Revamping Arrests - Points based system

[Brett]

Just now, resick said:

One basic example; forum drama?

Do you think the majority of people who play this community actively use the forum? If you do, you're wrong. Nor is the entire community responding to this post. If you have actual negative effects on players in-game, you are free to provide it. Otherwise, you're not contributing much to the discussion at all. 

[AceS|]

Why not just have a community vote on it? All this came out of the blue and there's obviously heavy resistance on it. Really seems like it was discussed by a selective few and not the majority.

Edited June 5, 2020 by AceS|

[AceS|]

20 hours ago, Chief said:

You're going to slap enough felony charges on someone to get them up to 30 points right away? Doubtful. If you do, then it's an IC problem and they were doing something very wrong to have that many felony charges all at once. Also, if it appears to be an issue of OOC abuse for excessive points, that's what RP quality / forum reports are for. I don't see the issue. Checks and balances exist for a reason.

It eventually becomes an issue where IC'ly they have a rap sheet as long as the Empire State Building and they still get out after serving their time. No one with 4, 5, 6+ felonies is going to be out running around on the streets anymore. Eventually, the line needs to be drawn or it gets out of hand. Case in point, look at Westen's reply above. Referenced below.

 

I'm saying SOMEONE will eventually slap 30 points onto someone. It's a play to win mentality a lot of people have, and they wouldn't get punished for it either. And like you said, "IC problem", but BOOM there goes a criminal's character. "IC problem." I literally had a scene where two people fist-fought, the guy that got hit first said he didn't want to press charges, the guy that started the fight fully admitted to doing it, but police still wanted to arrest him because an LEO witnessed it and had LEO testimony. Both players that were "criminals" here both seemed extremely new to the server, as in, they roleplayed but you could tell they were new players. Like, really? If they got smacked with a large jail sentence for that they would probably quit the server...

 

& Who cares if someone has a "rap sheet as long as the Empire State Building", it's a videogame, that people play to have fun on. People usually have these gangster characters for YEARS, and they'll obviously get arrested a lot versus a real life counterpart. People commit felonies and stuff like that on the game because it's fun and people are gangbanging, going to go tag up a turf is what makes gangbanging enjoyable. Going to go drive-by a rival gang for a long term war makes the gangbanging enjoyable. I'm not saying gangbanging and illegal roleplay is all about shooting/robbery, either, but that MOMENT you get to go ride out on a rival gang is one of the most exciting things to do, especially if you're a youngin in a gang and you haven't even held a gun before. But then you get slapped with 2 weeks in jail and risking a character CK? That's bullshit. No one's going to want to do that if they're going to sit in jail for 2 weeks, get 15 points, then if they do it again their character's CK'ed, the character that they've been developing for 3-4 weeks that is about to get jumped into the gang they're roleplaying with and FINALLY become a made member?

 

Yes, gangs do this in real life and get severely fucked over by police for it, for obvious reasons, but that's in real life. They also have thousands of members that are willing to take the fall, while factions here have maybe 20. You get a group of 4 guys that go on a hit on a rival gang and they get caught, surrendered and roleplayed it? That gang's hurting hard in the activity department for the next 3 weeks. 

 

Not everyone wants to roleplay a highly secretive mafia that does all their businesses in interiors and only interacts with the same 3 people and always hides from police. Not everyone wants to roleplay a civilian that just goes to stripclubs all day and hangs out a mechanic shop. Not everyone wants to be a cop, or a lawyer, or FD. The recklessness and getting arrested a lot creates scenes and creates roleplay for everyone involved, and like I said, reckless gangsters creates enjoyable scenes on the server for all parties involved.

 

Like, honestly. Have you guys ever roleplayed an outsider in a gang and had to work your way up? It takes OOC WEEKS to progress in illegal factions, all that time would be thrown away the first time they get to go on a "hit" and got caught slipping because they need to get another character and start ALL over again. That's so unfair. It's so silly. Have you ever roleplayed in a gang like that? Had to go prove your worth? Had to go ride out for your homies? Had the exciting moments where you started roleplaying as a kid, tagging up turf, throwing up gangsigns, then slowly starting to get recognized by the bigger homies, get the go ahead to go do more criminal stuff, start proving yourself, go on your first hits, do illegal gangbanging shit, then finally get jumped in? Get jumped in, then it takes even longer to rank up within drug crews and in the gang itself, and then even longer to keep climbing the ranks, all while not trying to fuck up so bad that the gang leader wants to take you out or your homeboy next to you? None of that shit's going to be possible if "3-4" felonies gets your character gone. People are just going to "rush" the process of character development. People are just going to do the increasingly popular shit where they're just like /me is a member of X gang, without even roleplaying growing up from like a teenager or whatever, because characters now on the illegal side are just disposable and don't really matter.

