further, the issue lies in a character being out of commission and offline during the isolation as a result as logging in to have no one to roleplay with is quite literally pointless. Something like parole with ankle monitor instead of 48h investigative holds could be a potential solution, it allows the investigation to continue whilst not forcing a character to be offline during that time. It would provide more roleplay for Correctional Officers and if the suspect cuts the ankle monitor? they're liable to face even more time with the risk given that its a mandatory court case on a probation violation.

as someone from a difficult time zone, my character was in jail for three days when it was supposed to be two. but because I wasn't able to rp with anyone in female jail? I just stayed off and played a different game. I bet if you look at the logs for any female that went to jail, it would be "/me breathes" "/me wants to die" so yeah, its not really ideal

[Kari]

On 11/5/2023 at 8:55 PM, Viscaria said:

I agree that characters need to be punished for crimes committed however that's not quite the discussion, this is about roleplay isolation and not reduced sentencing. I know that 48h holds are to investigate, but does a character need to be out of commission for 2 full days for that to happen? What if LEO's were placed on 48h holds when they get an IA case on them? More often than not if a character rats during an interrogation that will mean their deaths, CK's often occur for when this happens and all it takes is for a cop to inform someone else that it occurred. It can also depend but, characters who are involved in gangs or organized crime organizations are more often than not heavily involved and invested, for many its the only thing they have in their lives and simply can't get out of, want to leave the gang and live a normal life working a normal job? your character knows too much and is likely to get CK'd.

To elaborate a little further, the issue lies in a character being out of commission and offline during the isolation as a result as logging in to have no one to roleplay with is quite literally pointless. Something like parole with ankle monitor instead of 48h investigative holds could be a potential solution, it allows the investigation to continue whilst not forcing a character to be offline during that time. It would provide more roleplay for Correctional Officers and if the suspect cuts the ankle monitor? they're liable to face even more time with the risk given that its a mandatory court case on a probation violation.

LEO's do get suspended for IA investigations. 

48 hour holds are used relatively infrequently, often when the release of a suspect would tarnish a case but charges aren't ready to be filed. Rather frankly, there's not much we can do about this. Releasing them to prison gives them access to a phone to call their friends. Releasing them on parole does the same thing. We are all VERY aware that 48 hour holds aren't very fun for players, but neither is spending 2 months on a case to have it come crumbling down from various external factors such as OOC rulebreaks, metagaming, etc. Allowing suspects to be released on a 48 hour hold in any form to a general population would add yet another way that OOC litigation effects the course of a case and ruins it. It's so, so very simple for stash houses to simply be moved and the entire warrant process is null and void. 

Cases are hard. Getting convictions is harder, and we really, truly do need the tools at our disposal.

Measures to decrease the length of 48 hour holds have been taken, including a now ban on anyone besides a supervisor or detective ordering one. 

Rather simply put, these 48 hour holds aren't often used unless a conviction follows. The only "solution" i see for this is that if a conviction follows a 48 hour hold; the 48 hours they spent in holding are deducted from their total sentence, that way it's not a +2 to any charge. 

To call this "pointless" only sees one side of the story. It very much so has a point and use case for the other side. 

[COUNTY SUPREMACY]

41 minutes ago, Kari said:

LEO's do get suspended for IA investigations. 

48 hour holds are used relatively infrequently, often when the release of a suspect would tarnish a case but charges aren't ready to be filed. Rather frankly, there's not much we can do about this. Releasing them to prison gives them access to a phone to call their friends. Releasing them on parole does the same thing. We are all VERY aware that 48 hour holds aren't very fun for players, but neither is spending 2 months on a case to have it come crumbling down from various external factors such as OOC rulebreaks, metagaming, etc. Allowing suspects to be released on a 48 hour hold in any form to a general population would add yet another way that OOC litigation effects the course of a case and ruins it. It's so, so very simple for stash houses to simply be moved and the entire warrant process is null and void. 

Cases are hard. Getting convictions is harder, and we really, truly do need the tools at our disposal.

Measures to decrease the length of 48 hour holds have been taken, including a now ban on anyone besides a supervisor or detective ordering one. 

Rather simply put, these 48 hour holds aren't often used unless a conviction follows. The only "solution" i see for this is that if a conviction follows a 48 hour hold; the 48 hours they spent in holding are deducted from their total sentence, that way it's not a +2 to any charge. 

To call this "pointless" only sees one side of the story. It very much so has a point and use case for the other side. 

Yes but an IA investigation with suspension doesn’t put you in a cell for 48 hours with no RP. You can do literally anything but your LEO duties

[mj2002]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:17 AM, DLimit said:

Solution? Create an alt. 

This shouldn't be overlooked. Very simple and very effective.

