An honest discussion about the upcoming election

[Pascal]

On 7/22/2020 at 2:07 AM, DLimit said:

I'd like to clarify some information, as individuals continuously refer to the "Democrat Party" as "Center Left". As a R.L. Political Scientist, I would like to inform every one that the Democrats are more "Center-Right" while the Republicans are "Right".

This is not necessarily an accurate statement to make - it's something that has been purported across social media frequently lately, especially on Twitter, and has gained a fair bit of popularity in the past few years, leading it to being repeated and passed off as fact a whole lot, when it does not particularly mirror data on ideological positions. There's frequent talking points about how "America would be right wing in Europe", leading to stuff like this being spread around, which is disingenuous at best.

 

The Comparative Manifestos Project has studied over 1000 parties (in over 50 countries) internationally since 1945. It is effectively a massive dataset that allows us to understand each party's position, and where exactly they sit ideologically. Here's a breakdown of CMP's right-left (RILE) compositions, detailing party positions in European countries (Norway, Netherlands, United Kingdom), compared against the United States, breaking down the right-left stance of parties on social policy, market economy, and welfare.

 

CMP Data:

Spoiler

Norway

Spoiler

Overall RILE (negative is left-leaning, positive is right-leaning)

 

Social Policy Scores (negative is left-leaning, positive is right-leaning)

 

Market Economy Preference (0 is no support, positive is level of support)

 

Welfare Support (0 is no support, positive is level of support)

 

Netherlands

Spoiler

Overall RILE

 

Social Policy Support

 

Market Economy Preference

 

Welfare Support

 

United Kingdom

Spoiler

Overall RILE

 

Social Policy Scores

 

Market Economy Preference

 

Welfare Support

 

United States

Spoiler

Overall RILE

 

Social Policy Scores

 

Market Economy Preference

 

Welfare Support

 

 

In summary, this data tells us the following about left-leaning parties across Europe compared to the US:

Quote

Norwegian Labour Party: RILE (-27); Social Policy (-11); Market Economy (Almost 0); Welfare (17)

UK's Labour Party: RILE (-27); Social Policy (-13); Market Economy (1); Welfare (27.5)

Dutch D66: RILE (-8); Social Policy (-18); Market Economy (4); Welfare (12)

American Democratic Party: RILE (-20); Social (-26); Market Economy (1); Welfare (25)

While America is slightly behind Norway and the UK in overall RILE, they're generally further ahead than Europe on social policy. Democrats were trending towards the right in the 2000s, but since Obama won the 2008 election, they began to shift leftward over the past decade.

 

On 7/22/2020 at 2:07 AM, DLimit said:

Besides the raw CMP data, placing (especially that comfortably, too) the Democratic party within the Authoritarian Right quadrant simply does not make any sense. Some of auth-right's tenents include authority & hierarchy, collectivisim, social class/structure, strict immigration guidelines, family, culture & traditionalism. These ideas aren't strongly reflected in the Democratic party, which is largely modern liberalist, focusing on civil rights & justice, climate, interventionalism, rule of law, education, pathways to citizenship, etc. None of these ideas are overly right-wing, and they especially don't justify the Democrats sitting comfortably in the auth-right.

 

I think largely where the idea of "Democrats are right-wing" comes from is due to America's political culture surrounding welfare. Considerable aspects of Sanders' election policies (and AOC mirrors a lot of these ideas) were focused on welfare and state-focused solutions, which is aligned with democratic socialist/social democrat thinking. Democrats frequently disagree on the growth of state and state assistance, and overall, America is generally rather anti-welfare, notably so after the 80s due to ideas spread on welfare, such as the ones introduced in Losing Ground. While the democrats do not align with Sanders on welfare and other state-focused subjects, this does not make them "not left" and Sanders "one of the only people who are left", it means that Sanders is more statist, whereas the Democrats are more liberal.

