[Discussion] What can improve RP interactions between players and general RP standards?

[fortieznshortiez]

33 minutes ago, sk8 said:

 

The above, 100%. 

 

Illegal RP is an integral backbone in RP communities, and this servers done nothing but shit on them and cater to ERPers and mall rats. 

 

Yeah cool, we've got IFM who don't actually understand the very communities they police. We'd be better off leaving factions to run themselves like LS-RP did, with minimal admin intervention. 

 

Remember when an entire 60+ people brawl between four-five outlaw motorcycle gangs was voided because ONE civilian got caught in the midst and got punched? 

 

This servers admins don't care about realism or RP, it's about gate keeping and people pleasing their E-Friends and being too afraid to look introspectively. 

The quality of RP has died because this servers quality of management and administration has died, plain and simple. 

 

Go on, forum warn us, ban us, reject our schemes - whatever. We speak our minds and get punished for it because staff's ears are too soft. There's some solid people in the staff team, but the majority are useless and here to serve their own egos, not the community. 

agreed tbh. especially with the minimal to no intervention with factions. i feel like we'd see some really good shit pop up and take over. ive talked to a few people that are really good rpers and are just flat out unwilling to put the energy into creating or continuing shit due to issues they've had and i cant blame em.

[Engelbert]

Honestly I been to many communities, so let's debunk few myths here shall we?

1 - illegal roleplay is the backbone of roleplaying communities. False, only in GTA is appears so. Every game has different setting.

2 - Admins should dictate the way roleplay goes. False again, administrators normally serve as game masters or GMs watching over the roleplay, but rarely interfere if there's no one breaking rules. Economy and business relations here need an overhaul and need it badly. Yesterday was too late.

3 - Open PVP is not the core of roleplay, it's a feature. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

4 - GTA community to an extent is unique, cause other communities have their dramas too, but rarely about portrayal or roleplay itself.

5 - Normally if people break rules (major rulebreaks ofc), they are given only 1 chance to redeem themselves, otherwise they are permabanned in any other community.

6 - Donations are donations, maybe confusing, but donating shouldn't unlock any exlusive rights for a player. Perhaps cosmetics yes, but that's all.

7 - I know this is kind of far fetched, but major factions, especially those that are known worldwide, should be given priority when it comes to important decisions.

    Factions like eMe, AB, black car. other car should have a major word cause they are creating roleplay for other factions too.

8 - There can be more, but I am done for now. If people follow these, they will be fine.

 

Edit: Believe or not, most of shit going down here is PvP oriented. Think about it.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Engelbert

[knppel]

1 hour ago, mj2002 said:

So to get back to the topic, what can we do to improve this situation?

 

I think communication is the key for staff to be able to decide on matters more efficiently.

 

CK apps are a perfect example:

This is something that matters a lot, both for players that request them as well as for players who might be target. In theory at least.

Consequently, such decisions are usually treated with consideration by staff- to a point where frequently decisions are postponed.

 

This creates frustration on both ends: Requesting players have to wait out for months over permissions to kill someone for what might also be a heat-in-the-moment thing originally, but developing into a long standing murder plot solely because one asked for ck perms and will after some weeks eventually be granted them.

 

On the other end stand players who find their characters murdered over stuff that, latest at the point of the ck, often have no clue what it might be about, as that plotline was far off their radar after weeks of not running into the other party (as they were waiting for their app to proceed and laid low ic).

 

The problem here lies in relevance:

If I in my role as news reporter let's say exposed the misdeeds of some mob people, I'd certainly expect them to somehow be angry and try to get back at me (via murder or elsewise, irrelevant).

If the mobsters however have to wait 4 months until an eventual app to murder my char is proceeded (or as much as break in her place to leave a message), and in the meantime I from my point of view have a douzen plotlines cooking where I might expect urgent interference from people whose secrets are at immediate risk of exposure, suddenly getting killed in payback for something lays months back would feel plain dumb, as much sense as it'd make for the respective gangsters.

 

What can be done to speed this up? Get both sides points of view.

Administrators can at any time approach any player and ask them about situation X.

No need to mention there's an ongoing murder plot if there is.

 

44 minutes ago, sk8 said:

Yeah cool, we've got IFM who don't actually understand the very communities they police. We'd be better off leaving factions to run themselves like LS-RP did, with minimal admin intervention.

I can only speak for the legal side from experience, but in comparison to lsrp I noticed one crucial difference:

There is in fact less direct intervention (and quite some might argue LSNN would have needed it at time, one way or another), but opposed to that much more gatekeeping and ropes to jump for players/factions that need things.

 

I also gotta mention at this point, at least for LFM it got much better the past year- asking for something will now get you in touch with someone who will then actually consider what you need and if it makes sense (which a year ago was not really possible). Shoutout to @Moe, @Storm, @Viscaria@Banks and the rest who put in effort the past half year at this point, it's appreciated.

