The Police Department & You

[Trupiano]

3 minutes ago, Topinambour said:

I think the problem wasn't the "am I in the right, legally speaking" aspect, but more the amount of complaints. It can be discouraging, if everyone you interact with is annoyed and grumbly - and it's usually a bad sign. When a specific RP interaction is interesting to nobody, it's probably because it's not that interesting in the first place. =/ And making sure RP interactions are compelling is important to a major extent. 

@Westen's Character is a traffic cop. That specific RP interaction is interesting to his character is it not?

 

I'll say it again for the people in the back. This is a Serious RP server, Not a medium or light RP server where you just get to skip the coolest part.

Your also skipping over the whole part where this creates more room for compelling RP to begin with, for everyone. We're lucky enough to have a police department that has hundreds of characters in it. I have a buddy who has been police commissioner in multiple FiveM community small and large and every time I tell him the amount of PD we have he salivates. We are lucky to have a player run PD that is large enough to actually enforce parking laws instead of relying on scripts and somehow that's not good for RP?

[Topinambour]

7 minutes ago, Henning said:

That specific RP interaction is interesting to his character is it not?

RP is a cooperative experience. If you're the only one having fun and everyone else around the table wish they were home, there is probably an issue somewhere ?

[Trupiano]

Just now, Topinambour said:

RP is a cooperative experience. If you're the only one having fun and everyone else around the table wish they were home, there is probably an issue somewhere ?

Exactly I'm glad you agree! :)

 

You (The person who gets Towed) isn't enjoying it..

But the criminal who robs you on your walk home?.. He's enjoying it.

The cop who got to have your car towed?.. He's enjoying it.

The taxi driver who drops you off at the impound?.. He's enjoying it.

The tow truck driver who tows your car?.. He's enjoying it.

 

RP is a cooperative experience. If you're the only one having fun and everyone else around the table isn't doing anything that could inconvenience you because you'll complain, there is probably an issue somewhere.

[Topinambour]

And yet, everyone was complaining against the towing. It's almost as if you and a very few are an extreme minority who enjoy this type of mundane RP ^^ 

 

Now don't get me wrong. If you want to log on, and spend 3 hours queuing at the DMV, feel free to do so. I won't prevent you. However, forcing everyone else to do it is a strange thing that, as mentioned, I've only ever seen on GTA V. It could be because of the similarities between the world of GTA and the real world, creating confusion between suspension of incredulity, and 1:1 realism - both of which are vastly, vastly different. 

 

That said it goes way beyond the scope of this thread ^^ 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Topinambour

[MasterChief]

21 hours ago, Westen said:

Hi. So, I help run the traffic division (main division responsible for towing) and I can give some insight into this, and simply put, the PD cannot win.

 

On the first day that we were able to impound vehicles for illegal parking, we impounded 20-30 cars for it. Good result, you'd think, except no.

People complained to me how it was non RP for police to tow their vehicle, how they didn't even get a chance to move it, how it should be the city's job etc etc.

Erm... non-RP how? They parked illegally. The penal code is posted for anyone to read and understand. It's all IC and within PD's right to do so. I'd argue its Non-RP and an OOC/metagame issue to be parking illegally because a majority of those people probably wouldn't park that way in real life. They are doing it because they have been getting away with it OOC'ly on this server until now. Now because they are getting in trouble for it IC'ly, it's all of a sudden an issue. They can deal with it.

 

If there needs to be a middle ground, let PD issue parking tickets to the registered owner of the vehicle just like they do speeding tickets (if they can do that already, I don't know because I haven't gotten one). The person would get a notification to pay it just like other tickets. If someone complains that a parking ticket is non-RP, then they aren't on the right server lol.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Kestalas

[MasterChief]

20 hours ago, Topinambour said:

It does. Both IRL but also in RP ? 

 

The question I tend to ask myself when creating a scene or RP situation is: "What sort of interesting character development does it offer?".

 

Here, what sort of character development or interesting story does it create for the cop involved? Most likely not much, he will copy/paste a "/me give a ticket and calls a tow truck", cool. What sort of character development for the person affected? Zero. He will actually be unable to move around the city and as a result RP less (please don't tell me "call a cab", there are barely any unfortunately - I tried to get one last week and ended up going back home on foot long before I found one ? ). 

