Punishments should reflect the rules broken and damage inflicted on players.

[Mistery14]

15 minutes ago, imi said:

On a somewhat related point, I wonder what people think about admin jails as a whole. Coming from a community where these things didn't exist, they're rather peculiar and seem a relic of past communities rather than an effective part of administrative responses.

 

Jail time sort of works for minor offenses, but as soon as it crosses a certain line, a ban for a day or more is ultimately the better solution. Hell I think the admin jail should have screenshot images of the server's in-game rules on its walls so that the offenders can have a read without tabbing out. Never been there but I assume it's blank walls.

 

I think we should just overall be less lenient with offenses in general, I mean, at the end of the day, what's the compromise we want?

 

On one hand, you're lenient by default in the book and people see that and abuse it, they do something like this, get their punishment and realize that "Hey it's not that bad!" And then add to that, since their record is "tarnished" by said punishment, they just sort of give up on trying to behave a little better and end up getting punished more and more until it's finally decided that they should be perma-banned with or without an appeal.

 

On the other hand, you can be stricter and enforce harsher punishment for cases like these. Stuff like this is utterly unacceptable - This is beyond the game, this actually impacts someone's actual, IRL time that they could have spent doing something else but instead it's been ruined by someone who had absolutely zero consideration for the person or the work they've put into propping.

[Mitch]

I'm in favor of just removing the admin jails anyway, do we have actual proof that they work? Short durations simply aren't good enough, shoot people? 15 minutes, DM? 30 minutes, etc. 

 

If we want to be strict, give temp bans, gets worse? Perm. 

[Moonsong]

9 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

 

Jail time sort of works for minor offenses, but as soon as it crosses a certain line, a ban for a day or more is ultimately the better solution. Hell I think the admin jail should have screenshot images of the server's in-game rules on its walls so that the offenders can have a read without tabbing out. Never been there but I assume it's blank walls.

 

I think we should just overall be less lenient with offenses in general, I mean, at the end of the day, what's the compromise we want?

 

On one hand, you're lenient by default in the book and people see that and abuse it, they do something like this, get their punishment and realize that "Hey it's not that bad!" And then add to that, since their record is "tarnished" by said punishment, they just sort of give up on trying to behave a little better and end up getting punished more and more until it's finally decided that they should be perma-banned with or without an appeal.

 

On the other hand, you can be stricter and enforce harsher punishment for cases like these. Stuff like this is utterly unacceptable - This is beyond the game, this actually impacts someone's actual, IRL time that they could have spent doing something else but instead it's been ruined by someone who had absolutely zero consideration for the person or the work they've put into propping.

 

Really well put, it's nice to see such constrictive replies coming out of a suggestion for a change. It perhaps shows that there really is a problem with how things are dealt with as a whole.

 

This response actually brings me back to an earlier point @Wuhtah made about whether a punishment should be more lenient if the actions of a rulebreaker only effect one person. imho, it shouldn't matter how many people it effects, if it disrupts hours of painstaking effort for one person that more than justifies a harsh administrative response. Can you really put a value on one persons effort any more than you would for disrupting a group of 5-6 people and probably ruining their evenings roleplay? It's really subjective depending on who you are but both instances warrant more severe punishment if actions were done with malicious intent. Malicious intent being the key here.

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Moonsong

[Mistery14]

39 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

 

As mentioned, it has nothing to do with you. The fact you're taking it to heart so much is great though and shows a good attitude. I would suggest rewriting the rules back to their basics and rely more on common sense. All the added details to rules result in skirting of rules and claiming it wasn't mentioned in the rules. This will not work every time, but with more details comes more leniency. 

 

Taking a quick glance through the most recent responded to rule suggestion, a few examples that are tied to common sense if you ask me:

 

Make a clear rule for hand-to-hand combat.

People calling for a specific rule for roleplay to happen. This should simply be part of the roleplay standard players share: if you emote, you await a response in kind, even if you're 'rushing' them.

