The insane time needed to report/request...

[Zach..]

8 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

 

First off, I want to say I appreciate you diving into the heat of this discussion and not only maintaining your composure but displaying a level of openness not regularly seen by staff. Secondly and on to the quote, those are definitely areas that can be streamlined and I brought up a few of them in my original reply. half of the things you mentioned would really be solved with a few key changes.

 

I don't know what the server keeps for logs on the backend for you guys to access but either they should be found and posted almost at the same time that the reports being taken OR we need to enforce a more standardized use of parser by players. Just like POV video evidence is required a lot of the time, so should chatlogs and they should be posted by the reporting party from the start. 

 

I've mentioned it a few times now, but the whip needs to be cracked a lot sooner on players who aren't responding or taking a long time to respond. Twenty four hours after notification without an initial response? Automatic temp ban. Ignoring staff questions for a day or two while your active IG? Automatic temp ban. This is a part of the issue that's partly staff's fault for being too soft and partly the communities fault for taking advantage of it while complaining. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty certain that logs are only accessable by certain level admins, which in of itself creates an extra step for lower level admins. Even when someone does go to find logs for a situation, they're all discord based. If you've ever searched for something in discord, it gives you a few results on a page, and it's keyword search is HORRIBLE. I think if there was a more reliable way for admins to get records things would be a lot easier.

 

I also agree with the punishment part. People ignore stuff for days and it delays the whole process. If they're playing in game but not responding to the report, that should be a ban.

 

 

I appreciate the admins on this thread posting their opinions and insight, it gives me hope that you do genuinely care.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Zach..

[Esc]

56 minutes ago, LilManiac said:

I'm not gonna address the issues regarding forum reports or FM related reports/appeals as wutah has already given her insight on those subjects. I'm responding in regards with the RPQM reports, the process and handling of these reports.

 

First of all, yes it takes time. It does because it isn't handled like normal player report. RPQM reports are confidential and most of the time it's not an individual occurrence. The issue regarding player could be continuous and requires gathering weeks worth of evidences. This includes reaching out to the reported player, checking pages worth logs, gathering other types of evidences and all that. This process takes time and sometimes it take more than it should and we agree with it.

 

If you feel like your RPQM reports are left untouched for a very long time or not getting a response from the handling admin, feel free to PM me or anyone else from the RPQM team on discord or the forums.

Hi, I completely understand your and the team's position regarding RPQM's and how much work must be behind scenes to even reach a conclusion but I can tell you that I've tried to ask for feedback as you suggest here and the response I've got wasn't any good.
I can also, for example, if you so wish, tell you that I've had a RPQM report hanging for a year without any response, although I don't blame RPQM for their leadership change or anything along those lines.
I am sure there might be countless reports coming in and if all of them take time to be looked into, it is understandable that it takes that long, however, does not 6-7 months seem too excessive for you?
I have tried many ways to see our RPQM's answered because an entire faction depended on its outcome, however, no response has yet been given and we saw ourselves forced to tag along with the bad roleplay we've got from those encounters.

I very much appreciate your and your sub-team effort, but it is also frustrating for us, players.

[Wuhtah]

1 hour ago, Zach.. said:

I dont wanna be a dick but this bleeds over to in game issues aswell. As of this screenshot there was about 600+ people on the server.

Reports don't get answered ingame? They go to the forum. So there's an obvious link here. I understand admins are players too and they shouldn't be expected to ALWAYS be on ADuty, but this trend of one or two admins on, and then 15+ off duty is a every day thing. Stuff gets ignored, so it goes to the forums.

 

I am one of those 17 administrators off duty. I did 6-7 hours of property management work, forum work, and player reports before hopping on to roleplay. I can't say that for all administrators, but that is my excuse for that. I understand that admin duty does come first, but we all like to get into that roleplay and forget about the workload, of course, if all administrators did this, no players would get help and this is on us too. 

 

46 minutes ago, Koko said:

 

I think the internal bureaucracy has just grown too large. It's how it seems from the outside and I have no evidence to back this up other than the spread of paperwork exercises left for players to complete in getting anything done. I feel like you could prune or streamline some internal processes and create more guidelines to reduce the amount of admin consensus needed to make decisions that aren't massive, relatively speaking. Particularly when it comes to handing businesses to people.

