How does someone get out of extortion?

[Trupiano]

1 hour ago, Juicebox said:

I’m a real life example of someone who doesn’t consort with ANY criminals (knowingly). My business has never been extorted and god forbid if it did, I’d call the police and have it handled. I wouldn’t all of a sudden think of “protection” from some people I assume to be criminals. That sounds completely ridiculous. 

As I stated earlier in this thread, stop pointing back to IRL as a cover. Yeah your right, in the real world you would rightfully just call the police. Why? Because you have faith in the police system. Because the police will actually attempt to do something, PD on this server however does nothing and this is an IC fact. It is the reality of the server, you have to deal with it. Now, things are being done to change that both in gov and in the judiciary but until that happens, the extortion on this server will continue to operate like we're in the 1950's because law enforcement does literally nothing to stop it. This is not the criminal's fault, we're operating within the IC climate that's being portrayed where a police department has shown us time and time again they are unwilling to do anything about the problem and so it continues to get worse as it rightfully should until Gov and PD do something about it IC.

 

Time and time again this thread pops up and every time I can't stop but see legal RPers trying to find literally any reason not pay protection when it's literally the safest and most realistic option for them to take. Is it realistic IRL? Nah, but IRL LEO's are actually attempting to do something about it. Instead we have absolutely ridiculous idea like this being floated around: 

 

25 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

Demonstrate a show of force. Show them you know exactly who they are by sending a convoy of black trucks to the outside of their hood/hideout/business/etc and asking to speak with them. Tell them to leave you alone. Granted, it takes a criminal who can actually RP fear properly for this to work, and that's a relatively uncommon breed - but I've seen this work. If they burn your business down, you'll burn theirs down, and by that point it's really more trouble than it's worth for $5000.

If you did this, I would literally laugh in your face IC.  Easiest way to get you and all your friends massacred. Bunch of blacked out vehicles roll up to my hood in a convoy? I'm not going to quiver in my boots, like any other gang member I'm going to open fire on you immediately because that 100% would look like the start of a drive by.

 

It's hilarious that legal RPers wanna cry about how criminal RPers need to show more fear then literally suggest that the only possible remedy IC is to take up arms and commit murder. Yeah because your perfectly legal character refuses to pay tax because that's "cRiMiNaL bEhAvIoR" but has no problem forming their own gang try to intimidate and murder those extorting you. 

 

 

 

 

 

[The OG Juicebox]

8 minutes ago, Henning said:

Time and time again this thread pops up and every time I can't stop but see legal RPers trying to find literally any reason not pay protection when it's literally the safest and most realistic option for them to take. Is it realistic IRL? Nah, but IRL LEO's are actually attempting to do something about it.

This I can agree with. Maybe I misspoke on the point I was trying to make. I think we see eye to eye on a lot of this. It is on the LEO's to counteract this problem and they aren't. I never said I wouldn't pay the protection tax if I was forced to, but I was more disagreeing with the fact that you feel that my character should attempt to reach out to other criminal groups in order to remedy the issue. That's something he would never do. I would absolutely pay the tax it if it was the safest option. Being my character is completely legal, I'd have no other avenues in the IC landscape that's been written where LEO's don't do anything about it. I simply would just have to deal with the tax. I was more or less saying that it wouldn't be characteristic of me to try and reach out to other criminal groups just to try and remedy the issue. My character wouldn't know the first step in doing so and would more than likely be afraid of pissing off the first group that started the extortion.

[Smilesville]

9 minutes ago, Henning said:

It's hilarious that legal RPers wanna cry about how criminal RPers need to show more fear then literally suggest that the only possible remedy IC is to take up arms and commit murder. Yeah because your perfectly legal character refuses to pay tax because that's "cRiMiNaL bEhAvIoR" but has no problem forming their own gang try to intimidate and murder those extorting you. 

 

48 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

Two things can be true at once.

1. The only way to permanently deal with extortion at present is to illegally deal with it.
2. This should not be the case, is highly unrealistic, and anyone suggesting it can take a long walk off a short pier.

If you're going to quote me and throw shade, at least read the entire post first.