 

Roleplaying car crashes.

Enough said, we're all aware of actual crashes being voided by players because one or both parties go: /b desync, but yes this one is tricky with the rage streamer being worse than in 2018.

 

Disallow bike hoping for speed.

Apparently it's not clear to everyone this is simple abuse of game mechanics when used for speedy travel on a bmx bike through out a massive city and already a report-worthy offense?

 

Define Knuckledusters as a lethal weapon. Because they are.

This doesn't need a definition on a server that propagates heavy roleplay, it's a shame people think it does.

 

I'll stop there, I'm sure there's plenty more where those came from.

 

 

I'm the person who wrote the "Make a clear rule for hand-to-hand combat." thread, just going to add to your comment here and put my point of view as well.

 

Combat RP is a very small part of the bigger picture, and /me reciprocity between players should absolutely not stop at combat RP. If anything I think the server rules should rely less on common sense and more on examples. Common sense is not the same for everyone - This is not an insult to anyone's intelligence, but to some people it's perfectly normal for them to be able to punch a character in the face right after typing out a /me because they're used to a different RP system, or because they're new, or because they've observed it to be the norm.

 

I strongly believe that RP standards should not be made up by players as it seems to be the case right now but rather set as examples and better clarifications in the rules, people are being praised for decent roleplay when it should be the norm. What enforces my point that RP standards are not set by the server but rather players themselves, is the fact that you have countless occurrences of people praising/bashing a certain type of RP, like "Legal" or "Illegal" roleplayers or, well even factions themselves.

 

The RP standard of players shouldn't be specific to what, who, and where they chose to roleplay. People are having the wrong idea when talking about RP standards. People are just following the current rules as they are, and if nothing is improved upon/changed to actually set server-specific standards in enough aspects, then people will continue to have their own individual RP standards they currently follow. Uniqueness in the way people RP is good until it mismatches with what the server aims for in terms of standards, and it creates a clear divide in the playerbase. We're talking about hundreds of individual people with their own ideas of RP here, that's why I think it's important to clarify so much.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Mistery14

[Law]

36 minutes ago, imi said:

On a somewhat related point, I wonder what people think about admin jails as a whole. Coming from a community where these things didn't exist, they're rather peculiar and seem a relic of past communities rather than an effective part of administrative responses.

I’ve never seen a system in any other game where you’re put in a box and made to be online. You’re either allowed to be on the server or not.

 

I’ve also seen people getting kicked for being AFK in ajail, what are they meant to do? Roleplay?

[Mistery14]

11 minutes ago, Moonsong said:

 

Really well put, it's nice to see such constrictive replies coming out of a suggestion for a change. It perhaps shows that there really is a problem with how things are dealt with as a whole.

 

This response actually brings me back to an earlier point @Wuhtah made about whether a punishment should be more lenient if the actions of a rulebreaker only effect one person. imho, it shouldn't matter how many people it effects, if it disrupts hours of painstaking effort for one person that more than justifies a harsh administrative response. Can you really put a value on one persons effort any more than you would for disrupting a group of 5-6 people and probably ruining their evenings roleplay? It's really subjective depending on who you are but both instances warrant more severe punishment if actions were done with malicious intent. Malicious intent being the key here.

 

 

Thank you, I always try to bring as much insight, examples and context into my arguments as I can, it can get lengthy but I don't mind if it goes unread because at least it's out there for whoever has the time/feels like reading it.

 

I think you're absolutely correct though.

 

One person is still a person and that person had their time essentially wasted away by the offender's action. The thing is - It almost never affects only one person at the end of the day. You also have to take into account many things behind it, namely that there's also an administrator that had to take the report, look into it, and come up with a solution to the problem and all of that takes time, time which wouldn't have been spent had that issue never occurred in the first place. There's also the player that's going to have to wait until that property is propped back up, or maybe having to hire a propper/do it themselves. It's just a big mess.