 

People should be allowed to start a small business and oversight can be done afterwards if you build something monstrous. A proof of concept that takes 3 months to proofread is a bit steep, considering that these businesses are the lifeblood of neighborhood RP and they can't be accessed. For every offender that people would report (and that the request system doesn't stop because they can build anything until caught), you have donzes of people wanting to have simple projects for RP, and for which the rquest takes longer to process than the average lifespan of a character, which seems to be around 6 months.

 

Appreciate the feedback! I believe this is more of a property management question in general and not specifically the player reports and such. However, a reason player's can't start their own business without talking to a member of PM is because we have to transfer to the ownership and script over to the player itself. We also want to promote good roleplayers, but I also understand taking 3 months (it usually takes less than one) is frustrating and the idea gets 'boring' after it. 

 

I'll let @Frezemis comment more specifically on this matter as he is the head of property management. 

 

43 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

 

First off, I want to say I appreciate you diving into the heat of this discussion and not only maintaining your composure but displaying a level of openness not regularly seen by staff. Secondly and on to the quote, those are definitely areas that can be streamlined and I brought up a few of them in my original reply. half of the things you mentioned would really be solved with a few key changes.

 

I don't know what the server keeps for logs on the backend for you guys to access but either they should be found and posted almost at the same time that the reports being taken OR we need to enforce a more standardized use of parser by players. Just like POV video evidence is required a lot of the time, so should chatlogs and they should be posted by the reporting party from the start. 

 

I've mentioned it a few times now, but the whip needs to be cracked a lot sooner on players who aren't responding or taking a long time to respond. Twenty four hours after notification without an initial response? Automatic temp ban. Ignoring staff questions for a day or two while your active IG? Automatic temp ban. This is a part of the issue that's partly staff's fault for being too soft and partly the communities fault for taking advantage of it while complaining. 

 

 

 

No worries, I like to listen to the community, but again, I am limited on what I can do. I can easily change how I approach things, but I also need to be operating under the guidelines as a staff member as well and of course, lead by example, perhaps others can fill in the gaps as well! 

 

We keep all the logs - but some are restricted access per game level admin. I'm not really too sure how deep I can dive into this, but given the time zones and such for some logs to be acquired, that does take some time as well. As we did sign up for this job, we aren't necessarily going to be doing it 24/7 and I don't expect other administrators to be able to get stuff for me ASAP. I allow them time, and they usually do get back to me in a few days. That's just common courtesy.

 

As for POV video evidence and chatlogs, 100%. I believe they need to be posted ASAP, but I also need to take that with a grain of salt. What if they forged the chatlogs? I don't want to say I don't trust the players, because that feels awful to read and even to right - but I also know that people DO do this to not get in trouble. 

 

As for the players who ignore staff questions and notifications - We tend to give them 48 hours. We think that's enough time, but not too much time wasted. I believe 24 hours may be a bit too strict. I believe perhaps a maximum of 48 hours instead of delaying it twice might work - but again, this is also a management decision too. You have many good points, and I would love for them all to be heard and I truly urge you to write up a forum suggestion (these do not get ignored, I visit them quite frequently and bring them up in staff meetings as I'm a forum moderator administrator as well) explaining everything that could be changed roughly and given examples. 

 

35 minutes ago, Zach.. said:

I'm pretty certain that logs are only accessable by certain level admins, which in of itself creates an extra step for lower level admins. Even when someone does go to find logs for a situation, they're all discord based. If you've ever searched for something in discord, it gives you a few results on a page, and it's keyword search is HORRIBLE. I think if there was a more reliable way for admins to get records things would be a lot easier.

 

I also agree with the punishment part. People ignore stuff for days and it delays the whole process. If they're playing in game but not responding to the report, that should be a ban.

 

 

I appreciate the admins on this thread posting their opinions and insight, it gives me hope that you do genuinely care.

 

This! Yep - I didn't know if it was public knowledge or not, but yes. Some logs are only accessible depending on the level of administrator. It does create an extra step, which is 100% okay because it safeguards the staff team and such. The logs are very hefty, and I completely understand Nervous' and management's decision behind locking them behind levels. 

