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About Brett

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  1. Simple solution. Have the IC government pass some restrictions on the type of advertisements that can be done, with penalties attached. No need for anything OOC, and allows some flexibility.
  2. Yes. Unless some new rules, systems, etc are made on an OOC level in order to better accommodate such childlike characters. all will be tried as adults and dealt with as such.
  3. Brett

    Sorry, maybe I'm just tired and not seeing it. What exactly would you like my clarification on here?
  4. Brett

    Thank you for the support in this.
  5. @Serendipity - To answer your questions; 1.) Players can represent themselves in a trial at any time, and it doesn't matter if they really know the law or not. If they want to take the case into their own hands and don't know what they're doing, that's on them. And will effect trial outcomes, just like it would be IRL. So the risk is truly on them to take, as it's impossible to ascertain knowledge of someone on the spot in a courtroom on law when we need to keep the trial processing. 2.) Court appointed lawyers do already exist, and we do assign them to people who request them. 3.) We do give recess times if there are legitimate reasons, and they may be extended for legitimate reasons. And since we have an official Public Defenders office, I doubt these will be much of a problem when it comes to getting someone an attorney if they need one. 4.) There will not be jury trials, as that would be too much of a pain. But we will be implementing life sentencing/capital punishments. It's something I've been planning for a while, but it's dependent on a lot of other factors that I'm working towards. Hey, if anyone wants to snaz it up like us. I hope they're really packing a sense of style ;). And I appreciate what you said immensely, and will continue to carry this admiration into the future. As for your questions, I believe the cooperation has been really great. It started off a bit rocky (Mainly because I was new, and people didn't know what to expect.) But it really ironed itself out to build a rather strong foundation and I have no issues with that. The same styles I have done with the PD, I plan to keep with the SD and build across all gov/legal factions. I doubt much of my strategy will change here, and if it does I'll let everyone know. As for future improvements to the system, a few things on my list are as follows; Officially reorganize the BAR Association, so that it's more self-sufficient and self-governing. With places to register complaints, code of ethics, etc. Along with instituting a tiered BAR system to separate types of attorneys. Upgrade the Penal Code in terms of sentencing, with the introduction of new concepts, and refining of old. (Can't really go much more into detail here on that.) Finish instituting the trial systems for all levels of the court from Superior, Appellate, and Supreme. To get even more formal in process and procedure as you go up. Continue working with the LEO factions, to ensure we all remain on the same page in regards to our standards. And continue to build working relationships. Continue creating State Laws for things we need, in order to ensure there is a basis for a lot of things that happen IG. There's a lot of mini objectives in this, but these are some of the core right at the moment. After all that, I'm sure I'll add more.
  6. Brett

    I mean...he did link you a video self-identified as "Deathmatching." Did you expect quality roleplay lol? This isn't meant to be offensive, just jokes.
  7. Brett

    To the above @MikeTheMike. 1.) The point that if the script has killed you, your odds of survival are low that you were trying to make had zero relation to the words you put in the reply. Because your reply to this point indicated that you were talking about medical care in general, in regards to people just being casually injured and not PK'd. Hence how I responded in the way I did. This wasn't out of context, when you talk about how many shots it takes to die, and then say the system is rather realistic. There's no reasonable way I could've made your point out to be that "if you're killed according to how the script functions your realistic chance of survival is at phenomenally low." You missed the mark on this one with your point, but I thank you for the clarification now. 2.) I agree with you that if someone is shot in the head, they most likely aren't surviving. But that wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about the Pre-PK situations, where you can shoot someone in the head once and a vast majority will act as if that didn't happen and back it up by "Well, I didn't scriptwise die. So I wasn't really injured that bad." And Headshots are not common IRL, at all. And no serious shooter or casual shooter just aims for the head IRL, you aim center-mass because it gives you the highest percentage to hit. If you're talking about Headshots in the IG, then that's sad, but even then I don't see how it's relevant to this conversation. 