Adding debit & credit cards with the future money update

[EffPee]

27 minutes ago, DasFroggy said:

He brings up good points that ultimately reveal why this system is unlikely to work, namely the biggest flaw - crimegrinders. There is still an evident lack of self-control in the criminal community, in which crimegrinders are left unpunished by their peers for aiming purely for meta as opposed to roleplay. 

 

So we are back to implementing the 5k robbery limit already? If so, that is fair. Anything more however....

The problems already seen to be explained quite well here, and the proposed solutions would be easier to achieve by simply reinstating the 5k limit, as that is what you yourself are proposing in a more convoluted form, in such a way that will either be refused by the criminal community (if the limit applies to only theft) or by both communities (if it is a hard transaction limit, this defeating the purpose of having a card for "safe" transactions).

 

Assuming they do not use it as an excuse to gun you down for non-compliance then and there. This is a massive wrench in the works of the proposal, as there can be no fair means of introducing a debit card system if theft is possible, without crippling the use of a debit card. Meta driven crimegrinders will always find a way around, and as evident now with the 5k limit being gone, they will always complain until a restriction is lifted to allow them more access to the gains of others.

 

And here is why...

 

 

For criminals only? 

- Crimegrinders will deem it the 5k limit renewed, and we will be back here on the forums arguing why the 5k limit is again needing to be removed, quite possibly with the animosity of said crimegrinders now accusing the administration of pulling a fast one.

 

For both sides?

- Unless there is some location where civilians can withdraw more than the limit, you have now restricted everyone's daily expenses to just that limit. Once it is exceeded, the card is declined, and they cannot pay for a tow truck or hospital fees, leaving them stranded.

 

If there IS a location where they can withdraw more, not only is the debit card system again made meaningless by the need for cash, crimegrinders now need only to repeat the above scenario where one keeps the victim hostage, while the other withdraws everything from the victim's account. 

 

"But what if that one place is the bank, which would stop the withdrawal?" Refer to the above section "For criminals only?"

 

Already we are looking at a missing wing on this flight model of a proposition, and a cumbersome load of additional new rules needed to be considered. That is not good for a proposal. When you can come back with a more conclusive proposal that cannot be outpaced and outdone by visiting the updates list with the backspace button, please do. 

 

So now that criminals are at a disadvantage it's okay? You guys are very out-spoken on robberies and how they're terrible and the bane of your existence on the server, this and that. But now that the money update will leave criminals at a severe disadvantage that may very well encourage them to stop roleplaying robberies sufficiently, as they are not expecting to get any actual money out of it; why is that suddenly okay for you?

 

A proposal is just that, a proposal. I don't presume to know all the caveats that come with such a suggestion, I merely wanted to see other peoples thoughts and how the community would feel about it.

 

I would think those that disagree with robbery roleplay would love to have the 5k limit back, who would want even more money taken off of them by a poor criminal roleplayer?

 

I'm not sure you realised but withdrawal limits exist in real life, you can't just take 200k out of your local ATM. That's a simple system that I think anyone could get behind, go to the bank if you want to make such a large withdrawal. 

 

You're using the label 'crimegrinders' but we all know what you really mean, but I appreciate you not trying to derail. Crimegrinders primarily exist because the economy on the illegal side of things is awful, people wouldn't have to rely on chain-robberies for an income if there were more ways to profit in the illegal community; however this is for another discussion that has been had dozens of times on the forums. 

 

This new cash money system essentially encourages people to walk around with smaller amounts of money, and I am fairly certain people will walk around with double digits, in this servers economy that equates to a single digit number. There is NO reason for people to do robberies at that point, unless of course they're looking for PF guns. I can't roleplay the motivations behind robbing people if I know no one has any money on them.

[DasFroggy]

2 minutes ago, EffPee said:

So now that criminals are at a disadvantage it's okay?

So now lifting the 5k robbery limit is putting criminals at a disadvantage? If that is the case, you are more than free to close the pythos. 

