Law & Order - GTA World Edition (Judiciary Faction Q&A Stuff)

[Medak]

Make weed decrminalized IC. Base something else off California laws.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Medak

[shareef2]

Expunge of old records, pls? I mentioned this in the discord but figured I'd post here for more discussion on the matter. I can't fight 2-3 year old charges, otherwise I would as I know at least one of my charges are wrong. They're all non violent (evading x2 & a citation misdemeanor or something) so I wonder if I'd be eligible under that kind of system, but even if not, expunge of records would be nice. My character ICly would have been a non offender for almost 2 years now, would be cool if he could be treated like a legal citizen again. Considering there was no court system back then (or if there was it wasn't as full fledged) this would be a good way to correct long-term character's records.   

[TNG]

7 hours ago, Medak said:

Make weed decrminalized IC. Base something else off California laws.

Legislation is something which would have to go through legislation by a state government. Seeing as we currently don't have an actual state legislature system, I would reach out to city government and legal faction management to look into possibly integrating this. The JSA isn't meant to be creating legislature since it isn't a legislative body.

 

20 minutes ago, shareef2 said:

Expunge of old records, pls? I mentioned this in the discord but figured I'd post here for more discussion on the matter. I can't fight 2-3 year old charges, otherwise I would as I know at least one of my charges are wrong. They're all non violent (evading x2 & a citation misdemeanor or something) so I wonder if I'd be eligible under that kind of system, but even if not, expunge of records would be nice. My character ICly would have been a non offender for almost 2 years now, would be cool if he could be treated like a legal citizen again. Considering there was no court system back then (or if there was it wasn't as full fledged) this would be a good way to correct long-term character's records.   

This will be discussed and we'll look into creating a system which gives people the ability to request expungement of their old records which occurred with the older (or non-existent) judicial system. However, if this does get pushed in, I would assume it'd be limited to non-violent crimes.

[Rastapasta]

On 11/11/2019 at 4:37 PM, Brett said:

 

One request if we may ask, we would like to hear the experiences you have had with the courts whether they are good or bad, so that we may continue to improve. So if you have these experiences, please post them here as well to share. 

 

I don't have many questions relating to the JSA faction, I would like to say the amount of effort that has went in to it shows and I think it's a good mediator for both Legal and Illegal roleplayers.

 

Going to give a small run-through of my one experience with the JSA as a faction which helped me out a lot as I feel the arrest came out of sub-par RP, had a desync collision with a player and they didn't want to void and I didn't report afterwards and took it IC.. Rolled past them and continued on my way before they then rammed into my car with theirs in front of a crowd, after role playing some injury and stepping out of the car this person came up to my character aggressively and I brandished my firearm (out of fear, little intention to shoot as there was a crowd of 40 people nearby) because of the large crowds when the police got there, I feel they didn't get the correct story and decided to arrest me (which is fair, it's all IC) and they took me for processing to which I plead not guilty.

 

Now, one thing i'm going to point out is that for the charge I could've been back out on the streets in no time, where as the court case had me in prison for a longer time although that being said, I heard that the court system leans in the favour of the player at court which if they do (And it felt that way for me) is positive because it gives people a reason to /WANT/ to go to court where as me personally I attempted to go through court to be able to retain my licenses.

 

Through-out the court case I didn't actually have to partake much other than two posts on the actual court proceeding and a dialogue with the Public Defender and my sentence was dropped to "Failure to abide by state orders" which is a misdemeanour and I was allowed to keep my licenses which was great at the time because my character was doing security, the only negative thing to happen was after it was dropped is that every-time I got stopped by cops they would call back up thinking I was a felon with a PF which caused a few issues.. This happened three times until someone finally got it wiped.

 

Overall, the Judiciary systems bring a lot to the server and continue to develop and it's certainly something the people behind it can be proud of ?

 

 

 

[Denise]

I find it incredibly difficult to locate other lawyers in game. I am concerned with the fact that, if research was done on cases and logs or forum private messages were uncovered, we would see minimal interactions between other attorneys/clients and instead more of a gravitation towards the use of Discord for ease of access or under the impression that the information would be easy to acquire and thus it justifies Discord arrangements. Other groups do not have the same privileges.