3.) Currently any death CAN result in a CK now. What's your point? And you're right, nobody has RP'd coming out the hospital after a PK. Because under the current system, PK's are treated as if they were murdered, yet the script spawns them at the hospital. That's my only point I was making, in that scriptwise by server function it spawns PK'd people at the hospital. And so there is some inherent belief in that the hospital and your supposed "death," have some relation that is acknowledged even subtly. 4.) A lot of the difference between the two have to do with reasoning, and yes circumstance does matter in some respect, but again murder isn't something you do just willy-nilly. There was a completely separate thread here talking about the piss poor PK's being conducted that got a lot of traction for the discussion which you can see here to prove my point. A lot of things that usually become PK's, are kinda shitty in general. And wouldn't pass a CK muster for a true murder. And that was my only point. And nobody is arguing into transitioning stuff into a CK from previous stuff. Idk where that came from. 5.) In YOUR opinion it's "fine." Because you're the active one who at least in my interpretation, seems to benefit from the system being PK's. But I guarantee you the other side who had some other RP going on and would like to keep that RP, aren't satisfied when they have to erase a lot of their previous RP just to accommodate you. And for someone here claiming how we can't be too realistic, it's very interesting how somehow Chicago is going to now be a staple of your argument to a situation which has nothing to do with murder rates, or crime rates. We're talking about an RP concept, not crime statistics of a city. 6.) We weren't arguing flexibility, or reliability of the system. We were arguing if it was entirely realistic. This entire paragraph of yours is therefor irrelevant 100% to the conversation. 7.) You act like we're removing PK's. We're not. Spur of the moment stuff is still going to exist. And since we can't "prove," the amount of reports and such that will come in the future either way. I'm not going to address that, because you can't 100% say that's going to happen or not. 8.) Extreme views of what? A lot of people on this thread actually advocated going even farther with the CK's, then I have to the point I had to bring the topic back to what we are actually discussing. This isn't an extreme view in the slightest, just to get a definition. 9.) Refer to this entire thread, for a quick debunking of how untrue this is. 10.) Red herring, I never said we should only enforce CK's. Nor is that anything my suggestion advocates or requests. 11.) And here we go again with this "It's flawed," yet you still have not provided a single example. This is legitimately the third time I have asked you for EXAMPLES. Like, an actual situation where my system would be flawed. And you're hiding behind the, "Well it's just flawed." And acting like that in itself is proof for why it's flawed. One example of how this system can fail, please provide. If you can't, then you're just making stuff up.
  8. Brett

    I'll just bang these out since it's your final reply, and I'll just go by quotation: 1.) " It takes 4 shots, minimum to kill someone & a fifth to finish them off if they're in brutally wounded. The current system already accounts for players being able to realistically survive their injuries." You would be one of the first people I've met, that believes the current way the health system works accounts for someone realistically surviving an injury. If I get into a traffic accident right now on the server, my health isn't going to just go to zero. Despite the fact I'm not scriptwise wearing any protective gear like a seatbelt (Even if I RP it), and realistically if I don't put on an RP seatbelt for my crash I may fly through the windshield and out on the street giving me serious injuries, but the current health system doesn't reflect those realities nor can it. Or what if you shoot someone 1 time in the heart IG, or one time in the head. That won't be a PK, yet you clearly put a bullet towards it and they're fine according to the script and for some reason you believe the current health system realistically allows for survival of these injuries, when it in no way is even close. You are truly the very first person to ever make the argument that the current health system realistically accounts for survivability of injuries, no matter what they are. 2.) "Gangsters don't check pulses, they just aim for the head. I'm not sure about you, but, I love watching videos of shootouts, and I assure you, you can reasonably predict if someone's still alive after a shooting as if you want someone dead, you're probably going to keep shooting until they stop moving." You're right, they don't. Thanks for agreeing with me here as I said this at least twice. And just because someone stops moving if you shoot them, doesn't mean they're dead. States of Unconsciousness by traumatic injuries exists. 