 

There are applications out there that I use and other administrators use to make log searching easier (and I say enjoyable because I'm weird). It is just tough to learn and such, but a lot of the admins who know how to use it offer their help in doing so. 

 

We are trying to be more open and communicative with you in the ways that we CAN - honey. is doing a great job on the IFM front of talking to the illegal faction community/members and getting their voices heard on a daily basis. I know you guys want transparency, but that can only go so far as well. We do bring up your suggestions and they are talked about especially within management. We appreciate all of you that play on the server and that offer us feedback because that's how we grow as a community in general. 

 

[Momo's Revenge]

 

 

5 hours ago, Trupiano said:

GTAW is the only server where I've seen the staff team grow and grow yet the amount of work that gets done seems to be less and less. 

 

And I know somebody is reading this and immediately rage typing about how much hard work staff does that we don't see or that they are volunteers. Frankly I don't really care and neither should you. This server is unable to meet it's most basic management duties in a timely manner, that's unacceptable for a community with thousands of players that generates tens of thousands of dollars in donations a year. The worst part, on top of that there seems to be a never ending and always changing amount of bureaucratic hoops to jump through to get anything done. Something that only puts more strain on the staff team by creating more work to sift through. It's ridiculous how many times I've seen someone report a situation only for it to take so long for staff to address it that said situation spirals into two more reports and a CK appeal. 

 

Whatever staff is doing, its not working and I hope a serious discussion is had within staff about find a solution. But it's become very clear to me as a player that the entire system of how staff operates needs to be reworked from the ground floor because this issue is systemic. 

Fr, a lot of my report times take 30-40 minutes+ if they ever get a response at all. That's not excusable.  I like to call this LSRP syndrome cause the same thing happened there. 

[averycoolguy]

5 hours ago, Trupiano said:

GTAW is the only server where I've seen the staff team grow and grow yet the amount of work that gets done seems to be less and less. 

 

And I know somebody is reading this and immediately rage typing about how much hard work staff does that we don't see or that they are volunteers. Frankly I don't really care and neither should you. This server is unable to meet it's most basic management duties in a timely manner, that's unacceptable for a community with thousands of players that generates tens of thousands of dollars in donations a year. The worst part, on top of that there seems to be a never ending and always changing amount of bureaucratic hoops to jump through to get anything done. Something that only puts more strain on the staff team by creating more work to sift through. It's ridiculous how many times I've seen someone report a situation only for it to take so long for staff to address it that said situation spirals into two more reports and a CK appeal. 

 

Whatever staff is doing, its not working and I hope a serious discussion is had within staff about find a solution. But it's become very clear to me as a player that the entire system of how staff operates needs to be reworked from the ground floor because this issue is systemic. 

One of my friends reported a faction and it took HALF A YEAR before he got an answer. And of course, the answer was basically that no action would be taken.

 

HALF A YEAR.

[Zach..]

21 minutes ago, Wuhtah said:

 

I am one of those 17 administrators off duty. I did 6-7 hours of property management work, forum work, and player reports before hopping on to roleplay. I can't say that for all administrators, but that is my excuse for that. I understand that admin duty does come first, but we all like to get into that roleplay and forget about the workload, of course, if all administrators did this, no players would get help and this is on us too. 

 

 

 

 

Again I do not want to come off as a dick, I understand everyone wants to play and they should. I understand you've put in a ton of effort that day so fair enough. My main concern is that I highly doubt that everyone else has.

 

I really do appreciate you taking the time to give us your side of things.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Zach..

[Brian3898]

3 hours ago, Bandit0621 said:

 

 

This doesn't seem to be answer as many have pointed out in the posts above. Its not like /we/ asked y'all to become admins on this server. /YOU/ chose to apply and do it knowing the responsibility. With that being said- I've seen multiple people (including myself) apply for admin/support and get turned away because we weren't "active" on the forums. 

 

Relax bud, no need to imply I don't do anything just to serve your purpose of trying to make this topic seem like it has any sort of insight other than 'staff bad'. 