 

Direct intervention however is minimal:

The cases were we from our side were approached from staff over the past years in interventive manner in our rp (opposed to responses to requests or general updates relevant for anybody) I can count out on one hand, and two of the cases concern complaints that Carry appeared at a scene fast in a Grotti (due to hearing of the situation ic while driving in it), and in one instance us being asked if we could also report more over shootings (answer: We can of course whenever we learn of them ic).

A fourth case was regarding us preparing the text for /news shows upfront and copy-pasting it (which was argued as potential powergaming as we might be able to report faster this way).

 

Now this is just my experience and dealing with LFM, of course-

The whole design of our administrative system as a whole is re-active and not proactive, however, so I'd expect the same pattern on the illegal side too.

With the expection that with murder as bread and butter i'd need to request permissions more often... not tempting admittedly.

 

1 hour ago, goonbagAPPEAL said:

IFM literally went out of their way to appeal my unban… you ever heard of that before?

The problem is a full lack of fault culture (individuals excepted).

The design tries to aim for decisions to be 100% accurate in accordance with the rules (which slows down the decision finding process).

This is due to administrators being given both time as well as usually plent of "evidence" to investigate cases, i.e. logs, screenshots, recordings, lengthy narratives.

 

Scientific data from football (Soccer) displays that referee decisions can not be 100% accurate.

People make mistakes- us players break rules unintentionally, admins enforce rules wrongly.

It's not a big deal at all unless we make one out of it- which is happening.

 

Now to go more in depth, and to see why the football comparison is so relevant (It's based on analyzing almost 10,000 games so that is no small scale study).

As mentioned, we have evidence in reports.

Football fans will know that exists in football too since a few years.

 

Now according to studies, referee accuracy in correct rule enforcement without a Video assistant referee (VAR) is usually 92%.

Since the introduction of video assistant referees, situations similar to our reports here are possible.

New studies show that with a VAR, referee decision accuracy increased to 96%.

 

What does this mean for roleplay?

Simple: Even with tons of evidence and months of time for our staff to decide on matters that are not super pressing like ongoing foul play, not all decisions will ever be 100% correct.

That is simply impossible.

The administrative system, to raise its own efficiency, must take this in account, allow itself these mistakes without to first ponder over months (mistakes will happen either way) and, in case, reflect over them without to get defensive.

 

We all err, it's human.

36 minutes ago, Psychedelic said:

I'd like to be treated as a customer for once

 

Yeah I too think that might be a good approach

Edited July 6, 2022 by knppel

[fortieznshortiez]

Just now, Engelbert said:

Honestly I been to many communities, so let's debunk few myths here shall we?

1 - illegal roleplay is the backbone of roleplaying communities. False, only in GTA is appears so. Every game has different setting.

2 - Admins should dictate the way roleplay goes. False again, administrators normally serve as game masters or GMs watching over the roleplay, but rarely interfere if there's no one breaking rules. Economy and business relations here need an overhaul and need it badly. Yesterday was too late.

3 - Open PVP is not the core of roleplay, it's a feature. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should.

4 - GTA community to an extent is unique, cause other communities have their dramas too, but rarely about portrayal or roleplay itself.

5 - Normally if people break rules (major rulebreaks ofc), they are given only 1 chance to redeem themselves, otherwise they are permabanned in any other community.

6 - Donations are donations, maybe confusing, but donating shouldn't unlock any exlusive rights for a player. Perhaps cosmetics yes, but that's all.

7 - I know this is kind of far fetched, but major factions, especially those that are known worldwide, should be given priority when it comes to important decisions.

    Factions like eMe, AB, black car. other car should have a major word cause they are creating roleplay for other factions too.

8 - There can be more, but I am done for now. If people follow these, they will be fine.

i feel like you missed the point for the 1st one, im pretty sure they meant backbone of servers like gtaw - which is true. the 'core' of the roleplay is at it's heart nothing more than cops & robbers with extra steps. gang rp is and will always be a highlight of gta rp, as well as ocgs and mcs, and LEOs are the flipside of that. though it is a normal life rp server and every facet of life is a part of it's setting, those typically are the draw to it.

 

the rest i mostly agree with tho.

[Engelbert]

7 minutes ago, smo said:

i feel like you missed the point for the 1st one, im pretty sure they meant backbone of servers like gtaw - which is true. the 'core' of the roleplay is at it's heart nothing more than cops & robbers with extra steps. gang rp is and will always be a highlight of gta rp, as well as ocgs and mcs, and LEOs are the flipside of that. though it is a normal life rp server and every facet of life is a part of it's setting, those typically are the draw to it.