 

I personally enjoyed robbery roleplay, when there was actual quality to it. I regularly carried fifty thousand dollars to voluntarily hand over if the robbery was an enjoyable experience that didn't consist of crimeginder meta madness.

 

My issue was never with robbery roleplay. My issue was with poor quality criminal roleplay.

7 minutes ago, EffPee said:

You're using the label 'crimegrinders' but we all know what you really mean, but I appreciate you not trying to derail. Crimegrinders primarily exist because the economy on the illegal side of things is awful, people wouldn't have to rely on chain-robberies for an income if there were more ways to profit in the illegal community

As mentioned above, this is something I have been personally trying to fix by keeping on hand a reward for criminals that demonstrate more roleplay than just *"/b showitems in three, or I shoot you, two... one.."

 

But now I can no longer do that. If it is on my person, the first people to get it, will be the crimegrinders.

 

10 minutes ago, EffPee said:

This new cash money system essentially encourages people to walk around with smaller amounts of money, and I am fairly certain people will walk around with double digits, in this servers economy that equates to a single digit number.

I will be one of them, and honestly the more that is voiced against this new cash money system, the more I am understanding why the administration has agreed to implement it. It is effectively killing the crimegrinder meta plays and encouraging more participation in the other aspects of crime, and dare I say... may even push criminals to consider having dayjobs to pay for their necessities with crime to make up for what they cannot afford.

 

Make no mistake, there were people here, completely willing to help the criminal community and reward good roleplay. Criminals and their peers didn't want that, and instead argued for everything.

 

Well, the pythos is open now. Here is your chance to close it, Pandora.

[EffPee]

3 minutes ago, DasFroggy said:

So now lifting the 5k robbery limit is putting criminals at a disadvantage? If that is the case, you are more than free to close the pythos. 

 

I personally enjoyed robbery roleplay, when there was actual quality to it. I regularly carried fifty thousand dollars to voluntarily hand over if the robbery was an enjoyable experience that didn't consist of crimeginder meta madness.

 

My issue was never with robbery roleplay. My issue was with poor quality criminal roleplay.

As mentioned above, this is something I have been personally trying to fix by keeping on hand a reward for criminals that demonstrate more roleplay than just *"/b showitems in three, or I shoot you, two... one.."

 

But now I can no longer do that. If it is on my person, the first people to get it, will be the crimegrinders.

 

I will be one of them, and honestly the more that is voiced against this new cash money system, the more I am understanding why the administration has agreed to implement it. It is effectively killing the crimegrinder meta plays and encouraging more participation in the other aspects of crime, and dare I say... may even push criminals to consider having dayjobs to pay for their necessities with crime to make up for what they cannot afford.

 

Make no mistake, there were people here, completely willing to help the criminal community and reward good roleplay. Criminals and their peers didn't want that, and instead argued for everything.

 

Well, the pythos is open now. Here is your chance to close it, Pandora.

I'd really prefer if you stop using these over-the-top analogies or whatever you want to call them, I don't know what a pythos is.

 

Plenty criminal roleplayers have a dayjob to supplement their income, I'm one of them. The point is, by telling criminals to 'get a job' because actual crime doesn't pay is detrimental to the whole motivation behind being a criminal. We can't accept that there's no motivation to be a criminal just because the economy is fucked, at this point we have to fake our motivations because 'just getting a job' that pays 4k an hour will keep us going perfectly.

 

I pretty much rely on my 500 an hour unemployment check as passive income, I work at the barbershop and get paid no more than 400 dollars in a 2 hour shift. Here you might say 'but your character is broke, isn't that normal?' Yes, I guess it is. That's why he feels the need to do crime, to get MORE money that he can live on. He's not in the mafia, he's not organised; he's a gang member that can barely make a drug sale because the drug market is saturated, so where does that leave me? I have to do robberies to make money, there's my motivation. I go to rob someone after this update, they have no cash on them and they have a phone that I can't do anything with because it's rendered useless as soon as I obtain it. What's the point? I've just held someone up with no reward, this isn't going to be a rare occurrence, it will happen consistently because civilian roleplayers HATE getting robbed so much that they won't carry any money on them. This is part of the reason I'm proposing debit cards, I can at least take those, scramble to a store and buy some clothes or electronics to then sell off and make a profit. 