3.) "What if I just legitimately make sure he's dead?.. Which does happen, believe it or not. This also doesn't account for how they'd make it to the hospital." There would be no need to do that, if this was OOCly defined for PK's overall that it wouldn't be a full death so no "executions," would be able to be done in this manner. And you already respawn at the hospital when you die scriptwise. So clearly, even the script and server supports the idea that somehow these people got to the hospital. This isn't breaking any new ground that hasn't been acknowledged in some way lol. 4.) "It's not really piss-poor roleplay, not only did I kill that person for what-ever reason I did in accordance to server rules and standards - NOW I have someone walking around who I attempted to murder, Making me even more shook and desperate to get this person off the streets. If that's poor roleplay in your book, idk what to tell you." If you're legitimately trying to kill someone off permanently, it would be a CK. I called it piss-poor roleplay, because if you're that entrenched into ensuring someone actually truly dies, you would put in the work to ensure it would be a CK. Otherwise you're just deathmatching people, for stupid reasons. If you know from the OOC rules that a PK doesn't equal a murder, then you would roleplay any scenes associated with PK's differently. So that if you TRULY want to murder someone, it would be a CK and not a PK either by force (Application or Admin) or they voluntarily take it. This would be a non-issue. 5.) "Your suggestion only benefits one side & even if I was a gang detective here at this very moment, I still wouldn't support this system as it's unfair and cannot realistically account for most of the deaths that occur on GTAW." It doesn't benefit one side or the other, at all. It legit just makes it clear that PK's are not homicides, and CK's are. You RP accordingly with this information to either make your kills full homicides, or just spur of the moment violence like was mentioned in my earlier posts by another roleplayer who I tagged. The current system only benefits one side, because it effectively allows the criminal to destroy pretty much everyones roleplay from the victim (Who isn't allowed to remember anything about the incident or what happened before it thereby destroying any potential statements.), police/courts (Because they have to treat these interactions as homicides, and devote time to making casefiles and getting witness statements when the person PK'd is still actively walking around and probably having other run-ins with the police that they just have to conveniently ignore), medical personnel (Because they have to generate coroners reports, or other medical information on someone not actually dead.), bystanders (Because they have to destroy any real roleplay associated with the victim of the crime, if they were having any interactions with them prior to their deaths as it's basically treated as an NPC that got whacked.) And those are just off the top of my head. I think you're making this a problem, when it isn't. 6.) You're right, players are absolutely required to roleplay out their injuries & I'd bet that if you were shot 6 times you'd be as good as dead without alot of luck, and prompt medication attention - but, again - this is a game and the 'health' system is simply a way to make the game fun, and fair. You just told me the health system was realistic, and now you're telling me that it may not be. This is what I mean by you giving out contradictory statements that make no sense. Because either you agree with me that the health system cannot accurately portray all injuries and is subject to a lot of faults, or you believe the opposite. You can't believe both at the same time, not how it works. 7.) Some real-life concepts are ignored for the sake of everyones sanity, and seamlessness. (Admins like to RP too!) We let the death/health system implemented to make that decision for us so it's fair to everyone across the board - without it - it'd be chaos. I legitimately don't know why you brought this up, because it has nothing to do with this entire conversation. We're not implementing real-life concepts like a health injury system here. We're talking about simply defining the difference of an existing PK and CK, so people can properly roleplay them with OOC guidance in the server rules. Similiar to how we write any other server rule. This is a red herring you keep making up, that has no basis. 8.) You're an extreme minority on GTAW, and it'd be realistically impossible to develop a proper game mode, and find the active playerbase that truly plays by the rules, doesn't manipulate them and administration willing to baby-sit everyone, and overlook everything that happens. It's impressive what's already been accomplished here & I assure you, it wasn't easy. Wut? How-....did you make this sentence? What am I an extreme minority in? When did I advocate such a playerbase exist? And what does any of this have to do with what's been accomplished on the server and how easy it was to do? I feel like you either entirely just made this up, or you have some really poor interpretation of what I've been saying. Because this is not in the slightest relevant, nor does it make any sense in the context of our conversation. 