[Discussion] What can improve RP interactions between players and general RP standards?

[Tiresias]

@K0range4 @goonbagAPPEAL @smo have eloquently and fully explained everything wrong with the server from their point of view as illegal roleplayers. As someone intimately familiar with legal / governement / cop roleplay, the exact same disaster of inept administration has also plagued legal roleplay in general.
 

There will always be players whose roleplay is subpar due to either lack of skill or psychiatric issues (people obsessed with erp and ooc power brokering are in the latter category), but they are a minority. Management has simply not helped in compensating for this in any capacity.

 

The problem at the root of all this is that there actually isn't any management, the entire server knows that. "Management" must have a defined program, an activity that involves the rest of the server, have a recognizable structure, approach. There is nothing like that on GTAW.

The server instead put together weird discord groups of influential faction leaders or friends, and gave them names such as "LFM", "PM", "RPQM" (all three are essentially running legal rp on the server). They then arm them with basically unlimited authority and very little accountability to players. 

 

This mess is then dressed up with processes involving filing huge applications to lease a golf cart or a tiny office. And this huge bureaucracy is overseeing a niche of legal roleplay that is so small, you need a microscope to see it sitting between law enforcement rp and illegal rp.

What ends up happening is the systematic destruction of good "civilian" role play, and its replacement with formulaic, incomprehensible wrecks of factions and nightclubs.

 

The few administration-backed initiatives such as the LS City Government, Aurum, or the Senate tragically fail in the same manner. The people behind these projects stubbornly insist on roleplaying among themselves in GTAO heists meeting room interiors instead of going out of their way to, say, recruit noobs who would actually roleplay what their factions are supposed to be about.

Factions like the city government should rightfully be noob magnets and provide a change of scenery from the leisure-dominated legal roleplay, but nothing ever happens and the server's legal authorities would rather pontificate about U.S Supreme Court rulings instead.

 

Meanwhile, players who are actually interested in such roleplay are mercilessly exterminated.

People who wanted to set up a ragtag, low end ambulance company focusing on interacting with gang rpers were made to wait for months on end only to be forced to help PHMC set up their own internal ambulance service instead.

Some guy who wanted to roleplay a building inspector had his thread locked without any explanation at all, because he threatened SFM or something.

@Pascal, @L I C E, and I assume many others were essentially harassed by RPQM over nothing, most likely because he hurt someone's ego. Meanwhile, a cursory visit in any nightclub or trucking depot would provide with years of bad roleplay to help improve.

I myself was banned for roleplaying a gate guard and telling LFM to leave me alone.

 

 

In fact, this thread so far has been useless. Why is 1 random property management admin alone in answering the questions raised throughout the thread?

@Shanks is treating this thread exactly like he treats his inbox, we've been through this before. GTAW management refuses to wake up.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Tiresias

[fortieznshortiez]

3 hours ago, Tiresias said:

@K0range4 @goonbagAPPEAL @smo have eloquently and fully explained everything wrong with the server from their point of view as illegal roleplayers. As someone intimately familiar with legal / governement / cop roleplay, the exact same disaster of inept administration has also plagued legal roleplay in general.
 

There will always be players whose roleplay is subpar due to either lack of skill or psychiatric issues (people obsessed with erp and ooc power brokering are in the latter category), but they are a minority. Management has simply not helped in compensating for this in any capacity.

 

The problem at the root of all this is that there actually isn't any management, the entire server knows that. "Management" must have a defined program, an activity that involves the rest of the server, have a recognizable structure, approach. There is nothing like that on GTAW.

The server instead put together weird discord groups of influential faction leaders or friends, and gave them names such as "LFM", "PM", "RPQM" (all three are essentially running legal rp on the server). They then arm them with basically unlimited authority and very little accountability to players. 

 

This mess is then dressed up with processes involving filing huge applications to lease a golf cart or a tiny office. And this huge bureaucracy is overseeing a niche of legal roleplay that is so small, you need a microscope to see it sitting between law enforcement rp and illegal rp.