 

As mentioned above, since Obama, the Democrats have been shifting leftward, and this trend has only been continuing. 2020's Democratic presidential nomination saw one of the largest and most ideologically diverse left-wing platforms, most of which would be hard to justify as being right wing. Furthermore, Biden's 2020 platform is perhaps the most left-leaning platform from a Democratic frontrunner, moving beyond what Obama/Clinton offered, and is also well-aligned with the 2020 Democratic Party Platform draft from two days ago, which is also very left-leaning, although not as strongly rooted in state/welfare compared to Sanders. Besides this, Biden has made efforts for party unity, including placing Ocasio-Cortez as co-chair of the Climate Change task force, granting a major position of responsibility to someone considered further to the left within the party.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Pascal

[DLimit]

1 hour ago, Pascal said:

This is not necessarily an accurate statement to make - it's something that has been purported across social media frequently lately, especially on Twitter, and has gained a fair bit of popularity in the past few years, leading it to being repeated and passed off as fact a whole lot, when it does not particularly mirror data on ideological positions. There's frequent talking points about how "America would be right wing in Europe", leading to stuff like this being spread around, which is disingenuous at best.

 

The Comparative Manifestos Project has studied over 1000 parties (in over 50 countries) internationally since 1945. It is effectively a massive dataset that allows us to understand each party's position, and where exactly they sit ideologically. Here's a breakdown of CMP's right-left (RILE) compositions, detailing party positions in European countries (Norway, Netherlands, United Kingdom), compared against the United States, breaking down the right-left stance of parties on social policy, market economy, and welfare.

 

CMP Data:

  Hide contents

Norway

  Reveal hidden contents

Overall RILE (negative is left-leaning, positive is right-leaning)

 

Social Policy Scores (negative is left-leaning, positive is right-leaning)

 

Market Economy Preference (0 is no support, positive is level of support)

 

Welfare Support (0 is no support, positive is level of support)

 

Netherlands

  Reveal hidden contents

Overall RILE

 

Social Policy Support

 

Market Economy Preference

 

Welfare Support

 

United Kingdom

  Reveal hidden contents

Overall RILE

 

Social Policy Scores

 

Market Economy Preference

 

Welfare Support

 

United States

  Hide contents

Overall RILE

 

Social Policy Scores

 

Market Economy Preference

 

Welfare Support

 

 

In summary, this data tells us the following about left-leaning parties across Europe compared to the US:

While America is slightly behind Norway and the UK in overall RILE, they're generally further ahead than Europe on social policy. Democrats were trending towards the right in the 2000s, but since Obama won the 2008 election, they began to shift leftward over the past decade.

 

Besides the raw CMP data, placing (especially that comfortably, too) the Democratic party within the Authoritarian Right quadrant simply does not make any sense. Some of auth-right's tenents include authority & hierarchy, collectivisim, social class/structure, strict immigration guidelines, family, culture & traditionalism. These ideas aren't strongly reflected in the Democratic party, which is largely modern liberalist, focusing on civil rights & justice, climate, interventionalism, rule of law, education, pathways to citizenship, etc. None of these ideas are overly right-wing, and they especially don't justify the Democrats sitting comfortably in the auth-right.

 

I think largely where the idea of "Democrats are right-wing" comes from is due to America's political culture surrounding welfare. Considerable aspects of Sanders' election policies (and AOC mirrors a lot of these ideas) were focused on welfare and state-focused solutions, which is aligned with democratic socialist/social democrat thinking. Democrats frequently disagree on the growth of state and state assistance, and overall, America is generally rather anti-welfare, notably so after the 80s due to ideas spread on welfare, such as the ones introduced in Losing Ground. While the democrats do not align with Sanders on welfare and other state-focused subjects, this does not make them "not left" and Sanders "one of the only people who are left", it means that Sanders is more statist, whereas the Democrats are more liberal.

 

As mentioned above, since Obama, the Democrats have been shifting leftward, and this trend has only been continuing. 2020's Democratic presidential nomination saw one of the largest and most ideologically diverse left-wing platforms, most of which would be hard to justify as being right wing. Furthermore, Biden's 2020 platform is perhaps the most left-leaning platform from a Democratic frontrunner, moving beyond what Obama/Clinton offered, and is also well-aligned with the 2020 Democratic Party Platform draft from two days ago, which is also very left-leaning, although not as strongly rooted in state/welfare compared to Sanders. Besides this, Biden has made efforts for party unity, including placing Ocasio-Cortez as co-chair of the Climate Change task force.

Despite every thing that you've stated, it's still a "Center-Right" party, as any thing that is left of the spectrum would involve worker's ownership of the means of production, which clearly does not exist as it remains under capitalist lines. It's centrism leaning a bit to the right of the middle line. "Collectivism", in the context of "Authoritarian-Right" ideals, is NATIONALISM (not Internationalism), which is one of the single-handed greatest tenants being advocated by both Republicans and Democrats. The phrase "God Bless America" is a key-indicator of such ideals, as both parties embrace supporting "America, first" over any other nation within the world. It's still a Right-wing party, just to the left of the Republican party.

