The Police Department & You

[Ronnie two poles]

Just now, Declan said:

and this is why academy's should be brought back 

I kind of agree, I feel like a lot of the stuff they try to push on POIs such as the big checklist I detail or the two additional courses needed to be promoted to be a POII, in real life would have been thrown and included in the police academy. After the police academy and the passing of the exam, you would be rewarded with the certifications of completing those courses at the academy. Remove the filler from the manual and the academy would be shorter so you could fit in those two classes, if they're really even that necessary. Does it not seem silly that after you just RP'd being fresh out the academy which took months, you have to take two basic courses you'd think would be included in the RP'd academy. It's silly and backwards.    

[Westen]

2 minutes ago, Ronnie two poles said:

I kind of agree, I feel like a lot of the stuff they try to push on POIs such as the big checklist I detail or the two additional courses needed to be promoted to be a POII, in real life would have been thrown and included in the police academy. After the police academy and the passing of the exam, you would be rewarded with the certifications of completing those courses at the academy.

You keep bringing up these two courses so I thought I'd chime in.

 

Hi, I play John Curtis, the Lieutenant responsible for the Police Training and Education Division. This is the division responsible for the majority of in service training within the PD, including these two courses - Emergency Vehicle Operators' Course and Basic First Aid.

 

These courses were introduced with the removal of the IG academy; there then being a gap in knowledge that needed to be addressed. There were a number of other problems that needed to be addressed, including:

 

• A rather significant number of officer-involved crashes as a result of red mist or just not knowing how to properly drive during pursuits.
• Officers not being useful on scenes due to a lack of first aid knowledge at even a very basic level (applying a tourniquet etc).

So, as a result, these courses were created.

 

The first course, EVOC, is, in my and the opinion of many others, essential. If you've roleplayed a cop before and you know how to update and drive during pursuits, it might be a useless course - but for the large majority of P1s who haven't had the chance to drive or update in GTA V, feedback has indicated that the course is valuable in providing both practical experience and confidence when it comes to pursuit driving and updating. This has led to a significantly reduced number of officer involved MVAs where the officer is at fault. That can't be abstracted to an R&U in a manual.

 

With respect to your points about Basic First Aid, this is something I am currently looking at - I'm aware it could do with improvement and will feed this thread back to see what can be done, although I would suggest that this course is not one that can be entirely abstracted to an R&U either; I have seen a lot of people freeze up when confronted with medical scenes, and maybe a more practical course would go some way to fixing that.

 

If you haven't already, please fill out the post course feedback form which is reviewed after every class. If you have any questions or feedback about the courses, you're more than welcome to shoot me a PM on discord (Westie#1543).

 

[Exploits]

10 minutes ago, Westen said:

-snip-

 

This is sort of the issue, isn't it? I'm not going to chide you for reaching out -- it's appreciated, in fact. I also won't argue that EVOC isn't necessary because oh my god I saw what things were like before we were testing driving skills and it was baaaaaaaaaad, almost beyond words. But what strikes me is that these issues were created. There was no need for a separate training program for EVOC because driving was at least minimally tested during the role-play academy and egregiously bad drivers could be sussed out quickly. First aid training, I don't recall if it was a part of the role-play academy, but it can easily be introduced to one. Gutting one portion of role-play had a knockdown effect of quality across the entire faction: basics are no longer covered, role-play is not tested before the faction invite is given, and from the word 'go', the faction operates as an entity which is separate and impersonal from even its newest members.

 

And again, this is not criticism to you or for reaching out. But your solution to suggestions is to provide more paperwork-based feedback so as to communicate on the problems OoCly. What exactly is the police department, ICly? Does it even exist? If I were to return as an Officer I, and feel, as a character, that the training program(s) or recruitment was insufficient, is there a person I could speak to in-character to have my problems heard and see work done to improve it?

 

There's always going to be some amount of paperwork. You do, in fact, need a list of rules. But so much of the faction, theoretically one which exists on a server which purports heavy role-play, simply does not role-play. It cannot role-play, because the basis of its functions don't operate in-game through role-play. You forum PM somebody with a green name, talk to them on TeamSpeak, and then somebody makes a big forum post a month later. None of these things involve role-play, and role-play is legitimately viewed as an obstacle to integrating these changes. There are cops, and they are part of the LSPD, and some are excellent role-players -- but where is the actual organization? How does the LSPD role-play? Not the members, but the faction as an entity.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Exploits

[Westen]

1 minute ago, Exploits said:

 

And again, this is not criticism to you or for reaching out. But your solution to suggestions is to provide more paperwork-based feedback so as to communicate on the problems OoCly. What exactly is the police department, ICly? Does it even exist? If I were to return as an Officer I, and feel, as a character, that the training program(s) or recruitment was insufficient, is there a person I could speak to in-character to have my problems heard and see work done to improve it?