What ends up happening is the systematic destruction of good "civilian" role play, and its replacement with formulaic, incomprehensible wrecks of factions and nightclubs.

 

The few administration-backed initiatives such as the LS City Government, Aurum, or the Senate tragically fail in the same manner. The people behind these projects stubbornly insist on roleplaying among themselves in GTAO heists meeting room interiors instead of going out of their way to, say, recruit noobs who would actually roleplay what their factions are supposed to be about.

Factions like the city government should rightfully be noob magnets and provide a change of scenery from the leisure-dominated legal roleplay, but nothing ever happens and the server's legal authorities would rather pontificate about U.S Supreme Court rulings instead.

 

Meanwhile, players who are actually interested in such roleplay are mercilessly exterminated.

People who wanted to set up a ragtag, low end ambulance company focusing on interacting with gang rpers were made to wait for months on end only to be forced to help PHMC set up their own internal ambulance service instead.

Some guy who wanted to roleplay a building inspector had his thread locked without any explanation at all, because he threatened SFM or something.

@Pascal, @L I C E, and I assume many others were essentially harassed by RPQM over nothing, most likely because he hurt someone's ego. Meanwhile, a cursory visit in any nightclub or trucking depot would provide with years of bad roleplay to help improve.

I myself was banned for roleplaying a gate guard and telling LFM to leave me alone.

 

 

In fact, this thread so far has been useless. Why is 1 random property management admin alone in answering the questions raised throughout the thread?

@Shanks is treating this thread exactly like he treats his inbox, we've been through this before. GTAW management refuses to wake up.

well said (ps im a legal rper not an illegal rper)

[Wuhtah]

4 hours ago, Tiresias said:

@K0range4 @goonbagAPPEAL @smo have eloquently and fully explained everything wrong with the server from their point of view as illegal roleplayers. As someone intimately familiar with legal / governement / cop roleplay, the exact same disaster of inept administration has also plagued legal roleplay in general.
 

There will always be players whose roleplay is subpar due to either lack of skill or psychiatric issues (people obsessed with erp and ooc power brokering are in the latter category), but they are a minority. Management has simply not helped in compensating for this in any capacity.

 

The problem at the root of all this is that there actually isn't any management, the entire server knows that. "Management" must have a defined program, an activity that involves the rest of the server, have a recognizable structure, approach. There is nothing like that on GTAW.

The server instead put together weird discord groups of influential faction leaders or friends, and gave them names such as "LFM", "PM", "RPQM" (all three are essentially running legal rp on the server). They then arm them with basically unlimited authority and very little accountability to players. 

 

This mess is then dressed up with processes involving filing huge applications to lease a golf cart or a tiny office. And this huge bureaucracy is overseeing a niche of legal roleplay that is so small, you need a microscope to see it sitting between law enforcement rp and illegal rp.

What ends up happening is the systematic destruction of good "civilian" role play, and its replacement with formulaic, incomprehensible wrecks of factions and nightclubs.

 

The few administration-backed initiatives such as the LS City Government, Aurum, or the Senate tragically fail in the same manner. The people behind these projects stubbornly insist on roleplaying among themselves in GTAO heists meeting room interiors instead of going out of their way to, say, recruit noobs who would actually roleplay what their factions are supposed to be about.

Factions like the city government should rightfully be noob magnets and provide a change of scenery from the leisure-dominated legal roleplay, but nothing ever happens and the server's legal authorities would rather pontificate about U.S Supreme Court rulings instead.

 

Meanwhile, players who are actually interested in such roleplay are mercilessly exterminated.

People who wanted to set up a ragtag, low end ambulance company focusing on interacting with gang rpers were made to wait for months on end only to be forced to help PHMC set up their own internal ambulance service instead.

Some guy who wanted to roleplay a building inspector had his thread locked without any explanation at all, because he threatened SFM or something.