 

So the result of that RP interaction would be:
- The RP for the cop wasn't that interesting (a /me most times)

- Less RP for the affected person since they can't move around

- More money grinding for the affected person, which can result in less RP

 

 

Unfortunately, it's a situation where nobody seems to win much ? 

Your reasoning is flawed, in my opinion. The same could be said for a cop issuing a speeding ticket or failure to stop at a designated stop sign/traffic device ticket. You could make similar points for the RP interaction. A cop giving someone those kinds of tickets is fairly "mundane", but that seems to be a normal and accepted behavior. People accept it, pay the fine and move on.

 

It was just fine for them to park illegally (which probably wasn't consistent with everyone's character stories to to be breaking the law so freely), but they did it out of OOC convenience. It's a double standard that it's now a non-RP complaint because they aren't getting away with it anymore. Pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

 

It's part of any sort of normal law in a state in the US. Illegal parking is wrong, whether that's interesting or not. Part of these situations are here to keep some sort of order, not just to create RP. People wouldn't go around parking illegally like this in real life (not in this magnitude at least). I get we're not trying to mimic real life 1:1, but at the same time there should be a line drawn where it's not completely unrealistic.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by Kestalas

[Trupiano]

1 hour ago, Kestalas said:

Your reasoning is flawed, in my opinion. The same could be said for a cop issuing a speeding ticket or failure to stop at a designated stop sign/traffic device ticket. You could make similar points for the RP interaction. A cop giving someone those kinds of tickets is fairly "mundane", but that seems to be a normal and accepted behavior. People accept it, pay the fine and move on.

 

It was just fine for them to park illegally (which probably wasn't consistent with everyone's character stories to to be breaking the law so freely), but they did it out of OOC convenience. It's a double standard that it's now a non-RP complaint because they aren't getting away with it anymore. Pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

 

It's part of any sort of normal law in a state in the US. Illegal parking is wrong, whether that's interesting or not. Part of these situations are here to keep some sort of order, not just to create RP. People wouldn't go around parking illegally like this in real life (not in this magnitude at least). I get we're not trying to mimic real life 1:1, but at the same time there should be a line drawn where it's not completely unrealistic.

 

 

To piggy back off your point, You can still park the way you were previously however there are now consequences to those actions. New laws are being added to the penal code almost daily to make way for the 1.7 Update its not just legal RPers being effected. Its not a bad thing but you can't complain when Illegal RPers have to deal with this: 

 

https://forum.gta.world/en/index.php?/topic/17205-street-terrorism-enforcement-and-prevention-act/

 

 

[Big_Smokes]

On 9/20/2019 at 7:26 AM, Henning said:

Would we ever possible see the addition of a second Police station? Namely the Vespucci Police Station? Vespucci, Morning wood, Little Seoul and Del Perro are increasingly more active with players, businesses and IllegalRP and because of the sizable distance from Mission Row I think opening that station would be great for Player/Police interaction. A Good example of this would be the possible addition of more bike patrols through the Vespucci area.

 

We are currently working on a second location to man, but I do not want to release any details just yet. All I can say is that we are actively working on it, and that I hope it is a nice surprise when it comes out.

 

On 9/20/2019 at 3:34 PM, Vindus said:

Used to love the interactions between PD and my former faction when we were roleplaying in Rancho. Some of those cops are still around, shout out to them. I had my best roleplay experience with these people but I gotta be honest though, for the past half-year I have seen a huge deterioration in the PD on this server, sure it's hard to control the quality of one's members, especially when the faction is as big as PD but had any other faction's members been acting the way I've seen members of the PD act, it would have caused serious consequences for that faction (Not saying there been no consequences, I genuinely don't know as I'm not staff or in the PD).

Nonetheless, I respect the work PD put in and I genuinely hope I've been unlucky with meeting these people as like I stated before I have had some great roleplay with members of the PD. I know not everyone is a metagaming trigger happy robot without emotions in the PD and that's not what I want to say either as I know and had the pleasure of roleplaying with several good roleplayers from the PD. I am also unable to say if the leadership in PD has a close watch on their members as I don't do police RP but as a faction leader that has been in leadership in many factions I've often had to be responsible for my members and their actions, this does not seem to apply to the PD though. 