[PeopleKind]

On 11/5/2023 at 8:26 PM, Viscaria said:

I agree that 48h holds definitely don't contribute much at all to roleplay, there needs to be some alternative in my opinion with them, and are there cases of characters being put on it due to LEO corruption? I'm not 100% certain on that but if that is the case I definitely don't think it should be allowed. 

 

Make an OOC ruling that 48 hour holds can ONLY be done if there is valid reasons for it. No exceptions IC or OOC.

 

Because I've seen numerous occasions where people get put into 48 hour holds just because the officers can do so (From an LEO perspective, not naming names, but I've seen it). Even when the officer knows both IC & OOC that they arent going to actually bother with an investigation & just want to lock the character up for 48 hours. Granted it's not as common as it used to be, but it does happen.

 

48 hour investigative holds are great when they're actually REQUIRED for high risk investigations like murders & such, but more often than not they're just handed out for petty offenses & put a bad taste in peoples mouths.

 

On the other side, it's hard for a 48 hour hold to be effective when it's needed due to most people just logging out for the 2 days until it's over. Unless you get the persons Discord & Forum name to communicate with & schedule RP regarding the investigation, interrogation, etc etc, it's pretty much useless. Especially if said person doesn't wish to co-operate with it.

 

I think LFM should step in & simply make it so 48 hour holds can ONLY be done when absolutely crucial for an investigation. It's a win win for both sides.

Edited November 7, 2023 by PeopleKind

[Viscaria]

7 hours ago, Kari said:

LEO's do get suspended for IA investigations. 

48 hour holds are used relatively infrequently, often when the release of a suspect would tarnish a case but charges aren't ready to be filed. Rather frankly, there's not much we can do about this. Releasing them to prison gives them access to a phone to call their friends. Releasing them on parole does the same thing. We are all VERY aware that 48 hour holds aren't very fun for players, but neither is spending 2 months on a case to have it come crumbling down from various external factors such as OOC rulebreaks, metagaming, etc. Allowing suspects to be released on a 48 hour hold in any form to a general population would add yet another way that OOC litigation effects the course of a case and ruins it. It's so, so very simple for stash houses to simply be moved and the entire warrant process is null and void. 

Cases are hard. Getting convictions is harder, and we really, truly do need the tools at our disposal.

Measures to decrease the length of 48 hour holds have been taken, including a now ban on anyone besides a supervisor or detective ordering one. 

Rather simply put, these 48 hour holds aren't often used unless a conviction follows. The only "solution" i see for this is that if a conviction follows a 48 hour hold; the 48 hours they spent in holding are deducted from their total sentence, that way it's not a +2 to any charge. 

To call this "pointless" only sees one side of the story. It very much so has a point and use case for the other side. 

I like your suggestion to make the 48 hours count towards time served, it would give people some peace of mind knowing that the hold is serving them in some capacity rather than it just taking their character completely offline with no purpose on their side of things. When I called it "pointless" I did not mean in regards to the investigative side, I mean in regards to the other side as they have quite literally no reason to log in and play on said character unless as mentioned, something is arranged on Discord with the detectives, poor wording from my side.
 

3 hours ago, mj2002 said:

This shouldn't be overlooked. Very simple and very effective.

This is referring to playing on an alt. Yes it definitely is a solid alternative for those who do enjoy alts, not all people do however and I can speak from experience that if a main character in a faction is jailed for an extended time (this is usually long court cases) people will just simply get approved for an alt in the same faction a lot of times, or sometimes people play an alt in other factions, its definitely a good solution but its not a solution for everyone. The idea behind this discussion is to talk about the isolation and if we can find any alternative solutions that will aid in this only occurring when absolutely necessary, as well as finding a potential solution that isn't putting a character in a locked box for the duration without the compromise of investigative roleplay.

[Viscaria]

56 minutes ago, PeopleKind said:

 

Make an OOC ruling that 48 hour holds can ONLY be done if there is valid reasons for it. No exceptions IC or OOC.

 

Because I've seen numerous occasions where people get put into 48 hour holds just because the officers can do so (From an LEO perspective, not naming names, but I've seen it). Even when the officer knows both IC & OOC that they arent going to actually bother with an investigation & just want to lock the character up for 48 hours. Granted it's not as common as it used to be, but it does happen.

 

48 hour investigative holds are great when they're actually REQUIRED for high risk investigations like murders & such, but more often than not they're just handed out for petty offenses & put a bad taste in peoples mouths.

 

On the other side, it's hard for a 48 hour hold to be effective when it's needed due to most people just logging out for the 2 days until it's over. Unless you get the persons Discord & Forum name to communicate with & schedule RP regarding the investigation, interrogation, etc etc, it's pretty much useless. Especially if said person doesn't wish to co-operate with it.

 

I think LFM should step in & simply make it so 48 hour holds can ONLY be done when absolutely crucial for an investigation. It's a win win for both sides.