I'm not telling you how I'd deal with it. I'm telling you how I've seen it dealt with. The characters in question were a small gun running gang in their own right, so of course anyone trying to extort them is going to disappear.

Fact remains that there's no option for legal RPers to deal with it - and extortionists know that, so a metagame develops around what people are allowed to do and not do.

 

Just like with robberies, except a touch more polite and narrative. And just like with robberies, the entire issue goes away if you change the incentive structure.

[DasFroggy]

8 hours ago, yerro said:

Naturally, you'd need to be put in witness protection...

Hmm, yes, the best counter to criminal interactions that may force me to create a new character is to... -checks notes- ...essentially create a new character.

 

Such relief. Much simple.

[Trupiano]

41 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

 

If you're going to quote me and throw shade, at least read the entire post first.

I'm not telling you how I'd deal with it. I'm telling you how I've seen it dealt with. The characters in question were a small gun running gang in their own right, so of course anyone trying to extort them is going to disappear.

Fact remains that there's no option for legal RPers to deal with it - and extortionists know that, so a metagame develops around what people are allowed to do and not do.

 

Just like with robberies, except a touch more polite and narrative. And just like with robberies, the entire issue goes away if you change the incentive structure.

I did read your entire post. The reason I quoted that section wasn't directly an attack at you, It was an attack on your suggestion because by leaving out the simple fact that said character was also a criminal leads some to believe that it's an acceptable response for every character. It's also a suggestion I've seen again and again and was using that quote to build up to this paragraph in my response: 

 

58 minutes ago, Henning said:

It's hilarious that legal RPers wanna cry about how criminal RPers need to show more fear then literally suggest that the only possible remedy IC is to take up arms and commit murder. Yeah because your perfectly legal character refuses to pay tax because that's "cRiMiNaL bEhAvIoR" but has no problem forming their own gang try to intimidate and murder those extorting you. 

 

44 minutes ago, Juicebox said:

This I can agree with. Maybe I misspoke on the point I was trying to make. I think we see eye to eye on a lot of this. It is on the LEO's to counteract this problem and they aren't. I never said I wouldn't pay the protection tax if I was forced to, but I was more disagreeing with the fact that you feel that my character should attempt to reach out to other criminal groups in order to remedy the issue. That's something he would never do. I would absolutely pay the tax it if it was the safest option. Being my character is completely legal, I'd have no other avenues in the IC landscape that's been written where LEO's don't do anything about it. I simply would just have to deal with the tax. I was more or less saying that it wouldn't be characteristic of me to try and reach out to other criminal groups just to try and remedy the issue. My character wouldn't know the first step in doing so and would more than likely be afraid of pissing off the first group that started the extortion.

I think there's a common misconception that criminals are opposed to any OOC rules regarding extortion because we enjoy the level of freedom we currently have. This isn't true as almost everyone wants RICO laws and those opposed seem more concerned about the players who will be performing it IG more then the change itself. I'd love to use burner phones all the time and be all secretive, but frankly it's a little tiring to know that while I might be RPing being careful I know OOCly that the chances of PD actually trying to tap my phone or business is pretty much 0. I still RP being careful of course, but like I said it's tiring and kinda takes the wind out of my sails knowing I'm doing it for really no reason.

 

As I said in my first reply to this thread, I totally understand that there are people who just steam roll legal businesses when it comes to extortion and that isn't right. However in my eyes, they're just stupid criminals IC and I'd rather see LEO's, Gov and the DA's office go about tackling it IC instead of having staff intervene. My honest suggestion for your character and many others? Pay the tax and start working ICly to get something done about it. Find out who your city councilman is and tell them "Crime is out of control in my area, gangs are extorting my business and the police won't do anything about it". That right there lights a fire under PD's ass.

 

The server has a fully functioning IC government now and part of me feels like people don't realize how active they are IG or how much power the hold over PD and SD. They are currently discussing the LSSD budget right now: 

 

 

Imagine how those hearing would go if those council members had a list of complaints from their constituents. They could hold the high commands feet to the fire and ask them why they need more money when they aren't showing any results. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Henning

[Biscuit]

54 minutes ago, Henning said:

PD on this server however does nothing and this is an IC fact. It is the reality of the server, you have to deal with it.