9.) Your system relies on the fact that they can't 'confirm they're dead', this, in-turn would influence everyones decisions and unfairly 'check' and over-roleplay situations to ensure everyone they killed was a CK, since they have the 'confirmation', this turns something stupid into a valid CK. I didn't say they "can't confirm they're dead." I said that they don't, because that would be stupid in the heat of the moment. So this is false. And idk what you are claiming is "over-roleplay," in a situation. But my point has been that, if you're legitimately gun-ho on murdering someone. Then it's best to legitimately make a case for why they should be murdered. Murder is not easy to do, nor do people just go around doing it willy-nilly like it's the average Sunday activity. If you're going to do it, you should have proper reasoning backing it up. And if the reasoning is proper, I don't see why it can't just be upgraded into a CK. Spur of the moment stuff can simply be a PK. And that's fine. And there are already enough safeguards to protect against any stupid CK's, so I don't see this as being a legitimate counter unless you have problems with the current CK system procedures for how they're granted which is separate. 10.) There are people here that play on the 'borderline' of the rules, and people who'd make characters specifically to kill others on - you'd need a whole team dedicated to make sure people weren't abusing their power/making new characters when-ever killing everyone bit them in the ass & roleplaying on that same character as-if they were the last one with no consequence. Not sure what you define as "borderline," but if someone is truly playing that close to the line of breaking rules. They probably are a shit tier roleplayer who shouldn't be on the server to begin with. And there's a limit of how many characters that can be created, and if some roleplayer is constantly making all this character slots murderers just to go mess with people, that would be an issue for player management alone to go and correct. Since they correct shit like that quite often, and they do take that stuff seriously. If it's a pattern with someone, they'll be dealt with. 11.) I think you're inexperienced in the grand scheme and don't completely understand how much of a dramatic negative mess this'd bring. We're here to have fun, whilst taking into account others' experiences. I know the system you're proposing won't work for the simple fact that I've been in situations where I 'thought' a player died, and this lead to me actually killing them for the second time(The player had no complaints and recognized my right to from the start). The fact I was forced to murder someone today in a fashion that wouldn't be covered by the system you've wrote. I think you should just sit back and wait to see how the body system plays out, it may fix many of the issues you have with how everything currently works. This is the last thing I'll quote since it's pretty much the end but, you thorough this entire conversation could not name how this would bring a negative effect to the server and I asked for specifics, which you couldn't provide. Your responses this whole time have been "It's just bad. It'll be bad. It'll be negative." Yet never actually gave an example as to how. You got an example, then reply with one. Otherwise you're just basically hating on a system, simply because you dislike it. And I can't speak about this "situation," where you thought a player died because I wasn't there nor do I know the details. But the way I am interpreting it, is that you basically tried to PK someone and failed thinking you got them. And then later you found out there weren't PK'd and shot them again to finish it off. If that's the case, then you didn't "kill," him twice since he never died in the first place. Unless you're being extremely loose on terms and I'm not understanding you here. And I would love to hear this fashion of which you murdered someone, that somehow wouldn't be covered under the system that merely defines an existing system that deals with PK and CK's, because my suggestion doesn't change the PK's or CK's in terms of them being done. It just defines how we are to take them in a RP sense and thus wouldn't effect them in such a way that somehow by defining them the new system can't fit your RP. And this is just an observation, but I honestly don't think you understand what I'm trying to tell you. Because if you think the new body system is going to solve my issue, then I don't even really think you understand what the issue has been, because there is absolutely no way if you truly did understand it that you would make a comment believing the new body system would somehow magically fix a definition of an RP concept. Simply put, and as I said before I mean no disrespect even though I'm being rather candid, I don't think you've listened to most of what I've or others have said on the thread and I think you're really confused and believe this does something that it doesn't. Because I am not the first person to tell you this stuff, and a lot of this has been regurgitation of information I've said and so have others to the point that I quoted from them directly. Since it's your last reply, I don't expect a response. But that's what I believe has been going on.