 

Another thing I'm concerned with is wait times but it's a hard one to combat. You want to have a thorough and well-roleplayed case, but you also don't want people to be locked up for beyond what they should be as it cripples their enjoyment. I feel as though time served should always be default when it comes to court cases. This is a game, after all.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Denise

[Ink]

I wanted to post in the "Judicial System and You" thread but it was locked with a redirect towards this. I just wanted to share some of my earliest concerns about the judicial system.

 

First and foremost, it's worth saying that the legal roleplay I see come out of this community is actually at a pretty high caliber all around, and I'm really impressed by all the work that people are putting in as well as the OOC research which goes into preparing these cases. Some people understandably criticize how long these cases can take, but I think it's just the nature of the beast and that it's a worthwhile payoff. 

 

My main concern, however, is that for being a heavy roleplay server, it really feels like criminals don't get much in the way of punishments. Considering the amount of OOC work required for a conviction for larger crimes, especially more organized criminal activities, and the amount of work that goes into prosecuting and presiding over these cases, I was stunned to see that the actual IC consequences are so small. I will pick on a recent case just because it's what's at hand and relevant. Lawrence Zampa was just found guilty in a 12-day trial which clearly demonstrated he was a connected member of the mafia which was responsible for multiple extortions throughout the city, and that in connection to a failed extortion (which the defense cleverly was able to maneuver to being dropped from the record, well done!) was brought on to meticulously plan a contract killing. Kenneth Hanna and the officers involved had to expose themselves and have realistically set up their characters for permanent consequences from this mafia faction, who now has decent grounds (by this server's standards) for CK rights on all of them. At the very least, a kidnapping, torturing, and PK would not be unheard of. 

What does Lawrence Zampa get for 12 days of roleplay and shuffling evidence being found guilty of murder for hire and conspiracy at the behest of one of the most violent and ruthless organized crime groups in the city? Nine roleplay months, or nine IRL days. Stefano Giaccone and Eliana Torres participated in a murder in a public business on their own motorcycle, evaded police, and shot at a deputy chasing them through the canyons. Stefano got 10 days. Lawrence walked free the moment the court made a ruling because the time spent having the trial was counted as his punishment. Can you imagine a mafia hitman being caught dead to rights with clear evidence of him plotting a murder of a corporate executive and busienss owner on behest of a crime family walking free from the court room because of "time served?"

 

The consequences on this server are out of whack. While some people argue that "heeeyyy it's GTA so that means half the fun in the game is being a criminal and shooting people" this is a heavy roleplay server, and there are tens of thousands of things to roleplay besides being a violent career criminal. In all other aspects of the server, consequences are proportionate to real life. If my legal character makes enemies with criminals, she can be viciously beaten, threatened, kidnapped, tortured, chopped into pieces, stuffed into all sorts of awful places, chucked off of heights, and any number of awful things. If the criminals really didn't like my character, they can even surreptitiously file for CK permissions and permanently erase my character from the game and force the ultimate OOC consequence of making me unable to play my character ever again, erasing all the work I put into them.

But when criminals are caught dead-to-rights doing awful things on this server, assuming the law enforcement roleplayers can be bothered to invest the dozens of real life hours compiling evidence and building casefiles, and assuming people are willing to risk their characters being permanently CK'd to serve as witnesses or even worse informants/rats, and assuming that after weeks of legal roleplay the defendant is actually found guilty, to see them serve a few days of jail time and then go right back out after "lol months" or "lol years" in a couple weeks so they can go seek out revenge is ridiculous.

The criminals on our server have nothing to fear. Right now, the legal system lacks any and all teeth. The points system? Maybe that'll help, but right now what I'm seeing is criminals get away with literal murder. Maybe on a heavy roleplay server murdering someone shouldn't be "part of the GTA experience" but a matter of great gravity with serious character-shaking repercussions. Maybe criminals should be under a realistic pressure to behave realistically or else face their character's career coming to a swift end. Most of the criminals in the real world don't go around with a gun and an intent to kill, but on GTA:W this is perfectly normal, and the consequences if caught are only a few IRL days of jail time if a bunch of other people are willing to invest dozens of hours on your character's consequences. 

[rootless cosmopolitan]

34 minutes ago, Ink said:

I wanted to post in the "Judicial System and You" thread but it was locked with a redirect towards this. I just wanted to share some of my earliest concerns about the judicial system.