@Pascal, @L I C E, and I assume many others were essentially harassed by RPQM over nothing, most likely because he hurt someone's ego. Meanwhile, a cursory visit in any nightclub or trucking depot would provide with years of bad roleplay to help improve.

I myself was banned for roleplaying a gate guard and telling LFM to leave me alone.

 

 

In fact, this thread so far has been useless. Why is 1 random property management admin alone in answering the questions raised throughout the thread?

@Shanks is treating this thread exactly like he treats his inbox, we've been through this before. GTAW management refuses to wake up.

 

I am unsure of when the last time you requested a leased vehicle or a property. But it legit takes two sentences for a vehicle lease if it's a golf cart or a lawn mower lol. I should know. It'll usually be accepted unless it legit just doesn't make sense.

 

The "long application" to lease a tiny office consists of.. 4? 5? Questions that are pretty basic and most likely will get you accepted even if it's not 500 pages long like your insinuating. If it's 4-5 sentences each (which I promise is actually not a lot) that is fine for a lease office.

 

The requests that do require long apps? Houses and special vehicle cars. You know, those cars that people request that they probably shouldn't request because it doesn't make any sense to their characters, but they really like it OOC? Yeah... Those types of requests need to be a bit longer. 

 

I'm sorry that you feel a certain way, unheard, frustrated, whatever - but your attitude doesn't help to be quite frank with you. Tagging management - isn't really the way to go either. 

 

There's 3 people in management, 4 if you include Nervous. You think they will have time for 600-800 players on a daily basis? No, lol. No one would. That's WHY the subteams were created. LFM is the main handler of legal factions. If those factions need properties, LFM comes to PM. If there are characters in factions that are unrealistic, as you have given some examples in your own post, they bring in RPQM.

 

Relying on each other is how it's supposed to be. If one administrator did EVERYTHING? They wouldn't last very long and the wait times (that are long already) would be twice as long.

 

I understand you are trying to get managements viewpoint or attention, but this is not the way to go about it, respectively. I also do feel like this thread hasn't been useless from a staff members point of view, but eh, tit for tat.

 

I believe it's better to have a staff members POV and SOME clarification from at least a "random PM admin" than anyone at all, but correct me if I'm wrong. Also, it IS being addressed through management. Yes, they are just words you are reading on a screen, it doesn't mean shit to you. But take a deep breath, it'll get there.

[Cleveland]

21 minutes ago, Wuhtah said:

I am unsure of when the last time you requested a leased vehicle or a property. But it legit takes two sentences for a vehicle lease if it's a golf cart or a lawn mower lol. I should know. It'll usually be accepted unless it legit just doesn't make sense.

 

The fact that people have to write two sentences and meet up with an admin instead of just getting IG and buying a golf cart or a lawn mower from a car dealership is evidence of how completely skewed the staff logic is. If it usually is accepted, then why do people need to waste time that would be better spent actually using those assets rather than filing a request for things they can't possibly harm the server with, even if they wanted to? What's the danger of allowing someone to just walk into a store and buy themselves a golf cart?

 

26 minutes ago, Wuhtah said:

I'm sorry that you feel a certain way, unheard, frustrated, whatever - but your attitude doesn't help to be quite frank with you. Tagging management - isn't really the way to go either. 

 

And what's the way to go? You send them PMs, they ignore you at worst and give you two-words answers at best, without giving you any direction as what to do next despite that being their main role. You try to have a polite confrontation on Discord, they resort to blocking you and banning you from the server without even providing you with an actual answer. Please do enlighten @Tiresias and myself as to what the best way to get in touch with management is, because all the avenues we've pursued while we were still playing, those that were outlined in the respective topics, concluded with a server ban over something so trivial it didn't even warrant administrative action at all.

 

30 minutes ago, Wuhtah said:

There's 3 people in management, 4 if you include Nervous. You think they will have time for 600-800 players on a daily basis? No, lol. No one would.