 

I can only assume you're not suggesting I do poor robbery roleplay, as you don't know me. But why should a whole community as a whole suffer because of a few bad eggs? (Yes, it's a big batch of bad eggs but its still not the majority). Crimegrinders is a ridiculous term, crime in its essence IS a grind; aiming for rewards OOC translates into aiming for rewards IC, the poor quality roleplay you see has nothing to do with that. 

 

Though, as I have said time and time again in the 16 hours this suggestion has been up, please think of the possibilities that don't involve robberies, take robberies out of your mind for the time being and think about the roleplay opportunities that come with debit/credit cards. 

 

[Allerion]

To be honest, I like the idea of debit and credit cards, I just really hope it's not going to be too complex to use them and imo. there should be limits to it, depending on character's income. With money changes like this we could have whole banks turned into roleplay with proper bank management and more roleplay opportunities for players. But that's just a whole another idea.

[Illusory]

I'd love debit cards. I haven't used cash to pay for anything irl in years because why would you. Just feels silly carrying thousands of dollars in cash around on me at all times. 

[Triple Seven]

Sorry, but no. Let's see this new system first.

 

Also, in the starting post it states something about low-level criminals being dependent on their full income from robberies. That on it's own is a joke and that attitude incites chain robberies. A normal civilian won't even be carrying around 5k. You have to be absolutely out of your mind in character to carry amounts like that in a city with a crime rate like LS. This idea may sound nice, but it will lead to more kidnappings, which are traumatic events for victims and generally grave crimes. Low-level criminals wouldn't consider doing that at all in my opinion.

[Alyssa McCarthy]

I agree that it makes sense to spend funds from your bank account, you should be in possession of your credit card to do it.

It's hard to refute that, because IRL, that's what I need.

However, what does making it a tangible asset mean? Here's what it would mean and should be scripted for:

1) Bank accounts need to become a thing, meaning, to get a bank account, you need to be able to provide proof of ID and address to get one. Yes it sucks that the gov can find out where you live, but no proven address, no bank account - that's life, it's tough. Credit Cards also require you to be an adult - so no minors with credit cards.
2) There needs to be a way to link a credit card to a specific account (players should be allowed multiple bank accounts, just like RL).
3) Cards will get lost / stolen - so you need scripts to allow easy replacements that can be issued in 24 hours (i'd actually be for a delay, because IRL, it's an absolute pain in the neck to be without one, and I have to ask people for a cash loan - I should have to live with that).
4) Just like RL, Cards will need  PIN numbers, so that anyone can't just use them. Enter them wrong more than a couple of times, the card should be retained by the ATM.
5) Withdrawal limits - Just like RL, players should be able to set a max cash withdrawal limit on their card in a 24 hour period (we can default this to 5k, but if i want to limit that to $100, i should be able too) - These changes should take 24 hours to enact (to prevent card fraudsters immedately changing them).
6) All payments via credit card should be protected by the credit card guarantee - meaning any unauthorised use of a credit card means a character immediately receives back their cash.

7) Anti Fraud / Card cancel mechanism - There needs to be a way that players can immediately cancel their cards - be this an auto phone number like insurance or a 24/7 covered hotline.

8 - Cards need to be linked to not just a PIN number, but an address, zip code and other personal details - this is so that large transactions require all this additoinal information before they can be processed - if you try and purchase anything via online RP purchases, a check against these details should be mandatory and if they don't match, the payment would be processed.

9) All cards should be optional for contactless payments (i.e., you can opt for a non contactless one if you want it), because that too, is a thing RL.

