Adding debit & credit cards with the future money update

[Smilesville]

7 hours ago, EffPee said:

I feel like we’ve focused on robberies more than enough on this thread, and I’d very much appreciate if you guys could try to discuss the other suggestions that come with debit/credit cards, as I’m sure that would benefit you.

But you're not paying attention to the fact that this suggestion fails on the implications a robbery would bring.

 

It doesn't matter what else is in it, how it could be used, etc. We all understand it would be a massive boon to the server - it only takes one leak to sink a ship, and this may as well be the iceberg to the Titanic.

 

How convenient for you, after all.

[Triple Seven]

8 hours ago, EffPee said:

On this server, stealing phones and clothes doesn’t actually net you any monetary gain.

So, maybe we need to look into fixing that?

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I’m all for putting roleplay at a level of importance over monetary game, I’d encourage it. However, robberies are nullified and won’t happen if we reach a point that you don’t actually get any reward at any of the attempts you make. We have to suspend realism when it needs to be suspended, in this case in the absence of the obvious real world phone/clothes market, we need cash OR bank money to supplement robbers.

Robberies are way too common, and we definitely don't need any supplementing for it when something new reduces the amount of them.

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When you take away the promise of a possible reward from doing something, it won’t be done. Removing cash money will take us into a robbery-less world (aside from the people trying to steal guns, the world isn’t so black and white), but as you know the cashless society we exist in IRL isn’t without robberies.

It may not be without robberies, but since the cash you can potentially get from robberies isn't meaningful enough for the risk taken IRL, in most areas, robberies won't be about money. Let's not create an unrealistic situation for the sake of great robbery roleplay. I'm afraid small time criminals who are dependent on something like robberies, not robberies per sé and society moves to systems that prevents them from income gained in that, just need to come up with different ways to make money. Perhaps for some it will shockingly even mean they have to give up their ways and dare I say rehabilitate and work for income, as to be able to stay alive.

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I feel like we’ve focused on robberies more than enough on this thread, and I’d very much appreciate if you guys could try to discuss the other suggestions that come with debit/credit cards, as I’m sure that would benefit you.

Can you explain what opportunities will be opened for RP if this suggestion is implemented, because I fail to see it. It would just make the environment more realistic, but with banktransfers and smartphones already being a thing, carrying cash is kind of unnecessary already, apart from script stuff that requires it unrealistically. When I buy clothes in a store I use my phone with print or code or my bank card.

 

Once again: Let's just wait for the system to be here, see how it functions and then post suggestions to improve/enhance it.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Triple Seven

[EffPee]

45 minutes ago, Smilesville said:

But you're not paying attention to the fact that this suggestion fails on the implications a robbery would bring.

 

It doesn't matter what else is in it, how it could be used, etc. We all understand it would be a massive boon to the server - it only takes one leak to sink a ship, and this may as well be the iceberg to the Titanic.

 

How convenient for you, after all.

Don’t make it personal.

 

How about we add debit cards and don’t allow them to be stolen? Easy fix, everyone’s happy.

 

16 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

So, maybe we need to look into fixing that?

Robberies are way too common, and we definitely don't need any supplementing for it when something new reduces the amount of them.

It may not be without robberies, but since the cash you can potentially get from robberies isn't meaningful enough for the risk taken IRL, in most areas, robberies won't be about money. Let's not create an unrealistic situation for the sake of great robbery roleplay. I'm afraid small time criminals who are dependent on something like robberies, not robberies per sé and society moves to systems that prevents them from income gained in that, just need to come up with different ways to make money. Perhaps for some it will shockingly even mean they have to give up their ways and dare I say rehabilitate and work for income, as to be able to stay alive.

Can you explain what opportunities will be opened for RP if this suggestion is implemented, because I fail to see it. It would just make the environment more realistic, but with banktransfers and smartphones already being a thing, carrying cash is kind of unnecessary already, apart from script stuff that requires it unrealistically. When I buy clothes in a store I use my phone with print or code or my bank card.

 

Once again: Let's just wait for the system to be here, see how it functions and then post suggestions to improve/enhance it.

I’m not going to repeat myself, I’ve explained what opportunities are opened up for RP on here, as have several others.

 

We can’t just grow out of robberies on this server, there isn’t enough opportunities for illegal money to be made, and you’re suggesting criminals just stop doing crime? Sounds like a great plan for characters based off of criminality.

 

I do agree though that we’ll have a better grasp of if this suggestion is necessary once we see how the finance update works.