 

No one expects management to run the show themselves, but since you are all so fond of throwing around words such as "quality", "standards" and so on, they should at least be able to enforce their supposed standards on those respective sub-teams. If the leader of IFM is a crooked rogue admin who has a habit of helping their friends' factions gain the upper hand through OOC methods, the manager responsible for FM as a whole should act on it and remove them. If the manager responsible for FM doesn't, then the founder should. But here the word accountability has no meaning.

 

The server culture flows downstream from those who run it, and they managed to ingrain some concepts that would've been laughed at just 5 years ago because completely outside of the realm of common sense (i.e. the ruling allowing criminals to rob people in broad daylight in the middle of L.S.' main square because of "realism", "standards" and some other buzzwords) deep into the community: you know a server culture has been irredeemably corrupted when players are asking everyday for new rules, more regulations, additional gatekeeping while the situation has barely changed if you compare it to 2, 3 or 4 years ago. In fact, in some areas it has seen a significant worsening, despite thirty layers of bureaucracy being added to every aspect and less and less freedom being awarded to the players since then.

 

The more staff supervision there is, the higher is the chance for an admin to go rogue and start favoring their OOC friends instead of ensuring a level playing field for everyone alike. This is Management 101.

 

52 minutes ago, Wuhtah said:

Relying on each other is how it's supposed to be.

 

Yes, it's how supposed to be, but it's not like that when a bunch of cliques controls access to certain areas of roleplay, sabotaging whoever doesn't align with their views and driving away or forcing the conversion of those who don't conform to their "quality" level through a combination of social pressure, administrative action and selectively enforced double standards. What's worse is that it's easy for them to get far into staff teams because they have no true conviction besides attaining more power and shaping the server according to their own egotistical desires. Meanwhile the only person who could stop this running joke, the founder, clearly doesn't even know what he wants the server to be, aside from a vague indication of "heavy text-based roleplay" (which could mean everything).

 

It might sound like pure conspiracy theory material if it wasn't for the fact that it happened right in front of your eyes and you all simply chose to ignore it. Do you really believe the expansion of LSSD from a "jail only faction" to a massive LEO agency with stations across the whole map is the result of the "quality police roleplay" the faction provides rather than the fact that basically their entire leadership was part of FM right when that expansion happened? Do you really believe that SAPR would've been a thing if it had been proposed by a regular player rather than by a lead admin? Do you really believe that SAAA would've been allowed to exist if it wasn't for the fact that the lead developer holds a stake in it? And I'm limiting myself to legal factions because, like my partner in crime, they've been my bread and butter for years at this point, though @goonbagAPPEAL insight in the illegal faction scene proves they're not faring much better.

 

47 minutes ago, Wuhtah said:

I believe it's better to have a staff members POV and SOME clarification from at least a "random PM admin" than anyone at all, but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

If you're doing it out of genuine care for the server and not because you have other OOC goals hiding behind a façade of politeness and understanding, as many other staff members "working for the betterment of the server" have done in the past, then your dedication to the server is commendable, but completely undeserved by those who you're currently trying to cover for.

 

What @Tiresias meant to say, and he was without doubt echoing a pretty popular sentiment in this section, is that the problems that are being brought up here need an answer for someone who is, to quote some of your colleagues, "above your paygrade". But, like he said, they refuse to accept that management comes with as many responsibilities as privileges.

 

Now if you'll excuse us, @Tiresias and I need to go research the NYC steam system.

 

[JayO]

3 hours ago, smo said:

well said (ps im a legal rper not an illegal rper)

 

Speaking as a faction leader of Aurum, I don't know why you brought us into that same bracket. We have said time and time again that people require absolutely zero experience to join us and they get training from myself (someone that actually works in the industry IRL). I don't think you realize just how hard we are finding it to actually keep people in the faction and interested at the same time. It's a niche area of RP and one people lose interest in, which unfortunately is the case for passive RP as a whole. 

 

We had to apply for the faction and justify it to administration just like anyone else and in no way have any advantages compared to others. Would I like a big faction with lots of interested people? absolutely. Will that happen? probably not because blue collar RP isn't enticing enough. 

