Rework Police Helicopter rules.

[Fenris]

Having set rules will hopefully prevent issues from both sides in the long run, too often people on either side aren't sure on what can and can't be done. If rules are set in stone then everyone is on the same level, it may prevent less reports (One could hope), but also make it enjoyable overall. Criminals need to be able to have a chance to get away, and PD etc need a chance to catch said criminals who attempt to get away.

Whilst we argue over realism and In character, we also have to remember its a game and there needs to be things in place to ensure things are fair for all parties. It's not legal vs illegal, rules in place will help the community as a whole.

Whilst I don't do illegal rp, I've seen a lot of people get caught because somehow they were followed for ages, and the camera picked up something that arguably they wouldn't have realistically seen. And that understandably would suck.  Char dev potentially altered because of something like that, its beyond frustrating which is why rules need to be set so we have it sorted.

And of course on the flipside, law enforcement can face toxicity or accusations that are unfounded when using things correctly (AKA two sides of the coin we always have to consider).

 

Once rules are done it will be far easier to deal with any reports, complaints etc.

[Copperhorse]

Whatever happens I just hope LFM learned their lesson the last time they tried to update helicopter rules. Please request input from the parties involved before making rules. As we saw the last time it seems LFM went way out of left field without consulting legal factions causing a lot of toxicity and having people leave the server / helicopter divisions.

[Coach]

8 hours ago, Rubbish said:

...there's been a good few forum reports up right now where people get arrested due to them in what I believe to be an unfair advantage and borderline powergaming/P2W with their camera being able to see literally everything in full 8K definition.

 

Instead of proactive they should be considered reactionary...

 

37 minutes ago, kristofer said:

I can also agree that being able to zoom in on with your camera in full 8K and make out the tiniest of details is silly...

At the time of writing this, none of those forum reports have been closed, so there is no proof that any of them have any merit (which for the most part it doesn't look like they do). I encourage anyone who thinks the camera is overpowered to look up what those cameras can do IRL. Not only can they zoom in to identify faces clear as day from over 1000 feet away, but they have many more tools (such as FLIR) that make them much more of an asset than what we currently have.

 

I hope you can see how ridiculous it is to suggest that they should only be "reactionary". Policing is about being proactive not reactive. 

 

7 hours ago, MurderO said:

Helicopters should rp rapid fuel consumption etc. 20 - 30 mins in the air max before being forced to refuel for 5-10 mins, happy medium.

Where are you getting your info that helicopters can only fly for 20-30 mins? Or is this just a suggestion to force them to be grounded frequently? (Genuinely asking)

 

4 hours ago, DeadPlaya said:

...The auto tracking 120x zoom thermal camera was enough.

We don't have thermal. I also think the /me addition has helped as many pilots (can't speak for all) will not RP seeing weapons in peoples hands in vehicles unless they see the /me about it.

 

2 hours ago, Revolter said:

I'm not sure how is in US, but here in Europe Police has to have damn good reason to lift helicopter.

LAPD ASD is up 24/7, most of that time several helicopters.

 

1 hour ago, DeadPlaya said:

3-6 helicopters up for tens of millions of people is a different ratio than 1 up for 500-600. Also, there's constant foot and vehicle traffic. A helicopter camera operator stays busy. Here, you have a handul of vehicles around at the same time. They get undivided, constant attention from the AIR unit that's up.

This is a valid point for the most part. If we have a helicopter up in GTAW, it is only one 99% of the time. With the rules implemented with the last wave of complaints we aren't allowed to simply follow individuals for no reason besides the fact that they exist (which is a totally fair rule). So this is sort of already being balanced. That said, we will never be able to make this particular point completely fair as there's nothing we can do besides adding tons of NPCs to fill up the empty streets.