I too have seen characters placed on hold because they simply can, and I really don't think that's good. The player is essentially given two options, they either talk or they get put on 48h hold, and talking is not really a choice for the majority of illegal characters. Most of the time this is all legit and is the way it should go, but there are times I've seen detectives use this as a means to try and trick a character into confessing evidence, it happens irl and its how detectives often work, but characters should not be placed on 48h holds if they don't in fact have any solid evidence or any investigative roleplay from LEO's, such as matching casings which takes a couple of minutes at most to check.

Example: Character is put into interrogation and the detectives are attempting to trick said character into confessing when they in fact have no real evidence. "Your gun has multiple murders on it" the illegal character knows this to not be true as his gun came from a well known source and had yet to be used in any shooting. "We saw you dragging multiple bodies during a scene, we have that evidence on you" another lie when the character knows hes never dragged a body from a crime scene let alone many.

This is an example of an interrogation and the character was placed on a 48 hour hold as a result, I of course have no idea if there is indeed something to investigate further into, but given the questions asked in interrogation it very much sounds like there was not enough evidence to back up charges and instead was put on 48h hold out of spite that he didn't talk. This leads me to think; How far does something have to go to put someone on a 48h hold? And is it being abused on the basis of IC spite and perhaps corruption? This is something I feel that needs to be looked into, I personally don't believe that these holds should be placed on characters for these things, there should be a solid reasoning regarding evidence and the need to investigate further.

[Martyn]

4 minutes ago, Viscaria said:

I too have seen characters placed on hold because they simply can, and I really don't think that's good. The player is essentially given two options, they either talk or they get put on 48h hold, and talking is not really a choice for the majority of illegal characters. Most of the time this is all legit and is the way it should go, but there are times I've seen detectives use this as a means to try and trick a character into confessing evidence, it happens irl and its how detectives often work, but characters should not be placed on 48h holds if they don't in fact have any solid evidence or any investigative roleplay from LEO's, such as matching casings which takes a couple of minutes at most to check.

Example: Character is put into interrogation and the detectives are attempting to trick said character into confessing when they in fact have no real evidence. "Your gun has multiple murders on it" the illegal character knows this to not be true as his gun came from a well known source and had yet to be used in any shooting. "We saw you dragging multiple bodies during a scene, we have that evidence on you" another lie when the character knows hes never dragged a body from a crime scene let alone many.

This is an example of an interrogation and the character was placed on a 48 hour hold as a result, I of course have no idea if there is indeed something to investigate further into, but given the questions asked in interrogation it very much sounds like there was not enough evidence to back up charges and instead was put on 48h hold out of spite that he didn't talk. This leads me to think; How far does something have to go to put someone on a 48h hold? And is it being abused on the basis of IC spite and perhaps corruption? This is something I feel that needs to be looked into, I personally don't believe that these holds should be placed on characters for these things, there should be a solid reasoning regarding evidence and the need to investigate further.

 

Not trying to be a dick here but this sounds 100percent like an IC issue, if you get put into investigative hold over nothing then hire a lawyer and sue them for it. Adjust the IC laws and make them stricter for the 48 hour hold if need be, this whole OOC approach to in character situations is low-key boring, this discussion/argument should be had ICly between politicians, lobbyists, etc. 

[Viscaria]

22 minutes ago, Martyn said:

 

Not trying to be a dick here but this sounds 100percent like an IC issue, if you get put into investigative hold over nothing then hire a lawyer and sue them for it. Adjust the IC laws and make them stricter for the 48 hour hold if need be, this whole OOC approach to in character situations is low-key boring, this discussion/argument should be had ICly between politicians, lobbyists, etc. 

The topic at hand is roleplay isolation as more often that not it puts characters into a state of stasis in the game environment, very often minor characters are being placed into these as well and for them to hire a lawyer when typically they wouldn't have the funds or knowledge about that wouldn't make a lot of sense from an IC perspective. In an ideal world this would be an IC discussion and it could definitely go that route too, however not everyone has a character that is seated in politics or even one that can bring up the matter to a point of conference either. The claim that this is an IC issue could be said for a number of other things that have occurred, such as LEO helicopter limitations on how long they can hover around a certain location, among many other things.

To touch on that a little further, this discussion isn't about whether or not a character was placed on 48h hold over nothing, its about if it should be allowed for things such as IC spite and corruption, and potential other alternatives to allow characters to roleplay with anything else but walls. IC laws adjusting could definitely be a potential solution as well.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Viscaria

[Io]

the OP in completely good faith: what should we do about characters being needlessly and in many cases OOCly locked away from RP and isolated?

 

yall mfers: create an alt

 

 

 

the POINT here was to discuss alternatives to locking a character out of RP / isolating them from RP on an RP server, and how it's existence seems like an OOC punishment and goes against the intended nature of the server itself. if your answer is "simply do not play that character", you have missed the point and are not here for a productive conversation.

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by ha$h