 

You'll find that we sit in our office and keep the RP between us because that's the only way we can get paid, through /startshift. We have no income, very little people wanting to pay bills for energy, and thus we are extremely restricted to where we RP. That is either our office, refinery or oil field. Anywhere else and we're RPing without making money. Unfortunately the vast majority of people here are money driven and will not spend the time RPing without getting something for it. I'd love if this weren't the case, but it isn't. You can earn more working in a 24/7 than doing RP in Aurum and that's the sad reality of things. 

 

I'd love nothing more than to have a million noobs join and take up the training and interest in what we do. It's real knowledge and experience I provide to people so that they have some what of an understanding. That enables people to RP in a way that makes sense. Do I like detail? yeah I do because it's my job IRL but I don't expect people to RP the knowledge and depth that I can in this area. 

[Wuhtah]

1 hour ago, Cleveland said:

The fact that people have to write two sentences and meet up with an admin instead of just getting IG and buying a golf cart or a lawn mower from a car dealership is evidence of how completely skewed the staff logic is. If it usually is accepted, then why do people need to waste time that would be better spent actually using those assets rather than filing a request for things they can't possibly harm the server with, even if they wanted to? What's the danger of allowing someone to just walk into a store and buy themselves a golf cart?

 

It seems like you wanted to end the conversation, however, I would like to continue it a little bit in some areas if you don't mind. For this specific instance - I have been working towards this. It takes time, changes take time. Let me give you an outline:

- Before I was in PM: Requests never opened up, or opened up once in a blue moon.

- During my time in PM: Requests started opening up on a calendar-based basis.

- During my time as a PM lead: Vehicle requests now remain forever open to help combat the annoyance of waiting for a simple vehicle like a lawnmower or golf cart. During this time, I see who requests the lawnmowers, golf carts, or other vehicles that are under the 'can be used to troll' category. As of my statistics in the last month, only a couple people requested for these that should NOT have them (whether they are 20 years old and have a million in vehicle assets, or they legit don't have a lawn to mow lol.) This is pretty low to me, so I am working on pushing having these types of vehicles implemented in car dealerships. This final decision is not up to me - as I'm not management and never intend to be. However, I can work TOWARDS that and give the statistics, suggestions, solutions TO management in order to maintain something like this. 

 

I'm not trying to gatekeep, but you know the whole saying or whatever - one person can ruin something for a lot of people. Yes, we can ban that player - sure. We are working towards that. But right now, I'm in the stage of figuring things out still and trying to make it less gate-keepy as I possible can for someone in my position. Vehicle requests used to open once a month, now they are open all the time. I truly hope you see the progress/change (however small) towards a better direction where perhaps some of these vehicles CAN be in the dealerships. It truly doesn't take that much time either - 10 minutes max. You guys RP for 5-10 hours a day, I think 10 minutes is fine for now.

 

Quote

And what's the way to go? You send them PMs, they ignore you at worst and give you two-words answers at best, without giving you any direction as what to do next despite that being their main role. You try to have a polite confrontation on Discord, they resort to blocking you and banning you from the server without even providing you with an actual answer. Please do enlighten @Tiresias and myself as to what the best way to get in touch with management is, because all the avenues we've pursued while we were still playing, those that were outlined in the respective topics, concluded with a server ban over something so trivial it didn't even warrant administrative action at all.

 

Honestly? You make a solid point here. I can't control other people's actions, and I'm truly sorry that you're going through that and others are too. I'm not going to make up excuses or reasons for those who do this. I can't and I won't. I do know that when my discord goes unanswered, I push for people to spam me because I get 50-100 messages on discord daily. I open them, I go to respond, I get pulled away - I forget to respond. I encourage people to forum PM me (I know for a fact you guys hate forum PMing) but this is because I have a discord to keep track and hardly any forum PM goes unanswered for it. Sometimes they do - I'm a flawed individual. 