  9. Brett

    "It is not allowed to perform actions which would not be possible in real life either, this is not limited to roleplay through /me." So-...are you powergaming a PK by engaging in conversation with someone you PK'd or in your words, "murdered." I would say so. Because if you are legitimately going to hold the line that a PK is a legitimate murder of someone, and then you meet the someone later in an interaction, logic dictates you cannot have a conversation with a dead person as this would be powergaming. This is why I believe it's important to redefine the PK to a near death more so then a death, because this is the kind of oddity that is not as ignorable as you might believe. Now to your points: 1.) 95% Majority of people don't ensure they're dead. I've never in my years of rolepalying every witnessed someone after shooting them in a PK situation, go and check a pulse. Breathing rate, or any legitimate way to determine someone is dead after shooting them. A majority simply run away after doing it, to avoid being caught. Which is the appropriate and logical response if you just committed a heinous crime in public. And to this, "Furthermore, if I seen someone I had just "PKed" for a legitimate reason on the street, I'd kill them again.' Then you're a deathmatcher, who simply wants to kill people and not roleplay. If you seriously had THAT big of a problem with someone to the point they NEED to be killed, you would be going for a CK not a PK. The fact that you admitted that would be your response, tells me that you have a rather deathmatch style attitude towards roleplay, and that's a problem in itself. 2.) You can get shot multiple times with a lot of weapons, and not be PK'd at all. If I get shot 6 times with a pistol and don't die (PK/CK), that doesn't negate that I was shot times. Anymore then if I get into a traffic accident IG, just because I didn't get PK'd doesn't mean I don't have serious damage and possible traumatic injury. So this whole "David shot you eight times," is rather silly to bring up. Because there's a million other cases of people who get shot, or run over, or some other stupid thing where they don't get PK'd but would be usually dead IRL or whatever and we just RP that as we may and nobody has a problem with it. If you're going to hold the standard of that, don't just hold it to PK's. Hold it to anything that causes serious injury. (AKA: If you get run over by a car, but don't get PK'd. Yet would have massive internal bleeding, or what not to the point you should be dead.) You can't advocate double standards here. And two, going back to this deathmatch style mentality, "Now Jimmy's going to go over and kill David as he's learned his shooters identity and/or talk to the police" Okay. Maybe he talks to the police, or maybe he attempts to file for a CK on you for attempting to murder him. Either way, it would be justified. Now if you're both just endlessly trying to go for PK's, you're both just being shit tier roleplayers. At some point you need to take consequences for your actions, and if you're going to kill someone or attempt to kill them over dumb shit (Which as even someone else mentioned in this thread, happens quite a bit), you should prepare to get some stuff thrown back your way. Wanna step into the kitchen, then prepare to take the heat. Otherwise, don't set yourself up for retaliation without a reason. 3.) You made this up. In this situation where his long-time "friend," shot him. And he finds out about it, they can RP that as they want. This is a player driven choice, that this rule wouldn't hinder or make. If you're legitimately trying to murder your friend, even under the current system, why the hell would you be interacting with him later like. "Yo', what's up homie." When you just earlier were blasting his ass. That is-...so poor, so stupid, and so monstrously dumb on the part of someone who does that. I honestly don't understand why this was even brought up. If the friend is trying to kill his friend, even right now. Then clearly he doesn't want to engage in friendly interactions. Under this system, that wouldn't change. Although it would allow for the possibility of the friend to learn what truly happened if he icly finds out the details. And to your point of, "I'm sorry, but.... admin intervention doesn't automatically invalidate roleplay - people make mistakes and administration we'll continue to need administrators aslong as the server continues. " I never said it did, I never claimed it did, your putting words in my mouth. I said and I quote, "No true RP that's well done, and makes sense, requires a /report. IF you need a /report to handle an RP, something has gone wrong. Unless of course it's something only an admin can do like spawn items, or open a door, or something. " Admins are called in mostly to deal with dispute resolution between players, violations of rules, or handling of affairs legitimately only an admin can handle that needs to be done for a player IE the opening of door comment, etc. Again, you're making a lot of claims about things, but not actually basing any of it in any evidence. And you don't seem to actually understand what we're trying to advocate for here, and seem to honestly be lost on the topic. This isn't hard to understand, and i'm not the first person to tell you how you were wrong on some of your details when you replied. I'm not saying this to be a dick or anything to you, but I'm saying this because a lot of what you're bring up is claims with zero support, contradictory facts that make no sense in your own sentences, misinterpretations of things I did not say or advocate, and just dismissals of information on the grounds of "Well it just will complicate things," without actually giving us examples of how it will complicate that hasn't been easily explained away. I'll quote Mr. @Henning from earlier (Thanks for this dawg); Which is exactly in line with the suggestion, for the exact same reasons.