 

 

[Triple Seven]

2 minutes ago, EffPee said:

We can’t just grow out of robberies on this server, there isn’t enough opportunities for illegal money to be made, and you’re suggesting criminals just stop doing crime? Sounds like a great plan for characters based off of criminality.

Yes, it's called character development. If you lock your character in as a small-time criminal and aren't open to change at all, are you even roleplaying? You're basically implying those characters can't be changed (of course they can and maybe yours will in the future, who knows), so that would negate any opportunities coming their way that would help them out of that life. And worse: That's from an OOC perspective because they were made as a criminal and the player isn't interested in how they might be influenced and moved out of that life.

 

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but people don't just stop existing when they can't do robberies for income anymore, they'll have to adapt. I suspect a lot of players with those type of characters will indeed just CK or NC out of a situation like that, but is that dedication to roleplay? Don't think so.

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I do agree though that we’ll have a better grasp of if this suggestion is necessary once we see how the finance update works.

Brilliant, then I think that's what we should wait for. This suggestion seems somewhat premature, and so is the discussion due to it.

[EffPee]

4 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

Yes, it's called character development. If you lock your character in as a small-time criminal and aren't open to change at all, are you even roleplaying? You're basically implying those characters can't be changed (of course they can and maybe yours will in the future, who knows), so that would negate any opportunities coming their way that would help them out of that life. And worse: That's from an OOC perspective because they were made as a criminal and the player isn't interested in how they might be influenced and moved out of that life.

 

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but people don't just stop existing when they can't do robberies for income anymore, they'll have to adapt. I suspect a lot of players with those type of characters will indeed just CK or NC out of a situation like that, but is that dedication to roleplay? Don't think so.

Brilliant, then I think that's what we should wait for. This suggestion seems somewhat premature, and so is the discussion due to it.

You’ve missed my point. Robberies are unfortunately one of the ONLY sources of illegal income on this server, especially for a small time criminal/gang member. It’s not character development to just stop doing robberies, my character isn’t supposed to develop out of the gang life before 20 years old, that’s poor development given how far gone he is. 
 

As long as we have a severe lack of opportunity for monetary gain in the illegal community, robberies are (unfortunately to some) the best of a bad situation. 
 

Also, it never hurt to have a discussion ahead of time.

[DasFroggy]

21 minutes ago, EffPee said:

As long as we have a severe lack of opportunity for monetary gain in the illegal community,

Then let us discuss that. Honestly, I am in complete agreement that there is a lack of other opportunities outside of robbery, so let us begin discussing how to make other opportunities exist so that robberies can be done for roleplay instead of crimegrinding.

[Triple Seven]

5 minutes ago, EffPee said:

You’ve missed my point. Robberies are unfortunately one of the ONLY sources of illegal income on this server, especially for a small time criminal/gang member.

I think you need to discuss that in a separate post from this then, this is a suggestion topic.

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It’s not character development to just stop doing robberies, my character isn’t supposed to develop out of the gang life before 20 years old, that’s poor development given how far gone he is. 

It certainly is for some. If the opportunity for monetary gain that way (which is already less than ideal as you yourself admit) surely the gang controls some stores or small-time gang members that aren't internalized into any sort of gang dealings can work in local stores for monetary gains.

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As long as we have a severe lack of opportunity for monetary gain in the illegal community, robberies are (unfortunately to some) the best of a bad situation. 

Again, discuss this separately, don't improve a broken situation, fix it and then improve.

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Also, it never hurt to have a discussion ahead of time.

Usually not, but it does in the wrong place and about the wrong things.

 

None of us really have any idea how this feature is going to pan out, suggestions pertaining to it are clearly too early. Separate issues, in this case around stuff to make money as a small-time criminal need to be gone over elsewhere. The consequences of the to-be implemented financial system might impact robberies, however I highly doubt it. Money will be registered so there will potentially be more dealings in cash for the stuff between legal and illegal as to not have it logged ICly, and thus more people will carry larger amounts if that happens.

 

Throughout this topic it has become clear that bank cards will not improve robberies or their monetary gains, instead lead to more kidnapping style crime which was addressed by multiple people including myself already and is already against the rules, it basically meaning forcing people to withdraw money at a bank, which as far as I know, is not allowed, with good reason. Besides, it is 2021, it wouldn't even be too crazy a stretch to skip physical cards like that since it's moving towards phones more and more in real life (not there yet so I would suggest to not ONLY offer that). I know that has come by and is part of the suggestion, but criminals wouldn't be able to get money that way either, since it's all traced and secure.