 

So, in this way... Let me TRY to help/give advice. We are not required to answer discord messages. We ARE required to answer forum messages, as per admin handbook. You have to follow the chain of command. Management and then Nervous as last resorts. If you have an issue with PM - You go to the the 'lead' of that subteam. If it's to do with houses, you go to Lomadias. If you don't like how that ends up, you move up the chain of command which would be Selena as she's the assistant head of PM. If you don't like this or you've been treated unfairly, then Frezemis who is also management and an orange name. Same goes for IFM, LFM, RPQM. 

 

During this time? You HAVE to be respectful or legit you will get no where. Your frustrations? Hold them back. Reading this entire post, I felt your frustrations. Some admins will just brush you off. Make it so you have control of the situation. If management doesn't help, blows you off, etc, REMAIN RESPECTFUL (and I know it's hard to remain respectful sometimes). Ping the forum DM once a week; if it's not handled in a month - go to management; no management go to Nervous. If at the end of that, no one responds, then I don't know what else to say. 

 

Quote

No one expects management to run the show themselves, but since you are all so fond of throwing around words such as "quality", "standards" and so on, they should at least be able to enforce their supposed standards on those respective sub-teams. If the leader of IFM is a crooked rogue admin who has a habit of helping their friends' factions gain the upper hand through OOC methods, the manager responsible for FM as a whole should act on it and remove them. If the manager responsible for FM doesn't, then the founder should. But here the word accountability has no meaning.

 

The server culture flows downstream from those who run it, and they managed to ingrain some concepts that would've been laughed at just 5 years ago because completely outside of the realm of common sense (i.e. the ruling allowing criminals to rob people in broad daylight in the middle of L.S.' main square because of "realism", "standards" and some other buzzwords) deep into the community: you know a server culture has been irredeemably corrupted when players are asking everyday for new rules, more regulations, additional gatekeeping while the situation has barely changed if you compare it to 2, 3 or 4 years ago. In fact, in some areas it has seen a significant worsening, despite thirty layers of bureaucracy being added to every aspect and less and less freedom being awarded to the players since then.

 

The more staff supervision there is, the higher is the chance for an admin to go rogue and start favoring their OOC friends instead of ensuring a level playing field for everyone alike. This is Management 101.

 

I agree, management AND the entire staff team should enforce all standards within the sub teams. If you have evidence of any of this - send them to the respective sub team leaders. IF it's the sub team leaders doing it, send it to management. If management is doing it - send it to Nervous. You need cold hard proof. You can't just go base of mouth off of these allegations. I'm not saying you're lying, I'm not saying you're wrong, I am not saying you are right. But what you DO need? Is proof. That's not me being a bitch or trying to belittle you at all. That's just how it is.

 

I do agree that some of the rules being placed down are a bit of a headache to deal as a staff member. There are a few threads opened about some of the rules that I am compiling a list together to talk within the staff meeting and bring to management. If you want to forum PM me some points as well, I've had tons of players do this and I am grateful for it. 

 

Quote

If you're doing it out of genuine care for the server and not because you have other OOC goals hiding behind a façade of politeness and understanding, as many other staff members "working for the betterment of the server" have done in the past, then your dedication to the server is commendable, but completely undeserved by those who you're currently trying to cover for.

 

What @Tiresias meant to say, and he was without doubt echoing a pretty popular sentiment in this section, is that the problems that are being brought up here need an answer for someone who is, to quote some of your colleagues, "above your paygrade". But, like he said, they refuse to accept that management comes with as many responsibilities as privileges.

 

You have raised a lot of good points and a lot of things that need clarification from management themselves. I am hoping that in the next few weeks - you guys will get that. I have no "OOC goals" hiding behind anything. If that's what you want to think, that's honestly acceptable. Those who have been in situations where they FEEL that way cannot get their minds changed by words - only actions. 

 

I'm not interested at ALL in moving up the ladder. I'm interested in helping the staff team and the server improve. There are tons of posts saying the 'good old days'. This might not ever be 100% obtainable, but if we can clean it up a bit slowly and go in the right direction, that's an achievement for me. 