 

If any of you guys have ANY sort of input on how staff can improve response times while still maintaining quality vetting and decent investigation of claims then I'm sure staff management is all ears, but all I see here is staff bashing, literally volunteers who day in and day in put in countless hours to make all of your experiences better for little to no gain of their own. 

 

And let me finish this reply by saying that these sort of posts only demotivate admins even further from helping players, when you guys are so quick and agile at absolutely tearing down the efforts of every single member of the staff team. 

 

Just my two cents, but I'm just another dirty staff member that doesn't do anything but walk around in chimp skin, so what do I know. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Brian3898

[Wuhtah]

17 minutes ago, Zach.. said:

Again I do not want to come off as a dick, I understand everyone wants to play and they should. I understand you've put in a ton of effort that day so fair enough. My main concern is that I highly doubt that everyone else has.

 

I really do appreciate you taking the time to give us your side of things.

 

I encourage you to staff report any staff member you do not think is holding up their end of the deal. This doesn't make you a snitch or an annoyance or anything like that. If you don't think we are doing anything, then stand up and send a staff report out. There's no shame in it.

 

I'm an administrator who doesn't mind being staff reported and I encourage it because if I can get other views and opinions, I learn from my mistakes or, if I am in the right, I still learn more from how the player viewed it and how I can change up my style of punishment/teaching players. Of course, it's always nerve racking to see the "hey we need to talk" from staff management, but it is to benefit the staff team and players. 

 

Keep in mind - some staff members are dealing with IRL stuff and I try very hard to keep the point of contact staff member listed with LOAs and reduced activity to give you guys that transparency - however that's only for subteam admins.

[Jonesy]

3 hours ago, Bandit0621 said:

 

 

This doesn't seem to be answer as many have pointed out in the posts above. Its not like /we/ asked y'all to become admins on this server. /YOU/ chose to apply and do it knowing the responsibility. With that being said- I've seen multiple people (including myself) apply for admin/support and get turned away because we weren't "active" on the forums. 

As someone responsible for the staff application system, we've changed the staff applications to include a section where you can justify your contributions to the server rather than a generic number of posts on the forums. Players now have a chance to explain what they've actually done for the server. We're still very selective and I'm not promising anyone a support spot, but this was something we changed specifically to address community concerns and bring in some great support members who help out in other areas. This was very well advertised on the GTA:W announcements for this month's application process.

 

Also, to address the general point. I wake up with 10-20 messages daily on the forums and discord, so in addition to a full time job and real life commitments this game takes up over an hour of my time daily before I can even log in to take IG reports. I'd love to answer all of the reports that come in within 10 minutes, but I'd also like to get some RP in periodically. I think that goes the same for the rest of the staff team too, but that's just my anecdotal experience. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Jonesy

[Taina]

In my experience on other RP platforms, there's a huge difference between admins and mods. Admins are the staff members who deal with larger and more complex issues (and those that involve sensitive information). Mods, on the other hand, deal with smaller issues like moderating the forum and helping players with simple in-game issues.

 

I realize that the equivalent of a mod here would be the support staff, but here's the difference: Support staff appear to be treated like admins in training, handling smaller tasks while learning the ropes until they're ready to be promoted to admin status. As such, support staff applicants have to be properly vetted because it's very likely they'll eventually work their way up the ladder and into an admin position. 

 

I think it might help if there existed a separate, lesser role for players to assist with a lot of the tasks in-game and on the forum. There are players who have time and are willing to help but aren't necessarily interested in formally joining staff or becoming admins. Those players can help with some of the more organizational/simpler tasks so that admins can focus on dealing with the more complex and sensitive issues that come up in game and on the forums. Meanwhile, the support staff can focus on closely assisting admins and handling whatever issues moderators aren't authorized to handle.

 

A huge plus is that a lesser role like this is easier to fill so there would likely always be someone on that can assist with things like a car falling on a character in game, a bike being stuck in water, someone needing a forum post deleted, etc. 

 

I'm essentially suggesting that the simple tasks that both admins and support staff handle (that doesn't involve sensitive information) be transferred to a new, lesser staff role for players who have no interest in becoming admins in order to ease the workload and allow admins and support staff more time to handle the bigger issues.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Taina