 

State-Capitalism is not left wing. Welfare-Capitalism is not left-wing. They're still on the right side of the spectrum. The ONLY EXCEPTION is Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez, whom are "Social-Democratics", barely surpassing the left-side of the spectrum.

" authority & hierarchy, collectivisim, social class/structure, strict immigration guidelines, family, culture & traditionalism. "

Both parties are still strict on immigration. However, the Democratic Party does not vouch for mass-deportation. It doesn't mean that they are not strict in regards to VISAS etc... The social-class structure is their talking points on "Upper-class, middle-class, and lower-class"... which exists and is still promoted by both parties. Authority and hierarchy exists within both parties.

In regards to traditional ideals? Liberalism is the ideal... in the modern context? It's Neo-Liberalism. Both parties are Neo-Liberal parties. Hence, they are right-wing parties.

EDIT: When you say "shifting left since Obama", it's around one square left of Obama's dot on the compass... it's still on the Right-side of the political spectrum.

Edited July 23, 2020 by DLimit

[Pascal]

3 minutes ago, DLimit said:

Despite every thing that you've stated, it's still a "Center-Right" party

I don't plan to reply anymore after this as I don't want to clog up the thread (if you really want to continue this you can PM me). You're welcome to dismiss not just what I've stated, but years of study on ideology and political opinion not done by myself but an entire field of political academics if you like. Ultimately, you are attempting to assert a re-definition by saying "it is". Is this based on something you know to be a fact, or something you read online that you strongly believe in? Sit and think on that for a while.

 

10 minutes ago, DLimit said:

any thing that is left of the spectrum would involve worker's ownership of the means of production, which clearly does not exist as it remains under capitalist lines.

Left vs. right is not communist thought vs. capitalist thought, both leftism and rightism is far more complex.

 

11 minutes ago, DLimit said:

"Collectivism", in the context of "Authoritarian-Right" ideals, is NATIONALISM (not Internationalism)

Nationalism is part of it, however it is broader than nationalism, as it involves sense of belonging, be it within communities, organisations, authority groups like the police/military, religious collectivism etc.

 

17 minutes ago, DLimit said:

NATIONALISM (not Internationalism), which is one of the single-handed greatest tenants being advocated by both Republicans and Democrats. The phrase "God Bless America" is a key-indicator of such ideals, as both parties embrace supporting "America, first" over any other nation within the world

This is a vast over-simplification of a far more complicated topic, as there are a lot of factors that influence this, such as American exceptionalism, which is the belief that America is different to all other nations and has a specific sense of purpose and objectives, which is more to do with virtues and values than the nation itself. "America first", meanwhile, is a nationalist talking point, but this is largely to do with isolationism, which is opposed to American exceptionalism, which involves state interventionalism. These ideas are conflicting, and are approached differently by Republicans and Democrats, indicating that the two parties are not the same, as you are asserting. Liberals within the Democratic party tend to advocate for interventionalism, whereas Republicans (which has largely been accelerated due to Trump) advocate for isolationism. Center-Right Political Parties in Advanced Democracies is a good paper to read through to understand the main differences in thought:

 

 

1 hour ago, DLimit said:

The ONLY EXCEPTION is Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez

You're ignoring a lot of political figures here - there are more people involved in American politics than two individuals who are popular on social media currently.

[DLimit]

20 minutes ago, Pascal said:

I don't plan to reply anymore after this as I don't want to clog up the thread (if you really want to continue this you can PM me). You're welcome to dismiss not just what I've stated, but years of study on ideology and political opinion not done by myself but an entire field of political academics if you like. Ultimately, you are attempting to assert a re-definition by saying "it is". Is this based on something you know to be a fact, or something you read online that you strongly believe in? Sit and think on that for a while.

 

Left vs. right is not communist thought vs. capitalist thought, both leftism and rightism is far more complex.

 

Nationalism is part of it, however it is broader than nationalism, as it involves sense of belonging, be it within communities, organisations, authority groups like the police/military, religious collectivism etc.

