Law & Order - GTA World Edition (Judiciary Faction Q&A Stuff)

[Serendipity]

”You have to separate the player from the character” as you argue for the character’s right to parole because he was going to quit unless his character survived in some way. OK.

[Jari13X]

Lol yeah sure lets punish criminal roleplays for the little roleplay that they are actually allowed to have.

 

Before thinking about harsher punishments, we should think about enhancing that aspect of RP and what they are allowed to do, I'd say 60%  of criminal roleplayers generate more income through legit businesses than actually doing crime. I'm all for harsher punishments for things like murder, extortion, sex trafficking and so on but let's be honest with ourselves, we need a better criminal atmosphere before any of these ideas can be feasible otherwise you're gonna have a server with a bunch of legal characters.  

Edited August 12, 2020 by Jola

[TNG]

Stay on-topic, guys. Our harshest outlined punishments in the penal code were added at the time under guidance by Nervous (afaik) and it's not something that we'd really want to touch on at this phase. There is a lot to consider before you want to enact any harsher sentencing; perhaps the fact that our prison system (without fault to anyone) simply lacks interaction and roleplay - forcing someone off their character for weeks and months on end is not going to improve roleplay quality, that's just a hoax.

 

To stay on-topic, though. State legislature isn't really meant to be part of the JSA's purview, it's just part of the fact that we lack a state legislature cabinet and the fact that it would be hard and almost useless establishing a functioning one that can spend all the time in the world to discuss whether a charge should be bumped up or down. If you feel like jail sentences should be much harder, I advise you to create a new discussion topic since this isn't something that is single-handedly decided by the JSA. This topic is to share your experiences and concerns about the system itself, not whether we should have harsher or more lenient sentencing.

[Halcyon]

There are some criminals who frequently post on the forums about their things yet ICly you'd never find out, they don't get caught.

 

Maybe bad criminals should take a book from their page.

[Benavides]

I do not think it is productive to push for harsher sentences on illegal role-players. Sure, someone should have consequences over shooting at police officers or murdering another player, however you need to take into account that police officers and other law enforcement characters can just spawn in after a shooting incident and themselves involved in another situation.

 

Personally, I'd only like to see harsher punishments to illegal role-players that are arrested from a case-file or a large scale investigation in order to provide balance legal role-players put into their investigation.

 

I'd say if illegal role-players are performing unrealistic acts and constant back to back shootings, they should be dealt with on an administrative level. I also second what @Bospy said.

[eTaylor]

The consequences for crime are in no way a punishment for the player or the roleplay. People need to step off the jail = punishment OOC mentality. The current judicial system isn’t perfect but it in no way punishes roleplay.

[Kenshi]

7 hours ago, eTaylor said:

The consequences for crime are in no way a punishment for the player or the roleplay. People need to step off the jail = punishment OOC mentality. The current judicial system isn’t perfect but it in no way punishes roleplay.

This. The whole "IC Jail = Ooc punishment" mentality that people have is getting really old.

[DomThomson]

8 hours ago, eTaylor said:

The consequences for crime are in no way a punishment for the player or the roleplay. People need to step off the jail = punishment OOC mentality. The current judicial system isn’t perfect but it in no way punishes roleplay.

I completely agree, it's in no way an OOC punishment. If you do something as your character IC which gets you arrested through IC means will make you go to jail for all of the IC reasons isn't an OOC punishment. To be quite frankly honest, I could use the same argument against what a lot of people are saying with the fact that you shouldn't be able to just use OOC means to skip something which is a result of IC actions. 

[liq]

The judicial system definitely does punish people in unfair ways, simply because, as Bospy has been trying to explain, it limits one's ability to thoroughly try to enjoy any kind of police investigation whatsoever because they know for a fact they'll do hard time in the meaning of days, to weeks, to months, for as little as a player kill, and that's not fair. Required court cases for something so heinous on an IC basis yet something so minuscule on an OOC basis due to killing being an inherent game dynamic should only be applied under CK pretenses.

 

In being apart of overseeing how the Sheriff's Department runs its detective bureau and being a functional member of that command structure myself, it pains me to go through cool role-play just to have a player shut down a whole faction because they lost a character. It pains me even more to watch police role-players throw people in "48 hour holds." like it's nobodies business too. These are all unfair practices to criminal role-players.

 

I'm a legal role-player too. I want people to role-play criminals and crime. It gives me stuff to do when I role-play law enforcement. It's actually why law enforcement exists, because there's people who break the law.

 

I won't dwell into a thesis on the subject, but let this sink in — a legitimate, good and qualitative illegal RPer would rather lie and MD their way out of a police situation than to deal with a police investigation and subsequent judicial process in matters pertaining to these "required cases." And that speaks volumes of its quality when it comes to those who role-play criminals.

 

I believe required court cases are part of the problem. Either set the bar higher, or don't make them as common as they are right now. The fact that people have to wait in holding before the DA has the human capacity to review the cases and even file for charges or not (all of this with 0 RP to the investigators and criminals involved, by the way, and I for one would love to RP with ADAs a whole lot more from a sheriff's detective perspective) for days on end is honestly disheartening.