 

1 hour ago, Larenis said:

Why does everything need to turn into a 'oh, illegals do this, legals do that. This is so unfair.' Can't we all just enjoy the server for what it is? Legals don't always win, illegals don't always win. Just take the bad experiences and adapt from them. You got caught doing a gun deal outside? Well, take it inside a place. Or find a covered parking lot. And the same goes both ways. As long as it's not violating any rules, I don't see the point in complaining. The seeing of /me's IMO are a good thing, considering it stops people from argument of 'oh, it's desync bro'. Whereas if you RPed it, there's proof you did mean to do what you did.

This. 100% this.

 

1 hour ago, sribvlad said:

I think the biggest problem with the helicopter is that people getting hunted/observed by one cannot even see/hear it. 

Agreed completely with this. They should not be as quiet and undetectable as they are. As mentioned by someone else, this may be a Rage limitation but I wonder if there is a way around it? Similar to how gunshots can be heard outside of your door or something? No idea, I have no clue how that stuff works.

 

38 minutes ago, Jankara said:

So follow any car or wait long enough and you are going to get something 

As stated above, we already aren't allowed to do this.

 

23 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Having set rules will hopefully prevent issues from both sides in the long run...

 

I've seen a lot of people get caught because somehow they were followed for ages, and the camera picked up something that arguably they wouldn't have realistically seen.

I can't speak for any other agencies but PD, but we already fully implemented all of the suggested LFM rules internally, even though they were never officially put into place in the game. The only exception being the "timer" for turf camping. That's going way too far. We still kept the no turf camping rule, just not "timed" like suggested.

 

I totally agree being stalked by a helicopter and getting caught would be extremely frustrating (and unfair). But again, we have rules in place that don't allow this and haven't for a while. Yet we still see lots of reports. Part of the issue is it's hard for those on the ground to "prove" they are being camped, but it's also not realistic to think every pilot will record the entirety of every single air patrol they do "just in case" they get reported for turf camping. I'm not sure where the middle ground is here, but I think if it's possible having the audio for helicopters be louder/extend further is potentially a good start? If it's even possible, who knows.

[Fenris]

Just now, Coach said:

I can't speak for any other agencies but PD, but we already fully implemented all of the suggested LFM rules internally, even though they were never officially put into place in the game. The only exception being the "timer" for turf camping. That's going way too far. We still kept the no turf camping rule, just not "timed" like suggested.

 

I totally agree being stalked by a helicopter and getting caught would be extremely frustrating (and unfair). But again, we have rules in place that don't allow this and haven't for a while. Yet we still see lots of reports. Part of the issue is it's hard for those on the ground to "prove" they are being camped, but it's also not realistic to think every pilot will record the entirety of every single air patrol they do "just in case" they get reported for turf camping. I'm not sure where the middle ground is here, but I think if it's possible having the audio for helicopters be louder/extend further is potentially a good start? If it's even possible, who knows.

 

Then maybe transparency would help in terms of telling people what the rules are for PD? I think a large part of reports is the fact people don't know what regulations there are unless they report and find out that way.  May be worth looking at.

[joshua]

2 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Then maybe transparency would help in terms of telling people what the rules are for PD

 

4 minutes ago, Coach said:

but we already fully implemented all of the suggested LFM rules internally, even though they were never officially put into place in the game. The only exception being the "timer" for turf camping. That's going way too far. We still kept the no turf camping rule, just not "timed" like suggested.

 

[Fenris]

3 minutes ago, joshua said:

 

 

I apparently can't read on no sleep.

 

 

[DeadPlaya]

20 minutes ago, Coach said:

I encourage anyone who thinks the camera is overpowered to look up what those cameras can do IRL. Not only can they zoom in to identify faces clear as day from over 1000 feet away, but they have many more tools (such as FLIR) that make them much more of an asset than what we currently have.

I agree with most of your points so I'll only single this out. The idea is that while yes, the ability of the helicopter camera can be comparable with its IRL counterpart, you must admit that it is used in different ways. A one hour patrol that say, LAPDs AIR unit would do is very, very different from how it would go down on GTA:W. If you look at any footage, it's almost saturated in traffic and movement. On GTAW, you get at most 3 cars on the same road at the same time. 