Is gang unit still a thing? Have not seen them for a long time. Would be very nice to see them again as well as maybe a second police station. 

Keep it up. 

 

Okay, so, Detective Bureau. We recently dove into the Detective Bureau with a fine looking glass to identify issues and challenges we face. As such, we had to make changes to our existing detective divisions - however, in turn, we have appointed fresh faces (lower down the chain of command, to be more specific) to be in charge of developing and running our new take on the Gang Unit. We are extremely excited about the progress made so far, and we hope that you guys get to enjoy the fruits of our labor soon.

 

Also, one big problem is that (well, refer to the main post) people don't actually report OOC misbehavior/quality issues to me. At all. Period. Non existent. I have not received a roleplay quality report on any individual in months, so all me and my command staff can tackle are those situations we personally witness. Hence the encouragement in my before posts to actually bring it up. My discord DMs are open and my forum account, both here and on the LSPD forums, are completely accessible. If you do witness such things, please also take the time to bring them forward. As an addition to that, one of my guys is currently working on a roleplay quality report system specifically for my faction members to hopefully streamline the process and encourage people to come forward if they witness issues.

 

Also, thank you for the compliments.

 

On 9/21/2019 at 10:12 AM, Flow said:

For most of the people I've interacted with roleplaying, the experience has been great. Little instances like a cop recently blocked both sides of a road with barriers when we were roleplaying fixing a pothole, s/o if you're reading this.

 

I'd also really like to see one or two out of 10 cops being somewhat corrupt at least. Say if ones being offered a couple three g's on the low instead of a ticket written out, it'd be more than likely for a middle class cop to take it. Of course, this has a lot of factors to it like the risk coming with it, the characters ethic and morals, FM and chief approval for corruption perms and whatnot, which is why I mention a rough reasonable number as in 1 or 2 out of 10. 
In the long run, it's sure to create interesting storylines beit for the the person roleplaying the cop, civilians, illegal characters as well as the department.  

We currently have a good system to control corruption. Not all corruption is barred per say, it's the more heinous things that require both my approval and that of my FM handler. A lot of people simply don't apply for it, but those that do, if they show good (RP) effort leading up to it, are rarely shut down. For us it's about having a reason to be corrupt, not just being corrupt for the sake of being it.

 

On 10/1/2019 at 9:18 AM, Westen said:

Hi. So, I help run the traffic division (main division responsible for towing) and I can give some insight into this, and simply put, the PD cannot win.

 

On the first day that we were able to impound vehicles for illegal parking, we impounded 20-30 cars for it. Good result, you'd think, except no.

People complained to me how it was non RP for police to tow their vehicle, how they didn't even get a chance to move it, how it should be the city's job etc etc.

 

In regards to the mentions of illegal parking. Uh, OOC RP concerns aside, as was stated before, ticketing simply doesn't work because there is no script support for writing out parking tickets, thus we are reliant on that being added. As for impounding illegally parked vehicles, I believe we are currently under-utilizing some of our assets in that regard. However, it's a two way street. Taking on illegal parking is very much an IC issue and as far as it's regarded IC by most of the LSPD it's like trying to empty the ocean with a thimble. Although I will see if we can make a more conscious effort to combat this issue, remember that this is also something that civilians by en large play a role in. Write your local mayor to encourage better parking enforcement! He'll be on my ass, trust me, I'm sure of it.

 

On 10/1/2019 at 10:15 PM, Topinambour said:

And yet, everyone was complaining against the towing. It's almost as if you and a very few are an extreme minority who enjoy this type of mundane RP ^^ 

 

Now don't get me wrong. If you want to log on, and spend 3 hours queuing at the DMV, feel free to do so. I won't prevent you. However, forcing everyone else to do it is a strange thing that, as mentioned, I've only ever seen on GTA V. It could be because of the similarities between the world of GTA and the real world, creating confusion between suspension of incredulity, and 1:1 realism - both of which are vastly, vastly different. 