 

First and foremost, it's worth saying that the legal roleplay I see come out of this community is actually at a pretty high caliber all around, and I'm really impressed by all the work that people are putting in as well as the OOC research which goes into preparing these cases. Some people understandably criticize how long these cases can take, but I think it's just the nature of the beast and that it's a worthwhile payoff. 

 

My main concern, however, is that for being a heavy roleplay server, it really feels like criminals don't get much in the way of punishments. Considering the amount of OOC work required for a conviction for larger crimes, especially more organized criminal activities, and the amount of work that goes into prosecuting and presiding over these cases, I was stunned to see that the actual IC consequences are so small. I will pick on a recent case just because it's what's at hand and relevant. Lawrence Zampa was just found guilty in a 12-day trial which clearly demonstrated he was a connected member of the mafia which was responsible for multiple extortions throughout the city, and that in connection to a failed extortion (which the defense cleverly was able to maneuver to being dropped from the record, well done!) was brought on to meticulously plan a contract killing. Kenneth Hanna and the officers involved had to expose themselves and have realistically set up their characters for permanent consequences from this mafia faction, who now has decent grounds (by this server's standards) for CK rights on all of them. At the very least, a kidnapping, torturing, and PK would not be unheard of. 

What does Lawrence Zampa get for 12 days of roleplay and shuffling evidence being found guilty of murder for hire and conspiracy at the behest of one of the most violent and ruthless organized crime groups in the city? Nine roleplay months, or nine IRL days. Stefano Giaccone and Eliana Torres participated in a murder in a public business on their own motorcycle, evaded police, and shot at a deputy chasing them through the canyons. Stefano got 10 days. Lawrence walked free the moment the court made a ruling because the time spent having the trial was counted as his punishment. Can you imagine a mafia hitman being caught dead to rights with clear evidence of him plotting a murder of a corporate executive and busienss owner on behest of a crime family walking free from the court room because of "time served?"

 

The consequences on this server are out of whack. While some people argue that "heeeyyy it's GTA so that means half the fun in the game is being a criminal and shooting people" this is a heavy roleplay server, and there are tens of thousands of things to roleplay besides being a violent career criminal. In all other aspects of the server, consequences are proportionate to real life. If my legal character makes enemies with criminals, she can be viciously beaten, threatened, kidnapped, tortured, chopped into pieces, stuffed into all sorts of awful places, chucked off of heights, and any number of awful things. If the criminals really didn't like my character, they can even surreptitiously file for CK permissions and permanently erase my character from the game and force the ultimate OOC consequence of making me unable to play my character ever again, erasing all the work I put into them.

But when criminals are caught dead-to-rights doing awful things on this server, assuming the law enforcement roleplayers can be bothered to invest the dozens of real life hours compiling evidence and building casefiles, and assuming people are willing to risk their characters being permanently CK'd to serve as witnesses or even worse informants/rats, and assuming that after weeks of legal roleplay the defendant is actually found guilty, to see them serve a few days of jail time and then go right back out after "lol months" or "lol years" in a couple weeks so they can go seek out revenge is ridiculous.

The criminals on our server have nothing to fear. Right now, the legal system lacks any and all teeth. The points system? Maybe that'll help, but right now what I'm seeing is criminals get away with literal murder. Maybe on a heavy roleplay server murdering someone shouldn't be "part of the GTA experience" but a matter of great gravity with serious character-shaking repercussions. Maybe criminals should be under a realistic pressure to behave realistically or else face their character's career coming to a swift end. Most of the criminals in the real world don't go around with a gun and an intent to kill, but on GTA:W this is perfectly normal, and the consequences if caught are only a few IRL days of jail time if a bunch of other people are willing to invest dozens of hours on your character's consequences. 

Thank you for understanding my pain.

[Teddy Broosevelt]

1 hour ago, Ink said:

But when criminals are caught dead-to-rights doing awful things on this server, assuming the law enforcement roleplayers can be bothered to invest the dozens of real life hours compiling evidence and building casefiles, and assuming people are willing to risk their characters being permanently CK'd to serve as witnesses or even worse informants/rats, and assuming that after weeks of legal roleplay the defendant is actually found guilty, to see them serve a few days of jail time and then go right back out after "lol months" or "lol years" in a couple weeks so they can go seek out revenge is ridiculous.