  10. Brett

    Just a note, the topic isn't really about every death being a CK or not. That's just a side note people personally claim to advocate, but the core of this suggestion has nothing to do with that. Still appreciate the input though, but do want to clear up any possible confusion with that just to not go off topic. 1.) Yea, the suspect may believe they killed someone. Just like a robber IRL who shots someone and they rush away after seeing them fall to the ground, may believe they killed someone. This is not reality breaking, as these people aren't going to be rply checking pulses and everything after a shooting. But trying to evade before police come, etc. This is a non-issue. 2.) Under this definition, a PK'd person may not remember details of the shooter, but can still remember being involved in a shooting that landed them in the hospital. Maybe their friends (If they were there and didn't get PK'd), can later fill them in on details ICly and this could lead to further RP developments in relation. They can wipe the memory of the shooter, but still have the memory of being involved in a shooting and the inherent "fuzzyness," this brings to their memory can be used positively and in a way that makes sense. This is a non-issue. 3.) This isn't an issue. This is what we want to happen. Because since the victim isn't actually dead, the detectives would be investigating a possible homicide attempt as that is what it is. And the courts would be able to call the victim as a witness to describe the lead up to the shooting, even like I said before if they can't remember the shooter, but still have memory of being involved in some gun fight. This opens up a lot of RP opportunities, and ways for others around them to build up RP in response. This isn't breaking any reality, it's actually fixing it. So idk what you mean by wrong, because none of these are issues or exactly what should be happening. And with your point of, "I've never had a legitimate problem regarding a PK that wasn't properly dealt with with a simple /report." Is true. Then that's the very issue. No true RP that's well done, and makes sense, requires a /report. IF you need a /report to handle an RP, something has gone wrong. Unless of course it's something only an admin can do like spawn items, or open a door, or something.
  11. Brett

    I've given you my suggestions. Multiple times, and it's stated in the first page. Please explain what I've "misunderstood," about your points. Because this is the first time in the conversation we've been having that you have made this claim. And you keep claiming that this "near-death experience," will lead to more inconsistencies but have not once actually given an example of an inconsistency that could lead to, you've just been claiming that it would. I would legitimately like to hear of one possible inconsistency this system I have proposed would produce, and what I have apparently misunderstood. Please clarify.
  12. Brett

    There is nothing "small" and nothing "complicated," about wanting to ensure that when someone is "dead." They are legitimately "dead." I don't know why you believe that this is going to result in a radical redefine of the entire server, when all it would do is make a definition between what makes them different. And from your own statement here, "We don't want PKs to be seen as 'near death experiences' instead of deaths, or else we wouldn't of killed that player." Maybe this is part of the problem lol. PK's don't actually kill anyone, as they simply respawn later. And if you don't want to put in actual RP work to try and legitimately kill someone, then that's on you, because maybe that's saying that you don't really have good reasons to just go around PKing everyone to begin with just so you can get the rush of supposedly "killing," someone. We're emulating real life, and this won't stop you from roleplaying npr will this impose unreasonable burdens. This suggestion doesn't get rid of PK's, it simply redefines them from murders to near death experiences. And for some reason you really have an issue with this, simply because I believe you just like the idea that you can "kill," a player and not receive really any legitimate consequences or go through legitimately the hard work that actually goes into bringing about the death of someone. Killing isn't as easy as people in this game seem to like it to be. Nobody really roleplays the psychological effects of a shooting, whether they are the shooter doing it, or a bystander who happened to witness it. Nobody really roleplays all the trauma this stuff really causes, or the effects it would realistically have. This is why you end up with situations where you got people claiming that they're putting people to death left and right, because they can basically stack PK's on their criminal records and claim all those are "deaths." Then you end up with people with like 20x Murder charges, still walking around Los Santos like they're hard because they could PK someone. This game emulates real life, and to basically accept that a "death," in the form of a PK is a legitimate "death," of that player even though they can respawn and walk around etc is real life (A claim someone else has pushed back on you about as well), isn't in the slightest emulating real life, nor even the basic rules of-....well anything. You know how you have fun on a roleplay server? You roleplay. You wanna act like you're this tuff murderer on the streets who put anyone who steps to you in the ground, do it. But you should also be prepared for some legitimately harsh consequences, because murder IRL and IG is no joke. And shouldn't be treated as a joke, simply because. "It's just for the funz bruh. Idc if it breaks immersion, let me get the PK."