 

the rest i mostly agree with tho.

I can agree with that. I personally see it as modern daily life roleplay. Sure that can be said about 2nd life (no, actually it can't lol).

I roleplay both, legal and illegal side though, just tend to lean more to legal side, cause honestly what many people don't know....

life of a gangster is not a happy life, you always have enemies to look out for, always have someone "where's my money?! Yesterday was too late."

They die young. Irl or here, makes no difference. That's life they chose or were forced into. So tough or not, they have to put on an act.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Engelbert

[pendeja]

1 hour ago, sk8 said:

 

 

 

Remember when an entire 60+ people brawl between four-five outlaw motorcycle gangs was voided because ONE civilian got caught in the midst and got punched? 

 

 

 

 

She just stood there too 😂😂😂

[mj2002]

 

34 minutes ago, smo said:

i feel like you missed the point for the 1st one, im pretty sure they meant backbone of servers like gtaw - which is true. the 'core' of the roleplay is at it's heart nothing more than cops & robbers with extra steps. gang rp is and will always be a highlight of gta rp, as well as ocgs and mcs, and LEOs are the flipside of that. though it is a normal life rp server and every facet of life is a part of it's setting, those typically are the draw to it.

 

the rest i mostly agree with tho.

 

I think interactions would greatly improve if we collectively move further away from the interpretation that this server is in essence cops vs robbers with extra steps.

[Farrell]

It's a pretty known fact around the community that hardly anyone in the illegal scene is exactly happy with the current state of IFM and the actions they take which heavily impact roleplay in turn. People just aren't always willing to speak out in fear of repercussions. Which we all know is very well possible considering how easily people get banned and silenced in this community. It honestly is a shame to see the state of how things are in comparison to what they could be. I understand that IFM is a small team but this is entirely their own doing. They have a massive workload which takes time to go through - which again, is entirely their own doing. It's absolutely absurd to see reports, CK applications and the likes taking upwards of two months to get a response. This is the type of stuff which can heavily impact roleplay.

 

Prime example in roleplay being effected because of some weird bureaucracy is when my faction approached another faction, gave them an ultimatum and during this conversation, mentioned another faction which we were recently at war with (now in an IFM forced ceasefire) and SOLELY because we mentioned them and what we'd done to their faction, IFM went out of their way to void the situation and threaten with punishments if it was ever done again. 

 

This thread will undoubtedly be closed soon and people will be silenced over it, as per usual. Attempts to talk to Nervous about stagnant issues within IFM have been made but they've usually been met with "I don't want to intervene. It's on Shanks" and to be honest, Shanks is just about the worst person to deal with. It takes him weeks on end to read a forum PM and you'll be lucky if you get a reply saying "I'll review this when I can." Bare in mind the particular PM was submitted in May.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Farrell

[K0range4]

Speaking as a relatively new player with only a couple of months under his belt, somewhere I think we as players can improve is the quality of the factions we are creating and/or supporting. I understand the original post asks not to bash players/factions/types of RP so please don’t consider this bashing but more of my observations as someone with pretty fresh eyes.

 

Factions are among the most common ways to get involved in RP and GTA World has a lot of them. In fact, the server has a lot of good factions but boy does it have a lot of bad too. Why do so many of us players want to keep on creating and recycling the same tired faction concepts? Surenos, Bloods, Crips, White Power, and Motorcycle Gangs, over and over and over and over… Not only that, most of these faction threads read the same way, often something to the effect of –

 

Quote

“In the 1970s Jose “Big Gangster” Smith arrived in Los Santos and quickly took over the entire city. He established a gang, known as the “Lil’ Gangsters” who became the most feared force to ever live. In the 90s the police arrested everyone, so they suffered some losses. But now, they’re back with 200 members all over the city and are super violent and the most notorious gang on X street.”

 

I know the server continuity has San Andreas replacing California, so I understand the logic of “well, I’ll just do some quick research on LA gangs, pick a favorite, and roleplay that! It’s realistic!” It technically is but (and no offense to those who have done this) to me it comes off as lazy and uninspired.

 

To further illustrate my point, I’m going to point to Surenos as my example but this applies to all the real-life based factions - Why would you want to open a sureno faction when 1) There are tons of them already and 2) Literally all the work and story is already done? At its core a sureno faction has very little room to grow, develop, or go anywhere. Surenos are already well established all over the server and IRL, they already have worldwide notoriety, and play a huge part in the prison system. What is your new sureno set going to accomplish OTHER THAN getting into fights or conflicts with other gangs? Very little, if anything. And this same scenario applies to crips, bloods, white gangs, etc. If you created a faction with some combination of the following - 1) Already super notorious/historically feared 2) Complete or major area control 3) Committing violent crimes 4) Huge member base 5) Access to guns, drugs, or major IC income maker - I honestly think you messed up. It’s like starting a baseball game but it’s already the 9^th inning and you’re up 10 runs. Or saying “I’m going to play this new video game” and then downloading a nearly complete save file off the internet. You missed huge swaths of story and roleplay and opportunity to build something real. Don't get me wrong - This doesn't mean you need to create a faction, group, or character(s) that are minors or have never done anything before. But some part of your faction's story should have your characters starting at the bottom of whatever ladder they're trying to climb.