I think the issue here is - and I might be wrong - but there will ALWAYS be an OOC element to improvement. For example, I would have to take time out of my day to sit down and plan changes to a manual - draft manual changes; and then implement those changes. It is entirely possible to provide feedback ICly, but in terms of constructive feedback it's best given over IC email so that there is a record of it, i.e. forum PMs - that's still paperwork-based feedback.

[Sebz]

Simple fix sounds to me like: Combine the two classes into one course that is taken by academy students BEFORE graduation. I think the consensus above is that once you actually get a P1 position, the stress of finding FTOs and completing the program is too much to combine with having to schedule and handle these courses. Don't bring the whole academy back, nobody wants to do a jumping jacks animation and roleplay sweating. Implement these two courses as part of the academy student process and you should fix all the issues without much extra thought having to go into it.

 

No matter what you do, the FTP is going to suck. Finding FTOs has been a problem since the stone age of LSRP. Let them figure out the field training patrols and do your part by streamlining the training process.

[Exploits]

1 minute ago, Westen said:

I think the issue here is - and I might be wrong - but there will ALWAYS be an OOC element to improvement. 

 Of course. Even if we deliberated for months in-game in smokey backrooms about a rule change, there will be a time where someone will have to go to the forum and edit that big list of rules. It is, to a degree, a necessity in order to have a structure we can point to. But is anything being done to bridge that gap between what is necessary OoC and what can be done IC? I've certainly not seen it during either of my stints in the PD here, and it is frankly a rarity in most departments on any server.

 

Role-play first.

[Ronnie two poles]

7 minutes ago, Westen said:

You keep bringing up these two courses so I thought I'd chime in.

 

Hi, I play John Curtis, the Lieutenant responsible for the Police Training and Education Division. This is the division responsible for the majority of in service training within the PD, including these two courses - Emergency Vehicle Operators' Course and Basic First Aid.

 

These courses were introduced with the removal of the IG academy; there then being a gap in knowledge that needed to be addressed. There were a number of other problems that needed to be addressed, including:

 

• A rather significant number of officer-involved crashes as a result of red mist or just not knowing how to properly drive during pursuits.
• Officers not being useful on scenes due to a lack of first aid knowledge at even a very basic level (applying a tourniquet etc).

So, as a result, these courses were created.

 

The first course, EVOC, is, in my and the opinion of many others, essential. If you've roleplayed a cop before and you know how to update and drive during pursuits, it might be a useless course - but for the large majority of P1s who haven't had the chance to drive or update in GTA V, feedback has indicated that the course is valuable in providing both practical experience and confidence when it comes to pursuit driving and updating. This has led to a significantly reduced number of officer involved MVAs where the officer is at fault. That can't be abstracted to an R&U in a manual.

 

With respect to your points about Basic First Aid, this is something I am currently looking at - I'm aware it could do with improvement and will feed this thread back to see what can be done, although I would suggest that this course is not one that can be entirely abstracted to an R&U either; I have seen a lot of people freeze up when confronted with medical scenes, and maybe a more practical course would go some way to fixing that.

 

If you haven't already, please fill out the post course feedback form which is reviewed after every class. If you have any questions or feedback about the courses, you're more than welcome to shoot me a PM on discord (Westie#1543).

 

 

It's not hard to drive during pursuits, it's been the same for years. I think everyone gets the jist of follow the leader. Those courses weren't even a thing until a few months ago, do all those people need to go back and take the course? No. Nobody needs those courses. It is filler. You go on about how people crash due to lack of knowledge, but what does that even mean? It's not that hard to be told to follow the pursuit line and take lead when necessary. Plus, EVOC is pointless when one of the POI checklists detail "Non-Emergency Driving, Emergency Driving, Pursuit Protocol and finally Interception Tactics."  If I'm taking an entire course on EVOC, why is it even part of my checklist in the first place? It's redundant.  How hard is it to stay in line until it's your turn to be lead if need be. How many times does someone need to learn that? If you think officers aren't being useful on a scene due to lack of first aid knowledge, I'd have to disagree. There's usually just too many people at a scene that everyone cannot be busy. Most of the time it's 1-2 people injured at the very most and in rare cases, more. How many officers do you actually need giving first aid? Basic first aid should remain basic first aid it's simple and called "baisc" for a reason, you don't need to make an entire course to remind someone to do something as simple as that considering there probably is too many people there to be the one doing the basic first aid RP anyways.

 

All these people on here are struggling to join the faction in the first place, go through the headache of even joining just to be piled onto a bunch of redundant material/requirements to get to the next rank.

[shak]

I honestly don't think the courses are the problem. P-1's had to do similar courses on LSRP as well. Having been a P-1 before the checklist came into play and after as well, I really believe it is solely the checklist that serves as the biggest point of contention among new recruits. I can only speak for myself, but I found it extremely difficult to finish my checklist. Even FTO's were confused about it during my time. I get the intent behind it, but having 80-100 checks to mark off with each one requiring thorough explanations or examples to be checked off is a lot to expect from people who already spent a lot of effort getting in. The reason is because during a field training patrol, there are too many in-game situations that require immediate attention from a basic unit at any given time. This makes it difficult to spend the necessary time to go through the checklist ICly in a timely manner, which results in fewer checkmarks per patrol being marked off and subsequently requires the P-1 to get more FTPs to make up for it, which are already hard to get. Not to mention the evaluations and other requirements to pass (courses).