 

Meanwhile illegal roleplayers can get their characters CK'ed at ANY moment for 30 points system, getting caught for murder, pulling a gun on police after a robbery, whatever and it's "oh, that's realistic." However... there's police members roleplaying the same character they've been for 10 OOC years that have died in over 100 shootouts and respawned with a gun and full armor/health with zero consequences? How's that fair? And no, I'm not saying start making every cop that gets killed be forced to get CK'ed because that would be the stupidest thing ever. But this 30 points system, the mandatory courts for murder related cases which can result in a CK... it gives police/government way too much power and it sucks the "fun" out of it and requires people to roleplay a certain way.

 

I just want to say this is coming from someone that's roleplayed criminal roleplay since 2009. I've roleplayed LEO since 2012. I know both sides thoroughly. (and still actively participate in both sides.)

 

EDIT: Sorry for the double post, couldn't quote your post and delete my last... ?

Edited June 5, 2020 by AceS|

[Legate]

18 minutes ago, AceS| said:

 

Meanwhile illegal roleplayers can get their characters CK'ed at ANY moment for 30 points system, getting caught for murder, pulling a gun on police after a robbery, whatever and it's "oh, that's realistic." However... there's police members roleplaying the same character they've been for 10 OOC years that have died in over 100 shootouts and respawned with a gun and full armor/health with zero consequences? How's that fair? And no, I'm not saying start making every cop that gets killed be forced to get CK'ed because that would be the stupidest thing ever. But this 30 points system, the mandatory courts for murder related cases which can result in a CK... it gives police/government way too much power and it sucks the "fun" out of it and requires people to roleplay a certain way.

??????

Edited June 5, 2020 by Captain

[eTaylor]

5 hours ago, Syrike said:

Nothing about this is to fight off crime, the only thing this will affect is whether or not someone will commit to that sixth shooting in the same area. Think a crime is a little bit too risky to do right at this moment? Don't do it. Nothing about this kills crime, it just makes people do it smarter. There are so many factions that make a lot of money that are also illegal, they also do not draw attention from law enforcement. I would also like to point out that nearly all the responses to this thread are being made by LEO roleplayers, specifically from one faction with very little coming in from illegal RPers. So I am failing to see the huge impact as the people this affects most are not the ones complaining about it.

If this is a measure to promote smarter crimes and better roleplay it’s a stupid measure with no consideration for the effects beyond it’s purpose. This has taken away all reasons for me to roleplay with law enforcement, or even consider giving them a chance. It means to me that every interaction I have with the law is liable to have my character deleted. It makes me significantly doubt whether having an illegal character is even a thing you people want. It makes me want to stop roleplaying a drug addict because I’d be punished for my roleplay. Simply existing will have my character deleted by the police.
 

All this does is punish you for roleplaying with the police. It will polarize more people, and cause much more problems with the them v us mentality. This also destroys roleplay. I understand this is made for cop killers and Forum Drive gangbangers, but what if you fall out of that category? What if you’re just trailer trash out in the sticks that has frequent run in with corrupt law? If there’s no way points expire any criminal character will be deleted in the long run. Good or bad. 
 

Not everyone wants to roleplay a clean cut super intelligent mafia wise guy called Tony Gabagool playing 8D underwater crime chess. Points should either only apply to violent and severe crime or expire after a few months. Expiration periods would have the same effect, but only cover people who go on stupid crime sprees with little regard. Keep your good criminal characters around, if you start killing them off most aren’t going to see a point in developing one well and you’ll be left with just throwaway accounts and secret society mobsters. 

[George]

I'm all for this system because it focuses on felony crimes which in United States, 'typically' you'd get a jail sentence, but personally, this is a plus because we get rid of repeat offenders who have 15 armed robberies, 25 evasions and 4 second-degree attempted murders on their records with no regard for anything. If you ever get the opportunity to speak with someone in an LEO faction, ask them who has the longest record they know of, then figure out how that sits in the United States' justice system. Some may argue that this is a game sure, but you decided to send in an application for this community, and created a character story of who you are and sometimes the actions of one can ruin it completely for another. You just don't take someone's life and ten minutes later go to the nearest nightclub and be partying with people.

 

I think some may be overthinking this to believe that once you hit 30 points, its over for your character but it's not, simply once you hit 30 points, all the crimes you've been committing that never required a court case (felonies only) will now require a mandatory court trial just so the system can determine what's actually appropriate for your character.

 

Great job to the JSA team - I know you've all worked hard on getting this and I thank you. ?