42 minutes ago, Juicebox said:

I think we see eye to eye on a lot of this. It is on the LEO's to counteract this problem and they aren't.

Evidence of that /factual/ claim, please. 

I do however have evidence to support this claim:

2 hours ago, Biscuit said:

ah yes, i forgot people walk into businesses in 2020 asking for "5k a week for cleaning services" without putting much more other effort into proving they are worthy to actually be paid off as a result of how everything works and ignore CCTV cameras filing the entire thing because god forbid: if you tell the police about this and if you send me to jail... you are getting CK'd.

 

[Trupiano]

Just now, Biscuit said:

Evidence of that /factual/ claim, please. 

I do however have evidence to support this claim:

 

I mean I've personally experienced it dozens of times but I guess my own personal experience doesn't count because I don't agree with you. There's additionally this screen from the DA's office showing SD is willing to support long form investigations but PD doesn't want to: 

 

I've also been told by Ex-SABI members that PD stonewalled them during investigations this summer and on top of that I have been told by members of PD it's an issue as well. So yeah when all these parties independently of each other show me or tell me that's it's an issue inside PD, frankly I'm inclined to believe them.

8 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

ah yes, i forgot people walk into businesses in 2020 asking for "5k a week for cleaning services" without putting much more other effort into proving they are worthy to actually be paid off as a result of how everything works and ignore CCTV cameras filing the entire thing because god forbid: if you tell the police about this and if you send me to jail... you are getting CK'd.

Ah yes, ignore the last two pages of productive discussion between @Juicebox and I where we establish that while your correct it's not realistic IRL in 2020, given that PD does nothing to combat these groups the extortion climate on this server is more likened to the 1950's then it is 2020. But I guess you just expect people to RP fearing the police when they've shown time and time again IC they are completely oblivious or willfully ignorant to the existence of these problems. Maybe if PD actually did long form investigations and built case files on these groups they could easily tie the CK back to the organization, discouraging criminal factions from just murdering people who refuse to pay up.

 

 

 

[Biscuit]

11 minutes ago, Henning said:

There's additionally this screen from the DA's office showing SD is willing to support long form investigations but PD doesn't want to: 

Sorry, I have to disagree with that one, nothing in the screenshot says PD doesn't want to help out the DA's Office, it just says that the SD has a direct contact with the SD. Infact, they even mentioned that they cooperate with both LSPD and LSSD.

13 minutes ago, Henning said:

I've also been told by Ex-SABI members that PD stonewalled them during investigations this summer and on top of that I have been told by members of PD it's an issue as well.

I've also been told that 8 gang members rolled in deep into ULSA by a ULSA member and shot up the school.

 

The evidence regarding it however, tells a completely different story.

16 minutes ago, Henning said:

given that PD does nothing to combat these groups the extortion climate on this server is more likened to the 1950's then it is 2020.

Simply untrue.

19 minutes ago, Henning said:

Maybe if PD actually did long form investigations and built case files on these groups they could easily tie the CK back to the organization, discouraging criminal factions from just murdering people who refuse to pay up.

That is exactly the job of the Detectives Bureau within the PD.

[Smilesville]

8 minutes ago, Henning said:

The server has a fully functioning IC government now and part of my feels like people don't realize how active they are IG or how much power the hold over PD and SD. They are currently discussing the LSSD budget right now: 

They've been discussing police budgets for two years now. I'll believe they have power to effectuate change when I see it - because at present, all this means is that faction leaders just personally inject their cash into the budget whenever it happens to run low (and they've got enough to do so continually, by most available metrics.)

 

Unless they can start firing people for not doing what is essentially their job, we're not going to see much change.

[Pádraig]

There seems like there is a fundamental disconnect between what realities we operate and base our roleplay on. The real world or GTA world. Considering the amount of oddities on the server that don't really stack up well to real life (Los Santos being by far the gayest city in the world, the sports-car per capita being at roughly 1 per every inhabitant, rags to riches mechanics, so on so forth). 

 

I'd say that we live in a reality that is not at all akin to a modern American city, so drawing comparisons is inane 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Pádraig