 

I don't believe sentencing is harsh. I believe the journey throughout the judicial system is harsh because it's time consuming and, I get it, they're complex matters and they can't be defaulted to an excuse for a judicial proceeding, but it's a problem for all involved.

 

The bottom line is that all of which I've explained does not provide any role-play to any parties involved besides the end result. It feels more like a filter against unwarranted arrests than it is there to create fun. And that's where I feel you're going wrong about it.

Edited August 12, 2020 by liq

[Brett]

6 minutes ago, liq said:

The judicial system definitely does punish people in unfair ways, simply because, as Bospy has been trying to explain, it limits one's ability to thoroughly try to enjoy any kind of police investigation whatsoever because they know for a fact they'll do hard time in the meaning of days, to weeks, to months, for as little as a player kill, and that's not fair. Required court cases for something so heinous on an IC basis yet something so minuscule on an OOC basis due to killing being an inherent game dynamic should only be applied under CK pretenses.

This just sounds like a Heavy-Roleplay server mentality. Every crime you can commit in GTA is "minor," in the grand scheme of the OOC repercussions. The simple fact that a character can be arrested at all no matter if it's one hour, one day, one week, etc limits peoples ability to enjoy the game as people just hate to be locked up. I still will never forget the people during my days of SAMP (And there were MANY who did this), who would legitimately grab a PK from a police officer after a pursuit which would only have gotten them a 1 hour jail simply because they didn't want to spend a second in jail for what they just did. The times don't matter. The mentality that the people hold towards punishment, is what drives the feeling of "unfairness," that is so often complained about. And in my experience, I have not heard of the unfair ways the system has been impacting people as even the replies in this thread actually is making the argument that they may be too lenient. I may not be the Chief Justice anymore of the courts, but I am still updated on various affairs and I can tell you even with things like the new Drug Laws which recently came in they were praised for the strictness that was finally being brought in on the illegal roleplayers in terms of these markets because (good) roleplayers on the illegal side don't mind the consequences so much, as they mind the fairness and actual realism which the system does provide. Simply put, this argument has been made, and has been thoroughly debunked numerous times. And if it seriously was just this thing that a majority of illegal roleplayers thought was hindering them, we would see massive threads on the forums against it like we see massive threads against problems in the PD or SD whenever they come up. Which we don't see in regards to sentencing and punishments with the penal code...

 

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I won't dwell into a thesis on the subject, but let this sink in — a player would rather lie and not cooperate with good, quality police role-play and even choose to shoot and/or find their way out of a potential police investigation to take a PK than to rather deal with the judicial system. And that speaks volumes of its quality when it comes to those who role-play criminals. I believe required court cases are part of the problem. Either set the bar higher, or don't make them as common as they are right now. The fact that people have to wait in holding before the DA has the human capacity to review the cases and even file for charges or not (all of this with 0 RP to the investigators and criminals involved, by the way, and I for one would love to RP with ADAs a whole lot more from a sheriff's detective perspective) for days on end is honestly disheartening.

Okay, this is just silly. As I stated before even back on LSRP, people would suicide by cop just to avoid 1 hour in jail period. This has nothing to do with with the judicial system, it has to do with the mentality of some of these people in that they simply never want to spend a second of their time in punishment for the things that they do. There has never been a server in the history of GTA roleplay that has managed to resolve this no matter what the judicial system has been, because it's all mentality. Required Court Cases are rare. Really, go through the court system stuff right now and find how many cases even compose of felony charges (They're not as many as you think). And if you don't believe that, you can believe this chart compiled by Notbond on people getting arrested  here. Most arrests are misdemeanors, or low level felonies that don't meet the requirement. Simply put as to not dwell here, there is no evidence or support for the idea that required court cases contribute or are part of the problem. As the problem has existed far before GTA World, since the beginning days of Heavy Roleplay even since 2011-2012 LSRP (Where it happened there as well and on every other roleplay server.) This is a boogey man argument, and one that is just patently false. 

 

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The bottom line is that all of which I've explained does not provide any role-play to any parties involved besides the end result. It feels more like a filter against unwarranted arrests than it is there to create fun. And that's where I feel you're going wrong about it.

Uh...bruh wut? What do you mean it doesn't provide any roleplay to any involved? Have you seen the client-attorney meetings? Have you seen the planning of arguments that are to be made in court and the back-dealings between attorneys and the DA for their clients? Have you seen the roleplay associated with delivering subpoenas to the police department, etc to get footage involved in the incident? And that's not to mention even the forum roleplay of people coming to witness trials and roleplay inside the court where we had to make court rules just regulating how that goes, to the LSNN posts about the trials themselves? Again, this is patently false information. The only way this argument can legitimately be made, is if you have simply zero information about how this works, how it functions, what goes into it, or the results of what it achieves. Not trying to be rude, but this was honestly very ignorant and unless you want to back up what you have said by some facts it's just absolutely absurd.