Additionally, why would you NOT want to create an organic Los Santos based gang, and see where the roleplay takes you? This leaves the playing field wide open and gives you a lot of time and opportunity to build something. If your faction ends up growing and becoming a notorious and violent organization, well hey you have the story and roleplay to back it up. Or maybe, in character circumstances lead you to ally your group with a bigger and more powerful one for protection which is a much more natural process. It can also lead to some great RP from the more established factions – Going back to my sureno example, if you created a Los Santos-only Hispanic Street Gang that started making moves and becoming actual players, maybe La Eme or one of the other sureno groups approaches yours and tries to get your group to pay taxes and swear loyalty to them? It’s conflict, but its organic, and makes these larger groups work for their status too.

 

I am not saying that we should ban all IRL groups from becoming factions here, but I do think we should take a more critical look at the factions we’re allowing to operate. If you are thinking of starting a faction, I have a few suggestions that might help :

• Look at real life reasons why a group would form and then do some RP around that. Tagging, protection, money making, drugs, vandalism, drinking buddies, anything and start actually roleplaying that before you start up a thread.
• TAKE YOUR TIME! Walk before you run. See what happens to your character or group when they first hit the city and take those IC interactions into consideration when making your faction.
• If you are dead set on making a real life gang, please reconsider. At the very least see if you can thinly veil it with some kind of Los Santos-based alternative. If you truly do not want to do that, see if your idea for a faction can somehow fold into one of the already established groups. The motorcycle gangs seem to do this well already by establishing different chapters, there’s no reason that we can’t have different crip sets or sureno sets in different areas, and I bet there are a lot of already established gangs that wouldn’t mind supporting a new local set under their banner.
• Get Creative! Look outside of wikipedia articles and news reports. Write your faction like you would write a character, WHY do they exist, WHAT are their long term goals, WHO are the driving forces behind this group? Combine elements of several real life organizations, add in your own flavor based on your roleplay and things you/your character like, and tweak and alter certain aspects.
• Most importantly, have fun with it! This world can be your oyster and it requires good ground work. Don’t stifle yourself to early with stale and rehashed concepts

 

And my suggestions for other individual players? At the risk of sounding like an environmental ad or cheesy corporate jingle… Shop local, and support your small time RP today! Seriously, we should have more Los Santos based groups working from the ground up rather than trying to shoehorn in yet another copy/paste real life LA gang or club. If you’re already in an established faction, real life based or not, and you see another small time group opening up, maybe consider Rping with them in a way that isn’t just block wiping them. See if your roleplay can somehow inform theirs, and do what you can to help the roleplay on this server thrive.

[pendeja]

7 minutes ago, Farrell said:

It's a pretty known fact around the community that hardly anyone in the illegal scene is exactly happy with the current state of IFM and the actions they take which heavily impact roleplay in turn. People just aren't always willing to speak out in fear of repercussions. Which we all know is very well possible considering how easily people get banned and silenced in this community. It honestly is a shame to see the state of how things are in comparison to what they could be. I understand that IFM is a small team but this is entirely their own doing. They have a massive workload which takes time to go through - which again, is entirely their own doing. It's absolutely absurd to see reports, CK applications and the likes taking upwards of two months to get a response. This is the type of stuff which can heavily impact roleplay.

 

Prime example in roleplay being effected because of some weird bureaucracy is when my faction approached another faction, gave them an ultimatum and during this conversation, mentioned another faction which we were recently at war with (now in an IFM forced ceasefire) and SOLELY because we mentioned them and what we'd done to their faction, IFM went out of their way to void the situation and threaten with punishments if it was ever done again. 

 

This thread will undoubtedly be closed soon and people will be silenced over it, as per usual. Attempts to talk to Nervous about stagnant issues within IFM have been made but they've usually been met with "I don't want to intervene. It's on Shanks" and to be honest, Shanks is just about the worst person to deal with. It takes him weeks on end to read a forum PM and you'll be lucky if you get a reply saying "I'll review this when I can." Bare in mind the particular PM was submitted in May.

Not to mention many factions had an issue with the same ones for breaking rules and spawning to start wars with everyone. Yet when you show evidence to back everything up, they complain about it being too long. Well it's been going on for too long to not have that much information.