 

My suggestion? Simply make the checklist more streamlined. Make it 30-50 checkmarks at most with only the most important aspects of police RP knowledge required. Add a requirement of at least one arrest. I think this would be much more feasible and remove a lot of unnecessary workload from both FTO's and P-1's.

[Wally]

Hello, I play Wallace Foster, I used to be the EVOC course Coordinator. From my experience not everyone who joins the PD has roleplayed a police officer before and they have no idea what emergency driving is. Also updating in a pursuit is very crucial and requires "confidence" if your new to Roleplaying a police officer you probably won't have the "confidence" and this helps people build on it.  The course in itself is to focus on SAFELY pursuing a suspect, I personally stress how it's better to loose a suspect then chase him and cause a accident. 

 

Furthermore, sure you have countless years of experience role-playing a police officer, however your character that joins the pd does not so he is fairly new and in training. I've seen many PIs who've been role-playing a police officer for countless years but are new to the lspd on Gtaw so they purposefully act like their character is clueless and it is good to see. 

 

On the topic for academies, you have to take into account that having a in game academy requires a lot of planning and instructors. In my opinion instructing an academy is fun the first few times but instructing it over and over is just not fun and feels like a chore that's why I like the removal of the in game academy.

 

As for the checklist, i do agree that some of the items on it are unnecessary, but majority are important. The point of the checklist is to ensure the officer knows the topics and is ready to patrol own his own. 

 

Being a PI may feel robocopish I think this is because as a PI your kinda like a probitonary officer and don't want to mess up, once you get yourself out of the field training stage I can personally say you have more freedom when it comes to your roleplay. 

 

 

Overall if your someone who's been role-playing a police officer for a long time and start fresh here the field training stage may feel like a chore. The field training stage is the way it is so even people who've never roleplayed a police officer can learn the ropes, however there are also many things that are different here then they are on other severs. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Wally

[Ronnie two poles]

57 minutes ago, Wally said:

.

"Hello, I play Wallace Foster, I used to be the EVOC course Coordinator. From my experience not everyone who joins the PD has roleplayed a police officer before and they have no idea what emergency driving is. Also updating in a pursuit is very crucial and requires "confidence" if your new to Roleplaying a police officer you probably won't have the "confidence" and this helps people build on it.  The course in itself is to focus on SAFELY pursuing a suspect, I personally stress how it's better to loose a suspect then chase him and cause a accident."

 

A lot of pursuits are called off IRL, what do you mean it requires confidence? You look down at the GPS in the lower left corner and you say the direction and street name...it's not rocket science. It doesn't require a bachelors to use common sense to not drive recklessly, it's a video game after all and I understand the aspect of realism, but again people have been doing this for years and it's something that can be firmly introduced in a better thought out manual not some course. You're over complicating things that aren't really that hard to understand. You can sum up pursuits into a few quick sentences and monkey see monkey do, people will understand that it's not that deep lol. 

 

"Furthermore, sure you have countless years of experience role-playing a police officer, however your character that joins the pd does not so he is fairly new and in training. I've seen many PIs who've been role-playing a police officer for countless years but are new to the lspd on Gtaw so they purposefully act like their character is clueless and it is good to see. "

 

I did that too but it kind of sucks when your FTP focuses more around being a drill sergeant or End of Watch instead of helping you understand everything. Then when they conclude the patrol they only mark off 4 out of 105 marks needed to advance. On average you'd be lucky to get about 5-9 marks so with that knowledge lets say you do happen to get 6 marks per patrol and you need all of them to proceed that means you'd need about 17 patrols total to be a POII. It's not needed, there is not that much to understand in this faction. Like I said, we conclude every situation in a very similar fashion. 

 

"As for the checklist, i do agree that some of the items on it are unnecessary, but majority are important. The point of the checklist is to ensure the officer knows the topics and is ready to patrol own his own. "

 

RPly the officer should know everything post exam...that sounds like working backwards.

 

"Being a PI may feel robocopish I think this is because as a PI your kinda like a probitonary officer and don't want to mess up, once you get yourself out of the field training stage I can personally say you have more freedom when it comes to your roleplay."

 

I semi agree. I feel like what I've seen so far is just people following a pattern of waiting and waiting, getting someone to take them to go conclude a typical scene. I luckily had one good FTP that my partner actually did some unique roleplay and was RPing with civilians etc. More people should follow suit, everything else seems robotic and subpar. 

 

"Overall if your someone who's been role-playing a police officer for a long time and start fresh here the field training stage may feel like a chore. The field training stage is the way it is so even people who've never roleplayed a police officer can learn the ropes, however there are also many things that are different here then they are on other severs."

 

Regardless of the RP experience you come from, it should never be filler and equal to the amount of a part time job.