 

In my opinon, balancing this is impossible. You can't force more people to be out and about, and neither can you populate the streets with NPCs. That said, everyone knows that if you see a car occupier by 4 people driving through South Central there's a 90% chance they're gang affiliated. It'd be moronic to even try and compare this to real life.

 

So, our only option is to at least try to be fair about this on an OOC level. If someone's doing dumb shit in public and you see them, intervene. If people aren't,  don't. Look around another part, check later. Just respect people's time and the type of RP they've chosen to do. LEOs have far, far greater control on how RP goes down than anybody roleplaying a criminal. Both sides should work towards creating meaningful, engaging scenes not another felony stop the officers involved about will forget about in an hour, or another "i thought he'd pat me down" officer homicide.

[Coach]

 

21 minutes ago, DeadPlaya said:

The idea is that while yes, the ability of the helicopter camera can be comparable with its IRL counterpart, you must admit that it is used in different ways. A one hour patrol that say, LAPDs AIR unit would do is very, very different from how it would go down on GTA:W. If you look at any footage, it's almost saturated in traffic and movement. On GTAW, you get at most 3 cars on the same road at the same time. 

 

That said, everyone knows that if you see a car occupier by 4 people driving through South Central there's a 90% chance they're gang affiliated.

 

If someone's doing dumb shit in public and you see them, intervene. If people aren't,  don't.

Yeah this is absolutely a fair point. I absolutely agree the patrols look different and the saturation of the streets isn't comparable in the slightest. Nor can anyone deny that 4 deep vehicles on GTAW are extremely suspicious, where as IRL it wouldn't be at all. But again, we have rules in place (in PD at least) that prevent pilots from doing this. It falls under "turf camping".

 

The last point is one I agree with 100%. But there is far more grey area in that than people think in my opinion.

 

For example, you would be SHOCKED (or maybe wouldn't be) at how many people drive 120mph through the city not stopping a single time. I'd go as far to say it's a large majority of the server. Technically speaking, that's an IC action meaning it should have an IC consequence. It's in the Penal Code and therefore we can do something about it. But should we? The answer to that depends on who you ask. Some might say "yes so that they learn their lesson". Others say "no it's just a game". Whatever it may be.

 

The same goes for players who decide to drive with a ski mask and medical gloves on. Would you really do this before getting to (or close to) the location you are planning to conduct criminal activity in? Would this not be suspicious IRL for literally anyone who sees it?

 

2 hours ago, Larenis said:

You got caught doing a gun deal outside? Well, take it inside a place. Or find a covered parking lot. And the same goes both ways.

It brings me back to this post. A lot of the reports I've seen (and I'm sure there are some situations that weren't reported or I didn't see) were situations that were completely avoidable with just a little bit of common sense and being smarter with actions.

 

That's not to say some pilots have never abused anything in the past or are perfect by any means. I'm just saying a lot of the reports I've seen have, in my opinion, appeared far more IC than overpowered/p2w. Though I'm sure there are many more situations that aren't reported, so I take that with a grain of salt.

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Coach

[SpaghettiMayne]

I strongly want to weigh in on here, here's the factors that we cannot change as LSPD, LSSD, SAPR, SANFIRE, etcetera whichever agency we wish to talk about;
- Audio Issues pertaining to Altitude, and District closeness. (That's a game mechanic.)
- Traffic Existence or Frequency. (That's a server limitation and mechanic - although studies and documents we have as well as warrants and prior injunctions show us where hotspots are, thus we're allowed to be over the area, even with strict limitations in place for timed periods).
- 1:1 Ratio of Real Life imagery. (People are under belief that it should be exact for one party and not the other, it's not the case. We cannot 1:1 the reality of the world, nor can any complainant, although some issues of mechanics are agreeable).