[AceS|]

8 minutes ago, George said:

I'm all for this system because it focuses on felony crimes which in United States, 'typically' you'd get a jail sentence, but personally, this is a plus because we get rid of repeat offenders who have 15 armed robberies, 25 evasions and 4 second-degree attempted murders on their records with no regard for anything. If you ever get the opportunity to speak with someone in an LEO faction, ask them who has the longest record they know of, then figure out how that sits in the United States' justice system. Some may argue that this is a game sure, but you decided to send in an application for this community, and created a character story of who you are and sometimes the actions of one can ruin it completely for another. You just don't take someone's life and ten minutes later go to the nearest nightclub and be partying with people.

 

I think some may be overthinking this to believe that once you hit 30 points, its over for your character but it's not, simply once you hit 30 points, all the crimes you've been committing that never required a court case (felonies only) will now require a mandatory court trial just so the system can determine what's actually appropriate for your character.

 

Great job to the JSA team - I know you've all worked hard on getting this and I thank you. ?

 

I'm sorry but "courts" shouldn't have to decide how someone should roleplay their character. If they aren't breaking server rules, they shouldn't be called unrealistic. Who cares if someone has all those charges on them, it could be over a span of 3-4 years. You never know. Not everything has to be a real life simulation. 

 

@ Syrike Syrike said:

"Nothing about this is to fight off crime, the only thing this will affect is whether or not someone will commit to that sixth shooting in the same area. Think a crime is a little bit too risky to do right at this moment? Don't do it. Nothing about this kills crime, it just makes people do it smarter. There are so many factions that make a lot of money that are also illegal, they also do not draw attention from law enforcement. I would also like to point out that nearly all the responses to this thread are being made by LEO roleplayers, specifically from one faction with very little coming in from illegal RPers. So I am failing to see the huge impact as the people this affects most are not the ones complaining about it."

 

I'm on both sides of the fence here. I've talked to multiple good gangs and gang leaders on this and no one's on board with it. So I have no idea who they even talked to to implement this. This makes no one even want to roleplay a criminal. So yeah, it's killing crime. My whole point is some people want to be more reckless and draw more attention to create roleplay for law enforcement, and to well, be reckless. That shouldn't be punished by a CK.

[Syrike]

1 hour ago, eTaylor said:

If this is a measure to promote smarter crimes and better roleplay it’s a stupid measure with no consideration for the effects beyond it’s purpose. This has taken away all reasons for me to roleplay with law enforcement, or even consider giving them a chance. It means to me that every interaction I have with the law is liable to have my character deleted. It makes me significantly doubt whether having an illegal character is even a thing you people want. It makes me want to stop roleplaying a drug addict because I’d be punished for my roleplay. Simply existing will have my character deleted by the police.
 

All this does is punish you for roleplaying with the police. It will polarize more people, and cause much more problems with the them v us mentality. This also destroys roleplay. I understand this is made for cop killers and Forum Drive gangbangers, but what if you fall out of that category? What if you’re just trailer trash out in the sticks that has frequent run in with corrupt law? If there’s no way points expire any criminal character will be deleted in the long run. Good or bad. 
 

Not everyone wants to roleplay a clean cut super intelligent mafia wise guy called Tony Gabagool playing 8D underwater crime chess. Points should either only apply to violent and severe crime or expire after a few months. Expiration periods would have the same effect, but only cover people who go on stupid crime sprees with little regard. Keep your good criminal characters around, if you start killing them off most aren’t going to see a point in developing one well and you’ll be left with just throwaway accounts and secret society mobsters. 

Hi there, so you rp a drug addicted character, that is great but without him wandering about with enough drugs to get done for intent to distribute I don't see the issue, a drug addict would never have a huge stash as that usually earns them a one way ticket to an OD. As for corrupt law enforcement, these things do go to caught and dodgy charges do get dismissed. You do actually need to be formally charged and have a trial here it's not just a magical oh you have 30 points now I hit you with the life sentence stick.

[Syrike]

1 minute ago, AceS| said:

 

I'm sorry but "courts" shouldn't have to decide how someone should roleplay their character. If they aren't breaking server rules, they shouldn't be called unrealistic. Who cares if someone has all those charges on them, it could be over a span of 3-4 years. You never know. Not everything has to be a real life simulation. 

 

@ Syrike Syrike said:

"Nothing about this is to fight off crime, the only thing this will affect is whether or not someone will commit to that sixth shooting in the same area. Think a crime is a little bit too risky to do right at this moment? Don't do it. Nothing about this kills crime, it just makes people do it smarter. There are so many factions that make a lot of money that are also illegal, they also do not draw attention from law enforcement. I would also like to point out that nearly all the responses to this thread are being made by LEO roleplayers, specifically from one faction with very little coming in from illegal RPers. So I am failing to see the huge impact as the people this affects most are not the ones complaining about it."

 

I'm on both sides of the fence here. I've talked to multiple good gangs and gang leaders on this and no one's on board with it. So I have no idea who they even talked to to implement this. This makes no one even want to roleplay a criminal. So yeah, it's killing crime. My whole point is some people want to be more reckless and draw more attention to create roleplay for law enforcement, and to well, be reckless. That shouldn't be punished by a CK.