 

So yeah, it should definitely be heavily punished. There's no tolerance or leniency to be had when something is clearly malicious and intends to cause damage for one's benefit/amusement. I definitely think that interiors should have their own little "saves", like being able to save an interior after mapping it in order to rollback a save whenever something like that happens.

[Coburn]

55 minutes ago, imi said:

On a somewhat related point, I wonder what people think about admin jails as a whole. Coming from a community where these things didn't exist, they're rather peculiar and seem a relic of past communities rather than an effective part of administrative responses.

Honestly the admin jails are a joke, I used the ones I got at first to message the admin that jailed me to get feedback, but after that it's just walking in circles while watching netflix.

 

Replace ajails with bans.

 

To return on topic, sentences should reflect on how the rulebreaker has behaved during and after the rulebreak. If they show genuine remorse and have a clean record, short ban (let's say a few days to a week). But if they keep lying, then just throw the book at them and ban them for a month+

Edited June 21, 2022 by Coburn

[Vash Baldeus]

1 hour ago, damnbrah said:

punishments are too light in general



15 minutes lol this is a joke, bro just gone take a quick shit, fix himself a sandwich and then get back to trolling


+1
 

 

1 hour ago, sky~ said:

I have to agree here, there needs to be some sort of revamp of the system the administrators are using because it just is a joke, as seen above a player disrupted roleplay for 6-7  other people and only received a 15-minute admin jail, whereas a person who drove up to Mt Chilliad with an Asterope RS receives 90 minutes which probably disrupted 1-2 people's roleplay.

Maybe it's not a bad idea to start considering bans instead of admin jails, a ban for a day will teach more than 15 minutes of admin jail does.

With all due respect to Wuhtuh, and the rest of the admins who had their in-game screen shown.

I have been long enough on this server (joined when server opened), since those times and today, punishments are far more lenient in comparison to what they used to be. When an admin hands out a punishment it has to be effective enough to deter the offender from repeating it, otherwise it turns into a revolving door of repeat offenders. I have seen people get perma-banned or temp-banned (I.E. 2 months) for PF abuse (I.E. selling gun) while yes it is against the rules, compared to the examples I quoted PF abuse is less intrusive or destructive to others Roleplay, does not mean the punishment shouldn't be hard. But 15 minutes for wearing an outfit from Shot Caller and pissing off people on purpose (Trolling for all intents and purposes) ain't gonna deter offender from repeating it again.

 

In the early days of this server, people were punished adequately, enough to make them understand that it was wrong. What happened to this being HEAVY TEXT BASED Roleplay server is what I wonder. Since when server has turned into a school? It is in human nature to break the rules, people will abuse any systems you put in place unless you prevent it either by rules, harsh punishments or if all else fails by script limitations that prevent players from doing certain actions.

[Triple Seven]

15 minutes ago, Coburn said:

To return on topic, sentences should reflect on how the rulebreaker has behaved during and after the rulebreak. If they show genuine remorse and have a clean record, short ban (let's say a few days to a week). But if they keep lying, then just throw the book at them and ban them for a month+

 

No they shouldn't. Equality is good for transparency. Malicious intent and record should make punishment worse though.

[Vash Baldeus]

21 minutes ago, Coburn said:

To return on topic, sentences should reflect on how the rulebreaker has behaved during and after the rulebreak. If they show genuine remorse and have a clean record, short ban (let's say a few days to a week). But if they keep lying, then just throw the book at them and ban them for a month+

I understand leniency towards a person who has a clean record, first time, yes, but bans won't be the solution, prolong the admin jails. If offender repeats the offense, then ban.

 

Not to mention, Permanent Ban should not mean 1 week, guy appeals and is back again. If person who was banned feels it was wrong, he can file a staff report. Yes it'll add more of those, but based on effort of affected person you can judge whether it's worth time checking it in depth or not.