  13. Brett

    How does the system "work," in it's current form if by your own admission when you PK people, you have to change your entire method of interacting just to have it make sense to yourself of how they're not living. Or responding to them with "very short answers." Why very short? Why not RP with them like you would RP with someone who wasn't PK'd? I think you know the answer, because it's the very problem this thread is addressing. You cannot hold the opinion that the current system is fine, yet also say that you have to limit RP and responses to them just to ensure this weird system works (Works as in, make sense). If the system works so well, you wouldn't have any need to castrate parts of your own RP around certain people because it OOCly makes you uncomfortable knowing that YOU pk'd someone (Who under these wonky rules, most likely isn't even allowed to recognize you since losing memory and all), and is making you change up your RP for something that shouldn't even have to be RP'd in that form at all. Just because something has been a way for a long time, doesn't mean it's worked, or should continue to exist. And I haven't seen this type of thread discussed before. I've seen threads about making PK's more frequent, or CK's more frequent. I've seen threads advocating abolishing PK's or CK's. I've seen threads about things related to CK's or PK's such as CK app suggestions, and what not. But never, have I seen a thread just advocating a formal defining of the PK and CK in an OOC sense so people can actually understand what the hell they mean from one standard rather then this double reality people just live in. Feel free to prove me wrong on that one, but I think you are thinking this thread is doing something, that it isn't.
  14. Brett

    That sentence alone, means that we're just not going to agree here. If a "dead," persons DNA is being cataloged while this person is not dead, then logically this person isn't a "dead person." If you don't see the contradiction in this, and why this poses problems, I'm afraid we're just not going to agree as you don't see this as an issue. Because the statement alone makes no sense on it's own two feet as how is a dead person, well-...not dead. And to your point of, "If you could suggest something which fixes the issues you've outlined without changing the dynamic of the entire game-mode, I'm all ears." I did lay out something that fixes my issues, that doesn't change the entire dynamic of the game mode. The game mode is roleplay. I haven't restricted you from being able to do drive bys, full out CK's, or even PK's. All I've done is advocate a standard of what actually a PK is on a server-wide level, to clear up an inconsistency. Without it being defined, the problem of two realities never gets solved. It's truly the only way you can solve it. And to this; Many would disagree, including some in this thread who have noted similar problems. But like i said, if you inherently believe that there is nothing wrong with a dead person not actually being dead, then we're just not going to see eye to eye on this.
  15. Brett

    @MikeTheMike And you just proved my point with this. So even though the "PKer," in this situation would be 100% icly liable for the crime from an IC standpoint and IC actions would occur in order to get him arrested, charged, and thrown in jail. And the PKer themselves would most likely be ICly boasting, and if they were with other friends celebrating this so-called crime they all just fully witnessed (As you can't just randomly kill people, as that would be DM so there has to be some IC connection as to why you PK'd this person). You're telling me that this person didn't actually commit a crime at all, and all events that I roleplayed previously before you showed up to kill my friend are just null and void. I'm sorry but this just makes no sense, in no world does this make sense. Why the hell should I void MY roleplay if I didn't get PK'd but my friend did? There is absolutely no rule, or any prohibition against me rolling up on your later to try and kill you had I not been killed, and you're trying to claim that the whole situation should just be forgotten. The only person who wins in this interaction is the PKer, while everyone else has to probably void large bits of their own roleplay and absolutely mindfuck themselves just to satisfy the PKer. Because under that logic, this is truly the only person who benefits from this so-called "RP," that you claim also never really happened in the first place. Really contradictory. Nobody is advocating to do this. All this suggestion does is define the difference between what a PK really is, compared to a CK. People can internally work out the IC justifications from these definitions of what happened in specific situations, but at least there is a defined default that makes sense that people have to start from. But it isn't working like that. If you kill someone right now in game, you WILL ICLY carry the brunt of murdering a SPECIFIC victim. So if the player is John Doe, the police will legit charge you with John Doe's murder. Which they will have all his IC data. The police aren't going like (Oh well he was PK'd, so change our casefile details to John Doe so when we arrest your character we act like you murdered some random NPC.) No, we're going to be naming the victim you killed and all the circumstances that lead to their death. Which for a PK, makes zero sense to be doing as this person still lives, And even if your gang agrees to one thing, everyone else on the server may be agreeing to another. Hence creating two entirely separate