 

Is it a long shot? Maybe. But I'll try until I get the brown retired name. 

 

If you do want to continue this discussion, we can do so on this thread. It's a bit of a derailment, but you raised a lot of good and VERY controversial points. Borderline to where I probably should have locked the thread. So moving forward, let's tone down the bashing a tiny bit and if there are specific things you want me to bring up - I will. I would just prefer to be forum PM'd about it so it's easier to keep track. 

 

Thanks for replying even though it was pretty blunt. That's how we improve. I was told management do read these threads, however, going through 15-20 pages per thread with some not even offering feedback and derailing with random BS does impede them which is why I will give them highlights per thread. 

[fortieznshortiez]

59 minutes ago, JayO said:

 

Speaking as a faction leader of Aurum, I don't know why you brought us into that same bracket. We have said time and time again that people require absolutely zero experience to join us and they get training from myself (someone that actually works in the industry IRL). I don't think you realize just how hard we are finding it to actually keep people in the faction and interested at the same time. It's a niche area of RP and one people lose interest in, which unfortunately is the case for passive RP as a whole. 

 

We had to apply for the faction and justify it to administration just like anyone else and in no way have any advantages compared to others. Would I like a big faction with lots of interested people? absolutely. Will that happen? probably not because blue collar RP isn't enticing enough. 

 

You'll find that we sit in our office and keep the RP between us because that's the only way we can get paid, through /startshift. We have no income, very little people wanting to pay bills for energy, and thus we are extremely restricted to where we RP. That is either our office, refinery or oil field. Anywhere else and we're RPing without making money. Unfortunately the vast majority of people here are money driven and will not spend the time RPing without getting something for it. I'd love if this weren't the case, but it isn't. You can earn more working in a 24/7 than doing RP in Aurum and that's the sad reality of things. 

 

I'd love nothing more than to have a million noobs join and take up the training and interest in what we do. It's real knowledge and experience I provide to people so that they have some what of an understanding. That enables people to RP in a way that makes sense. Do I like detail? yeah I do because it's my job IRL but I don't expect people to RP the knowledge and depth that I can in this area. 

u quoted the wrong person

[Engelbert]

4 hours ago, Wuhtah said:

 

I am unsure of when the last time you requested a leased vehicle or a property. But it legit takes two sentences for a vehicle lease if it's a golf cart or a lawn mower lol. I should know. It'll usually be accepted unless it legit just doesn't make sense.

 

The "long application" to lease a tiny office consists of.. 4? 5? Questions that are pretty basic and most likely will get you accepted even if it's not 500 pages long like your insinuating. If it's 4-5 sentences each (which I promise is actually not a lot) that is fine for a lease office.

 

The requests that do require long apps? Houses and special vehicle cars. You know, those cars that people request that they probably shouldn't request because it doesn't make any sense to their characters, but they really like it OOC? Yeah... Those types of requests need to be a bit longer. 

 

I'm sorry that you feel a certain way, unheard, frustrated, whatever - but your attitude doesn't help to be quite frank with you. Tagging management - isn't really the way to go either. 

 

There's 3 people in management, 4 if you include Nervous. You think they will have time for 600-800 players on a daily basis? No, lol. No one would. That's WHY the subteams were created. LFM is the main handler of legal factions. If those factions need properties, LFM comes to PM. If there are characters in factions that are unrealistic, as you have given some examples in your own post, they bring in RPQM.

 

Relying on each other is how it's supposed to be. If one administrator did EVERYTHING? They wouldn't last very long and the wait times (that are long already) would be twice as long.

 

I understand you are trying to get managements viewpoint or attention, but this is not the way to go about it, respectively. I also do feel like this thread hasn't been useless from a staff members point of view, but eh, tit for tat.