What we can weigh in and observe:
- Illicit and Unprovoked / Misuse of ASD, AOD, AD, whatever you wish to call them, and violating these rules regardless of their implementation.
- Providing balanced feedback on all parties that are the issue rather than the Division or Department collectively. I personally record all my flights and patrols because of many factors with anyone who players here may have experienced.
- All parties have a right to expect realism, and at the same time, leniency given that GTA V is a very flawed game that was made as a Open World near-Sandbox with Missions, that have issues towards all sorts of things; vehicle sound and damage, gun sound and damage, sprinting abilities, jumping abilities. All of that.

How do I suggest we move forward?:
- As worded by parties not even involved, as much as those who are involved, whether LEO, or Not have the due diligence to understand that there's a lot of grey area that cannot be turned Green or Red because it's not physically possible in any factor no matter the complaint or incident.
- Stricter response from LFM and IFM towards offending parties of all reliable and evident complaints such as blatantly killing someone in the open over an insult, or evading over "thinking they have a warrant" or evading for "having a gun" or even in most cases lately, shooting just because you've been stopped for Tint, when you have a gun. - I will say it as a long standing LEO Roleplayer of this Community. We do not ask you out of the car unless you become passive-aggressive, have past and priors for evading or endangering lives (violent offences). If you provoke a Police Officer before they've told you "Hey, I'm XYZ, I've stopped you for 123" then the outcome is solely on you. They have policy and mandates that allow them to freely remove you from the car, or subject area like an establishment or business if you are being passive aggressive and escalating the situation. 
- Particularly, ASD responses are from a lot of barrel rolls and snowballing effects, groups provoking police for no reason when they have illicit items on their person then leading to some complaining the loss of said items as it's gotten to handcuffs, and then ASD frequents over in 'Orbit' for 'Scene Security' especially if the group is known to be illicit, aggressive, or is currently being one of the two. Per example, look at many compilations of shootings vs. Gangs and vs. LEO, all from provocation a good 8/10 of the time. -- On the other hand, there's also flaws in the ASD, AOD, AD areas of LEO. Which we can easily implement OOC policies preventing people being stopped for small, minor and petty stuff that a helicopter or plane would not take entire notice to, unless it's a vehicle they are after.
- (QUICK EDIT: - I want to also add that the expectation that a LEO has responded to your illicit driving, isn't something you could have hidden if you're barrelling through the streets at 100mph+, a bystander, a motorist, a family, a traffic camera, or even a junction camera would spot you quite frequently in real life, as much as the next guy who's John Doe of LSPD/LSSD).

This response is not targeting any specific person it is a broad oversight from a lengthy roleplayer whom has been in all walks of roleplay, Legal, Illegal and Neutral-based roleplays on this and many other communities. 🙂❤️ 

Edited January 13, 2023 by SpaghettiMayne

[Jeroen]

The report against me is a frivolous, meritless and malicious forum report. And I will fight the forum report to the fullest extent.

Time will show the truth, that's for sure.

---

 

About the helicopter audio, I've tested this myself with the latest sync. You're able to hear the helicopter at any altitude, be it 500 ft. or 2500 ft.

If the helicopter is streamed in at all, you will be able to hear it.

 

---

 

Now I'm actually glad we can see /me's, because this will decrease the amount of false-positives around firearm desync issues. If someone pulls a gun using a /me we can properly see it. I know that myself and other officers will not use this to see things you wouldn't be able to see, because such things can easily be disputed.

Speaking about things you wouldn't be able to see, I think that the helicopter camera as-is is arguably pretty realistic.

 

If I grab my binoculars in real life and look through it, I'd be easily able to spot and see someone waving a gun around over 500 meters away. These binoculars that I have aren't special ones, it's a Nikon 10x42 Prostaff 5 that I bought a few years ago for €189,00.

 

The helicopter cameras used aren't your regular binoculars or regular cameras, they are extremely expensive state of the art aerial surveillance systems.