The criminals on our server have nothing to fear. Right now, the legal system lacks any and all teeth. The points system? Maybe that'll help, but right now what I'm seeing is criminals get away with literal murder. Maybe on a heavy roleplay server murdering someone shouldn't be "part of the GTA experience" but a matter of great gravity with serious character-shaking repercussions. Maybe criminals should be under a realistic pressure to behave realistically or else face their character's career coming to a swift end. Most of the criminals in the real world don't go around with a gun and an intent to kill, but on GTA:W this is perfectly normal, and the consequences if caught are only a few IRL days of jail time if a bunch of other people are willing to invest dozens of hours on your character's consequences. 

Well said. LEO personnel have to invest hours upon hours of effort to catch these criminals, all for them to be released on time served or out just a few days later. It doesn't seem like the scales are balanced with regards to this particular issue at all. Then you get criminal RP'ers who feel entitled to not serving their character's consequences IC'ly. I always see the "I'm not here to RP being in jail for 10 days, that's not fun". For some reason, that always ends up winning the argument and then we see reduced sentencing or offline-ticking to appease the criminal RP scene. It's no wonder the LEO's don't always put forth the effort because why bother?

Edited August 11, 2020 by Saidin

[Doosty]

5 minutes ago, Saidin said:

LEO personnel have to invest hours upon hours of effort to catch these criminals, all for them to be released on time served or out just a few days later. It doesn't seem like the scales are balanced with regards to this particular issue at all. Then you get criminal RP'ers who feel entitled to not serving their character's consequences IC'ly. I always see the "I'm not here to RP being in jail for 10 days, that's not fun". For some reason, that always ends up winning the argument and then we see reduced sentencing or offline-ticking to appease the criminal RP scene. It's no wonder the LEO's don't always put forth the effort because why bother?

Well said yourself. I feel incredibly bad for our detective personnel that spend hours upon hours of painstaking investigation just for the person to discover they're being investigated and namechange/CK to avoid consequences. Or even better, NC while in jail itself to completely negate their sentencing and wipe their record clean- and the cycle starts again.  

It's already against the rules to namechange if you have a court case on you, but not if you're in jail or being investigated. Perhaps we should require namechanging while incarcerated to have a cost associated with it? Some form of asset forfeiture is all that comes to mind, but this loses gravity if someone's already on a character they don't care about. 

I understand I am biased as I play an LEO character, I'm with what's been posted above... 

1 hour ago, Ink said:

Right now, the legal system lacks any and all teeth. The points system? Maybe that'll help, but right now what I'm seeing is criminals get away with literal murder.

 

[Bospy]

1 hour ago, Ink said:

The criminals on our server have nothing to fear. Right now, the legal system lacks any and all teeth. The points system? Maybe that'll help, but right now what I'm seeing is criminals get away with literal murder. Maybe on a heavy roleplay server murdering someone shouldn't be "part of the GTA experience" but a matter of great gravity with serious character-shaking repercussions. Maybe criminals should be under a realistic pressure to behave realistically or else face their character's career coming to a swift end. Most of the criminals in the real world don't go around with a gun and an intent to kill, but on GTA:W this is perfectly normal, and the consequences if caught are only a few IRL days of jail time if a bunch of other people are willing to invest dozens of hours on your character's consequences. 

Someone losing their character over them PKing a character is not something suitable for this server. Players will not have any incentive to surrender to law enforcement and roleplay cooperation after they've committed heinous crimes if it means they'll be basically CK'd. A situation like this already took place recently. A player killed two people who weren't permanently killed and immediately went back to roleplaying. The player was nearly CK'd even though his victims were in the streets, doing the same things they had been doing prior to their roleplayed, legitimate deaths.

 

If you have a situation where only criminals are at risk of CK for crimes, then you will encourage them to opt to shoot their way out of arrest or find another way to die. Criminal roleplay on this server is already difficult enough to discover, if you hamstring it any more, you discourage it.

 

I say this as a member of illegal FM, we don't approve CKs on LEOs for doing their jobs, nor would we approve CKs on prosecutors or witnesses unless it involved an illegal party at risk of losing their life or a faction shutting down.

 

On 6/2/2020 at 11:04 PM, Five-oh said:

you'd think that we're actually trying to rid the city of criminals from an OOC standpoint, judging by some of the responses in this thread. i mean, the dedication to cutting down crime is laudable and all, but let's not forget that players committing their characters to the criminal lifestyle is a big part of what keeps the server going.

This is a good reply from two months ago that generally summarizes my thoughts.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Bospy