[EffPee]

1 minute ago, DasFroggy said:

Then let us discuss that. Honestly, I am in complete agreement that there is a lack of other opportunities outside of robbery, so let us begin discussing how to make other opportunities exist so that robberies can be done for roleplay instead of crimegrinding.

I'd be happy to if I can figure out a way to have a sensible discussion in gen discussions.

Just now, Triple Seven said:

I think you need to discuss that in a separate post from this then, this is a suggestion topic.

I'm not here to discuss it on this topic, it just has to be mentioned when people keep arguing that we can make do without robberies.

1 minute ago, Triple Seven said:

It certainly is for some. If the opportunity for monetary gain that way (which is already less than ideal as you yourself admit) surely the gang controls some stores or small-time gang members that aren't internalized into any sort of gang dealings can work in local stores for monetary gains.

You're not getting it. Illegal roleplayers shouldn't have to completely switch up their roleplay because of a lack of opportunities to make money that LARGELY stem from OOC reasons, over-saturated drug market, people too scared to do deals because of scamming, upset civilians that get robbed all the time etc.

 

It has absolutely nothing to do with the character and EVERYTHING to do with the illegal scene itself. I seem to find myself putting across this point in every discussion I have about this stuff, If we tell every illegal roleplayer to 'get a job' then illegal roleplay and criminality doesn't make sense. 

 

5 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

None of us really have any idea how this feature is going to pan out, suggestions pertaining to it are clearly too early. Separate issues, in this case around stuff to make money as a small-time criminal need to be gone over elsewhere. The consequences of the to-be implemented financial system might impact robberies, however I highly doubt it. Money will be registered so there will potentially be more dealings in cash for the stuff between legal and illegal as to not have it logged ICly, and thus more people will carry larger amounts if that happens.

 

Throughout this topic it has become clear that bank cards will not improve robberies or their monetary gains, instead lead to more kidnapping style crime which was addressed by multiple people including myself already and is already against the rules, it basically meaning forcing people to withdraw money at a bank, which as far as I know, is not allowed, with good reason. Besides, it is 2021, it wouldn't even be too crazy a stretch to skip physical cards like that since it's moving towards phones more and more in real life (not there yet so I would suggest to not ONLY offer that). I know that has come by and is part of the suggestion, but criminals wouldn't be able to get money that way either, since it's all traced and secure.

Throughout this topic, I too have mentioned that this suggestion is not entirely based off of the idea of robberies. I sincerely apologise that it is most of what has been talked about. Kidnapping style crime can be avoided by a simple change to the ruleset; one that naturally would come with such a large addition. Believe it or not, criminals can actually access and use money that would be traced, that may well eventually lead to their arrest; here's another avenue of roleplay for LEO roleplayers, not just illegal roleplayers.

 

Bank loans, credit, repossessions; these things supplement every group on the server, not just illegal roleplayers. My suggestion spoke about robberies because that is what I put the most thought into at the time, but I have since come to elaborate on these other systems that could surface with a debit/credit card system & banking system. 

[DasFroggy]

Just now, EffPee said:

people too scared to do deals because of scamming, upset civilians that get robbed all the time etc.

Again, these are the consequences of letting rogue elements run rampant in your area of influence. 

 

You know what happens to rogue elements in the real world? They are found, talked to, and given the opportunity to meet the standards of more organized crime, retire, end up behind bars, or die. 

 

There is no room for rogue elements that cannot play by the rules, so to speak. They ruin business for everyone, and make life difficult. 

 

You are not one of these people, and you are not part of a criminal organization with influence, which is fine. You can still make these rogue elements your business, profit off of them by either helping the right people know about them, or by targeting them yourself. They cannot coexist with you now though, as you are seeing.

[Chaishi]

9 hours ago, EffPee said:

And I’m smart enough to know that just because I personally don’t break rules, doesn’t mean others don’t.

 

I’m not going to go back and forth on this again because you’re not actually reading the main post at this point, I don’t want this to be a “PLEASE DONT ROB ME” post, I’d prefer if you’d actually give some thought into every other possibility that could come with the addition of debit cards and credit cards, maybe if you guys get your way then they’ll add them and no one will be allowed to steal them because of OOC rules, that would be great!

Please tell me what other opportunity or reason having the credit card or debit card as an item  could be?

 

I'm not being sarcastic here, you're getting it wrong: I was sarcastic with my first message but I'm genuinely asking you what this suggestion could add to server other than making robberies profitable?