 

That said it goes way beyond the scope of this thread ^^ 

Try waiting in line for an interview with the esteemed paints news. I've been queuing going on a month so far.

 

Sorry for not actively contributing to this thread in a while! As I've stated on a different post, I'll be making some time again to continue answering any questions/things brought up. Let me know if there's anything you'd like to bring forward or want to have my take on.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Big_Smokes

[Trupiano]

3 hours ago, Westen said:

99% of the people I arrest are incapable of carrying out those threats. The one time someone tried to carry out the threat, they got gunned down with like, 4 rifles (in over a year of playing).

 

Penn v. Mimms states that a cop can order you out of your vehicle on a stop. Terry v. Ohio states should the officer suspect you are carrying weapons he can perform a terry frisk. That covers both of your above points, and, assuming the officer can justify that, there are no rights violations. That's not bad RP. 

 

 

1. That's cool and all but you should still treat it as what it is, a threat. If your going to disregard all threats with a blanket statement of "Many have tried and all have failed" then Cops should be CKable on duty. If you can't manufacture fear into your RP then you should be given a mechanic or system that gives you something to fear. @Westen this is not exactly directed to you either, this is directed to PD as a whole. The cards are INCREDIBLY stacked in PD's favor, Carbine rifles, swat trucks, Helicopters, The ability to use Voice communication during pursuits. Just like it is in real life the Police are given all the tools they can legally use to win and it should be that way.

 

However, I've seen a slipping trend when it comes to my interactions with PD specifically relating to No FearRP and more importantly, unprofessional behavior. Cops flashing their lights only to pull up behind you and yelling and/or use their megaphone to say "Learn how to drive!" (This happened last week). Cops pulling you over then wait five minutes to type anything while they talk to they're backup in TS/Discord (This happened last week). Getting in clearly vehicle disabling collisions with objects/buildings/other police cruisers and continuing a police chase like nothing ever happened (this happened two weeks ago). Officers showing up to calls, feeling they aren't "Interesting enough" then leaving the call never to return (This happened three weeks ago). I've seen cops put minimum RP into entire encounters only to turn into text RP savants when they're flirting with their paramedic girlfriend who is resuscitating you. (This happened three weeks ago). I could go on naming situations where PD and FD have completely drop the ball but it comes down to this:

 

If I'm required to RP fear when committing an illegal act, Why aren't PD being required to RP fear when their life is on the line every second they are in uniform?

 

2. The issue is they aren't justifying it. If a cop actually spent five minutes to RP examining the vehicle, the passengers, etc I'd have no problem. Its the lack of RP that's the issue, most traffic stops go as follows:

 

• Get pulled over.
• Cop walks up.
• Cop asks for ID.
• /sdl
• Cop says get out of the vehicle.

At no point does the cop RP running my license, at no point do they radio me in, at no point do they do more then the bare minimum to get the exciting part because that's what they would rather do.

[Westen]

Just now, Henning said:

2. The issue is they aren't justifying it. If a cop actually spent five minutes to RP examining the vehicle, the passengers, etc I'd have no problem. Its the lack of RP that's the issue, most traffic stops go as follows:

 

• Get pulled over.
• Cop walks up.
• Cop asks for ID.
• /sdl
• Cop says get out of the vehicle.

At no point does the cop RP running my license, at no point do they radio me in, at no point do they do more then the bare minimum to get the exciting part because that's what they would rather do.

I think you have a couple of valid points in the first part, and yes, I have flashed people and slowed them down before saying "slow down" simply because I'm on my way to a more important incident. However at what point should my character start to fear gangs when the majority of them are simply incapable of carrying out their threats? If there were things to legitimately fear - for example, a few months ago it was very difficult to do things in Forum Drive simply because you'd get swarmed by B13 - that was fear. People were scared to respond to calls in Forum Drive. 

 

To address the quoted part, there's a lot that you cannot see. Whilst I'm not making excuses, there's a litany of reasons you can be stopped and asked to step out of the vehicle without the officer going through the whole rigmarole. For example, there might be intelligence to suggest you're involved in a crime; or you match the description of a suspect or suspect vehicle involved in a crime. There's ALPR to run plates automatically for us, etc etc.