No criminal should be roleplaying with the intent to create roleplay for law enforcement, focus on your character and what they would do.

[Midsummer Night's Dream]

The community is not ready for this points system because the courts are not ready for this points system. A points system similar to California's system would be something to consider if there were actually fair trials and impartial, objective and trained decision-makers.  With all of the out-of-character restrictions, there aren't and that'd be evident if one thoroughly looked into it.

 

The courts routinely disregard fair trial guarantees in the name of expedience. One justification given was that this is a game and so there needs to be "balance;" but balance is not achieved when you curtail a defendant's ability to mount a defence.  To add to my confusion, this talk of achieving a balance — the "it's just a game" quip — is something I've now heard from both sides: those in this thread who are against the points system and who, presumably, have criminal characters; and those who are in favor of curtailing trials and have law enforcement characters.  (Too tragic and funny when we have courts who refuse to address their portrayal and realism issues because "it's just a game," and, at the same time, we have some roleplaying criminals who refuse a points system for habitual offenders for the same reason. It seems neither side wants to concede that there are realism issues on their end because, they say, the fact that they're playing a game absolves them of having to reach for realism).

 

I'd like to think that the statements about portrayal are sincere, but I find it hard to fathom that sacrificing basic guarantees — and ignoring realism issues running unabated in the courts — is necessary for achieving a "balance."  The statements about achieving a balance are even more appalling when those courts ignore the need to make criminal roleplay fun and, instead, expect realism from criminals.  In short: the courts can disregard realism on their end but expect it on the criminal's end.  This paradox causes me to question the motivation behind this points system and the 10-day time-limit on criminal proceedings. Are these really sincere attempts to enforce realism or are these just subtle moves to tilt the process? (Even if they are sincere attempts to fix realism issues, as many have said here, should it not be for illegal faction management to handle out-of-character).  Are these really sincere attempts to achieve a balance or are they just attempts to prosecute and condemn to a CK as many, and as quickly, habitual criminals as possible?  If the motivation for this points system is to encourage realistic criminal roleplay, it is only fair to demand that the courts should put their own house in order first. 

 

(When I say "put their own house in order," I mean to say that they should do that voluntarily; but if they don't then it should be forced through out-of-character roleplay quality enforcement. The same said of courts is said of criminal roleplay: realism and portrayal issues in both should be addressed by faction management if they are not addressed voluntarily)

 

To put this post into perspective, consider how the 10-day time-limit rule imposed on criminal proceedings would operate with the points system. This time limit is designed to minimize delay and, presumably, encourage plea bargaining. The points system, coupled with the time-limit rule, virtually guarantees life imprisonment or CK for anyone unfortunate enough to end up in court.  The whole of the criminal justice system can, thus, be summed up in this way:

 

1. The accused is brought before a court, and then coaxed into pleading guilty because they have only a few days to make their case once they are through preliminary, discovery, and the prosecution's opening.

2. When they do enter a guilty plea, they are convicted; but when they don't — when they instead proceed to trial — whatever remains of the 10 days is rarely enough (one recent trial took seven days just to get through a pre-trial preliminary hearing) and they end up being summarily convicted and (if the convictions are for felonies) rack up points.  (And that's aside from the fact that summarily convicting an accused is troubling from a U.S. perspective).

3.  When the accused pleads guilty, they rack up points; and, eventually, they are before the court again, this time facing life imprisonment or CK under the points system. However, they run into the same issues as in their earlier proceedings: coaxed into entering guilty by a 10-day time-limit, or summarily convicted in less than 10 days.  Ultimately, in 10 days, they are summarily condemned to life imprisonment or CK.

4.  All of this moderated by judges who appear to be untrained (there are examples of realism and portrayal difficulties that could be remedied with adequate training), minimally-qualified and who apply rules in an inconsistent fashion. Very little of it is balanced — perhaps the only fairness in it all is that an accused is permitted to, at least, say something to the court during the process.

 

If we are to put the fate of members' characters and roleplay into the police’s and courts' hands, I expect — at bare minimum — some training and a process that doesn't routinely disregard the rights of criminal defendants.  Allow them to mount a defence and test it objectively; because that is what they are entitled to.  This isn't just "legal nuance" or head-spinning niceties — I am speaking about basic guarantees for which there is no gray area.

 

I am speaking of expectations for which there hasn't been gray areas for at least half a century.

 

The 10-day time-limit is not compatible with realism if realism is the goal. Consider removing it, and provide training, and then one can say there is enough progress to consider discussing the move towards a points system. It's only fair to put your own house in order before criticizing criminal portrayal and implementing an overhaul that'll have some impact on that roleplay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Midsummer Night's Dream