 

And that's just a few minutes thought on how real cards work and operate - this doesn't go into counter fraud measures and the like, but it should demonstrate that it's alot more work than simply adding a credit card object.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Alyssa McCarthy

[EffPee]

3 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

Sorry, but no. Let's see this new system first.

 

Also, in the starting post it states something about low-level criminals being dependent on their full income from robberies. That on it's own is a joke and that attitude incites chain robberies. A normal civilian won't even be carrying around 5k. You have to be absolutely out of your mind in character to carry amounts like that in a city with a crime rate like LS. This idea may sound nice, but it will lead to more kidnappings, which are traumatic events for victims and generally grave crimes. Low-level criminals wouldn't consider doing that at all in my opinion.

That's fair, I worded it wrong, what I mean is they're dependent on it for extra income as their own wages aren't enough.

 

But on the note of kidnapping? Easy fix, new rules against unrealistic robberies regarding debit cards, 'don't kidnap someone and force them to put their card in an ATM'.

[Gazi]

8 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

Sorry, but no. Let's see this new system first.

 

Also, in the starting post it states something about low-level criminals being dependent on their full income from robberies. That on it's own is a joke and that attitude incites chain robberies. A normal civilian won't even be carrying around 5k. You have to be absolutely out of your mind in character to carry amounts like that in a city with a crime rate like LS. This idea may sound nice, but it will lead to more kidnappings, which are traumatic events for victims and generally grave crimes. Low-level criminals wouldn't consider doing that at all in my opinion.

IRL no one walks around with 5k but that isn't really relevant to the server per se. The servers current economy is by no means reflective of a realistic economy and shouldn't be treated as such.

[EffPee]

4 minutes ago, Alyssa McCarthy said:

I agree that it makes sense to spend funds from your bank account, you should be in possession of your credit card to do it.

It's hard to refute that, because IRL, that's what I need.

However, what does making it a tangible asset mean? Here's what it would mean and should be scripted for:

1) Bank accounts need to become a thing, meaning, to get a bank account, you need to be able to provide proof of ID and address to get one. Yes it sucks that the gov can find out where you live, but no proven address, no bank account - that's life, it's tough. Credit Cards also require you to be an adult - so no minors with credit cards.
2) There needs to be a way to link a credit card to a specific account (players should be allowed multiple bank accounts, just like RL).
3) Cards will get lost / stolen - so you need scripts to allow easy replacements that can be issued in 24 hours (i'd actually be for a delay, because IRL, it's an absolute pain in the neck to be without one, and I have to ask people for a cash loan - I should have to live with that).
4) Just like RL, Cards will need  PIN numbers, so that anyone can't just use them. Enter them wrong more than a couple of times, the card should be retained by the ATM.
5) Withdrawal limits - Just like RL, players should be able to set a max cash withdrawal limit on their card in a 24 hour period (we can default this to 5k, but if i want to limit that to $100, i should be able too) - These changes should take 24 hours to enact (to prevent card fraudsters immedately changing them).
6) All payments via credit card should be protected by the credit card guarantee - meaning any unauthorised use of a credit card means a character immediately receives back their cash.

7) Anti Fraud / Card cancel mechanism - There needs to be a way that players can immediately cancel their cards - be this an auto phone number like insurance or a 24/7 covered hotline.

8 - Cards need to be linked to not just a PIN number, but an address, zip code and other personal details - this is so that large transactions require all this additoinal information before they can be processed - if you try and purchase anything via online RP purchases, a check against these details should be mandatory and if they don't match, the payment would be processed.

9) All cards should be optional for contactless payments (i.e., you can opt for a non contactless one if you want it), because that too, is a thing RL.

 

And that's just a few minutes thought on how real cards work and operate - this doesn't go into counter fraud measures and the like, but it should demonstrate that it's alot more work than simply adding a credit card object.

These are the ideas I'm looking for.

 

I was under the assumption bank accounts are being made a thing anyway, based off this image.

 

Rome wasn't built in a day, nor will an update that completely morphs the way money is used in the server. These sort of ideas are what I want people to focus on.