 

This is a vast over-simplification of a far more complicated topic, as there are a lot of factors that influence this, such as American exceptionalism, which is the belief that America is different to all other nations and has a specific sense of purpose and objectives, which is more to do with virtues and values than the nation itself. "America first", meanwhile, is a nationalist talking point, but this is largely to do with isolationism, which is opposed to American exceptionalism, which involves state interventionalism. These ideas are conflicting, and are approached differently by Republicans and Democrats, indicating that the two parties are not the same, as you are asserting. Liberals within the Democratic party tend to advocate for interventionalism, whereas Republicans (which has largely been accelerated due to Trump) advocate for isolationism. Center-Right Political Parties in Advanced Democracies is a good paper to read through to understand the main differences in thought:

 

 

You're ignoring a lot of political figures here - there are more people involved in American politics than two individuals who are popular on social media currently.

My entire point was that they are center-right parties, which is what the article, which you've referenced to, is classifying them as.

They're Neo-Liberal political parties, as a whole. I've conducted 8 years of academic research into the Political Sciences as a Political Scientist. The only difference is that The Democratic Party are a few points to the left of Republicans in the political compass, which is what I am referencing to.

Most Americans still believe that Democrats are Socialist-leaning parties, when, in fact, they are Welfare-Capitalists, which remains on the right side of the political spectrum. This is the commonly agreed upon analysis of both political parties amongst the majority of Political Scientists within North America. 

Just because the Democratic Party are "the most left they've ever been" doesn't make them a left-wing party. They are a center-right party on the most left region of the right-side of the spectrum, and the ONLY applies to people such as Bernie Sanders and Ocasio Cortez. 

List a single policy that is on the left side of the spectrum. One policy. I can ensure you that the "Left-leaning" policy has capitalist intent. I.E. Overpriced VISA fees, using taxation to invest in NEO-LIBERAL interventionism overseas etc... It's all for a Right-leaning end goal: Neo-Liberalism disguised as two different parties.

Edited July 24, 2020 by DLimit

[Mecovy]

I will also add a graphic here to add gravitas to some points about the ever complex shift in parties. And since this applies to America and this server is emulating America, I find it highly applicable to use. Politics before Reagan took office did sit very much so in the "center", there was little deviation. After a rapidly increasing "polarization" i.e the difference from the middle has been recorded. It's also a minor misnomer to use the world normal in politics, because political leanings depend heavily on the topics discussed at that time, cultural views of the public and the parties at that given time, what the others are doing (thanks trump) and far more.

 

The second article whilst about presidents, encapsulates the over arching theme of conversation.  And to clarify for those, polarization means the diverging of political ideological issues. But in reality, American politics is an absolute beast of an entangled web and right now I don't even think experts know truly what is going on. Let an known a thread on a gaming sub community. No one here can truly do justice to the state of cultural and political shift currently happening. At least not without a 50 page essay and that's the tip of the iceberg.

 

I could entirely be missing the point of whats being discussed here, but here's some charts, they look pretty and are political.

[Pádraig]

18 minutes ago, DLimit said:

List a single policy that is on the left side of the spectrum. One policy. I can ensure you that the "Left-leaning" policy has capitalist intent. I.E. Overpriced VISA fees, using taxation to invest in NEO-LIBERAL interventionism overseas etc... It's all for a Right-leaning end goal: Neo-Liberalism disguised as two different parties.

#transrights

[DLimit]

4 minutes ago, VisioningHail said:

#transrights

Economic policy*

Supporting the LGTBQ community under Nero-Liberalism is "Fiscally Conservative, Socially 'liberal'".

It's benefiting pharmaceutical companies, especially. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by DLimit

[Pádraig]

8 minutes ago, DLimit said:

Supporting the LGTBQ community under Nero-Liberalism is "Fiscally Conservative, Socially 'liberal'".

It's benefiting pharmaceutical companies, especially. 

 

 

[DLimit]

Just now, VisioningHail said:

 

 

What's inaccurate about my statement? It doesn't liberate them from the economic constraints of the current system, in-which the income-inequality gap is expanding on an annual basis. It's still a center-Right party. 

Welfare-Capitalism is not Left-wing. It's only "Left" in America because the U.S. has never had a near successful "Left-wing" party. Closest one was The Black Panther Political Party, and they were dismantled by the C.I.A.

Edited July 24, 2020 by DLimit

[mj2002]

Can we steer this discussion back to GTAW elections? I appreciate that you can argue over what is left or what is right, but what is really the relevance here? There are plenty of issues, questions, topics of discussions, and concerns about the upcoming elections. This one about left vs right in actual American politics doesn't seem to rank so high, to be perfectly honest.