 

I believe it's better to have a staff members POV and SOME clarification from at least a "random PM admin" than anyone at all, but correct me if I'm wrong. Also, it IS being addressed through management. Yes, they are just words you are reading on a screen, it doesn't mean shit to you. But take a deep breath, it'll get there.

I am gonna drop this thought here, cause it's been bothering me for a while now. Regarding the car requests, what logical reasoning could possibly lead to "Why should they have this or that car?" Like why people want cars in real life? Why someone buys a Lamborghini Aventador for example? Because they like it. That's really the only reason, here comes the OOC taste to play, because simply how do you make your own character like a certain car? I will back this up by actual real life experience from my own neck of the woods, where a man found sudden success by a lucky shot at stock market. First thing he did, was to buy Audi R8, when his friends asked Why? He said "Why not? I had money for it and I wanted it." The only justification for said vehicle choice should be, if they can afford it. Because in 21st century you can see lot more people buying cars of expensive brands than before. Digital entertainment is at it's peak, or was. Digital currency was at it's peak and people who could, grabbed that chance and bought a Lamborghini for their bitcoin reserves. Not saying everyone should apply for Progen T20, but why should they have it, is kind of a silly question for me.

 

Now on topic. First gate people have to pass on their journey to enjoy the server. Is application, they are literally asked to read the rules and explain them in their own words. How come people who passed the application end up on report, sometimes the very same day they create their character, saying they didn't know, when they are asked to read the rules?

Edited July 7, 2022 by Engelbert

[JayO]

1 hour ago, smo said:

u quoted the wrong person

;-; my bad

[Wuhtah]

49 minutes ago, Engelbert said:

I am gonna drop this thought here, cause it's been bothering me for a while now. Regarding the car requests, what logical reasoning could possibly lead to "Why should they have this or that car?" Like why people want cars in real life? Why someone buys a Lamborghini Aventador for example? Because they like it. That's really the only reason, here comes the OOC taste to play, because simply how do you make your own character like a certain car? I will back this up by actual real life experience from my own neck of the woods, where a man found sudden success by a lucky shot at stock market. First thing he did, was to buy Audi R8, when his friends asked Why? He said "Why not? I had money for it and I wanted it." The only justification for said vehicle choice should be, if they can afford it. Because in 21st century you can see lot more people buying cars of expensive brands than before. Digital entertainment is at it's peak, or was. Digital currency was at it's peak and people who could, grabbed that chance and bought a Lamborghini for their bitcoin reserves. Not saying everyone should apply for Progen T20, but why should they have it, is kind of a silly question for me.

 

Now on topic. First gate people have to pass on their journey to enjoy the server. Is application, they are literally asked to read the rules and explain them in their own words. How come people who passed the application end up on report, sometimes the very same day they create their character, saying they didn't know, when they are asked to read the rules?

 

Very good question! The lease questions (the 2 on vehicles) were actually created before I was in PM. So, I basically tell players "Why should they have this" - treat it as justifying it financially and what not. Usually it's the player behind the screen wanting the car and not the actual character as it wouldn't make sense on it. This question can definitely be worded better, so I'll put in a request for the UCP devs to do that. 

 

You are absolutely right. A 30 year old having a midlife crisis might go in debt to get some... expensive car. He doesn't need to justify why - he just needs to show the cash. With this, it's muddled a bit with GTAW because "OOC money" is a huge thing, it's not always IC gained. 

 

I hope that explains it a bit. Let me know if it doesn't. 

 

As for your second point - not every single rule is covered in every single situation. Realistically - the main 2 rules that have been broke time and time again are deathmatching and powergaming. Deathmatching can be a grey area - people who really do think that it was justified, will get reasoned with and shown - it can't be justified. There's not really a white or black shade with this. Powergaming is a bit more white or black - it's pretty obviously. IF someone broke a powergaming rule and goes to me "Well I didn't know that was against the rules" - I'm not going to take that answer. I know for a fact they should know better. But for a different rule that isn't explicitly stated or even done - I will go a little more laxed unless it's not the first time they've broken the rules.