realities of a single event. If I witness someone kill another person in the game, I'm going to icly attach YOUR character that I saw murder someone to that particular crime in question. And RP future interactions with your character in that manner. Yet as you mentioned above, you wouldn't have done such a crime and your side agrees with these interpretations, yet I as a lone individual did not and am roleplaying different. One of us is powergaming by definition in this situation, and you can't like I have said previously say that both my character and your character are correct when holding such contradictory stances and asking for them to be OOCLy supported even if we had to get an admin. It's impossible. Again, this only legit works between the parties involved. It doesn't include anyonee who may have witnessed the incident but are not privied to the internal agreements. So even if Me and You if we were the parties involved in a PK situation worked out some agreement, 5 other people unconnected with our factions and whatever w ho also saw the shootout would not know of said agreement, nor could they, and would take other things out of it and RP accordingly. So if they want to RP that they saw ME die, and YOU be the murderer in a PK situation and try and report you in to the authorities or do something to you themselves, there is no OOC basis you can stop them or point to that disallows them from doing so. And even getting an admin for this situation won't help, because again this is undefined and people will be basically making up rules and stuff on the fly complicating matters more. They're not easily dealt with by switching to an NPC, because again. YOUR character the murderer, would have committed a murder, who's murdered victim would ICly be all over your case with associated DNA evidence of said victim to prove this person was murdered, yet they're still walking around all normally. Switching to an NPC, doesn't negate this simple reality. This is not at all, what the topic is advocating nor about. Nor would defining PK's and CK's have anything to do with this. This is a red herring. Again, red herring. Absolutely has no basis to this suggestion. PK's and CK's Defined or not. Cool, but it goes beyond the two players. It involves the players victim and murderer, any random bypassers who witness said events, any law enforcement personnel who investigate said incident, any EMT/Coroners who report medical data on the incident, any court personnel who charge the incident, etc. There's a reason I don't agree with the stance of "Well the two players will work it out." This goes far beyond even those two players, and you're not going to pm every witness of a situation to be like "Yo, we're rping this like x. Just want you updated." AKA: People will leave an incident with two realities and use those realities in the IC which again, are contradictory. I've been roleplaying on these platforms since 2013, I've been a criminal, law enforcement, done terrorism, swat breaches, some military RP, etc. I've been involved in numerous PK/CK situations more so then I could count, so I can assure you that my experience is in no way "limited." Having two different realities being lived because it's not defined, is not fine. The ONLY person who benefits from having a system like this is the person who tries to murder people just for the "lolz." Because like you said before, they never actually did it if they succeed. So by your own standard, whenever there is a PK everyone should simple ignore it because it didn't happen from your character. Or is the standard that it did happen, but nobody else is allowed to RP further with it but the murderer themselves? I'll repeat. This...makes...zero...sense. And honestly, if we're going to go as far as to say that PK's and CK's are equivalent in "murdered," status. Then what honestly is the difference between them? Why should anyone EVER go for CK's, if it's all going to be considered IC murder. That would make CK absolutely no different from a PK (Which is how it is currently.) If by killing you in a random drive-by or something is going to get me a First Degree Murder charge, the same as me filing a CK app and going through the motions to kill someone for a CK all end in the EXACT same IC consequences, then really what is the point? The reason I propose the defining the way I am, is for two. One, it actually resolves the Two Reality issue so everyone is on ONE coordinated playing field for how to handle these incidents. And two, it actually makes a FIRM distinction between what the REAL difference is between a PK and CK. Because honestly, if PK's are the same as CK's in the IC world. Then why have them separate? Why kick up such a stir about being so scared of a CK, but not scared of a PK? We all know why, it's because people are actually afraid of CK's. And tbh, you should be because just like IRL you're afraid of DYING because you only get 1 life and actually take precautions and stuff to try and keep it safe. A PK just allows you to laugh it off, not RP proper fear, and just get away with senseless violence (Not everyone does this, but in my experience it tends to be the majority), that honestly don't provide much true RP and usually are done with stupid reasons to begin with. But again, I'm not here to argue Pro CK or Pro PK. I'm just trying to explain to you that there is a reality we need to face about this being undefined, and why we should be advocating one universal standard and not have hundreds of people making up various realities about the same incident for it to make sense. It's mind boggling, and it needs to stop.