Hyperrealism and gatekeeping role-play

[Mahitto]

8 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

i disagree. if you want to rp something, you should do the bare minimum to rp it properly. at the end of the day rp communities usually give you the freedom to surround yourself with likelyminded people. say i want to do realistic and enjoyable law rp and I've people who are interested in doing that as well. what bothers you about it? you don't have to rp with us do you? that applies to pretty much every single field of rp, you'll have people who are more knowledgeable or less, but willing to learn and adapt. there's nothing wrong with this.

 

Absolutely, you should do the bare minimum. I think everyone agrees (and if they don't, they're not here to role-play). But this topic is not about that. It's about setting the bare minimum to an extremely high level without providing people with any ways to learn.

 

2 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

This is contradictory. You roleplay a cop, therefor you went through training to become a cop. Ergo; you should know everything you need to know about your firearm. It’s stupid, and bad roleplay if you don’t. A cop that can’t clear a gun just looks dumb. Doesn’t mean you have to be technical about it, how often have you roleplayed performing maintenance on your own weapon or turning it in? I doubt you even thought of roleplaying that, and you don’t have to if you don’t want to. And if you do, but you don’t know how; Google. There are user manuals for everything available online. 
 

What’s next? Cops allowed to feign ignorance of the US constitution because it might not be common knowledge outside of the US? 

 

I really like how @Copa Cabana put it. There's nothing wrong with going in-depth as long as you're not expected to have this knowledge right off the bat. What you're mentioning in your reply is knowing the bare minimum - of course people should be aware of that. The problem is requiring them to be highly technical about it right off the bat.

[Topinambour]

15 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

i disagree. if you want to rp something, you should do the bare minimum to rp it properly.

Well that's the thing, you don't disagree 😛 We're on the same page on that point: you should indeed know the bare minimum to RP it in a believable manner. E.g.: if you RP a bartender you should know some basics of what a whiskey on the rocks is, stuff like that. However, what we're talking about here isn't that: it's with people OOC'ly requiring you to have a mixologist diploma from the university of universal bar master, just to pour them a stupid JD ^^' 

 

The problem isn't verisimilitude, or basic knowledge to portray something well enough. The problem is *hyper*realism, aka insanely high-level OOC technical knowledge, set as a baseline starting requirement ^^ 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Topinambour

[eTaylor]

1 minute ago, Mahitto said:

I really like how @Copa Cabana put it. There's nothing wrong with going in-depth as long as you're not expected to have this knowledge right off the bat. What you're mentioning in your reply is knowing the bare minimum - of course people should be aware of that. The problem is requiring them to be highly technical about it right off the bat.

I have never seen such a requirement on this server, and if you have examples I’d love to see them. If it’s general expectations, yes I expect more from someone roleplaying a “tweaker” than just casually and socially smoking methamphetamine like they’re vaping for fun. Or going absolutely bananas only to claim “I’m high on skante, foo’!”

[i dont wanna od in LA]

6 minutes ago, Topinambour said:

Well that's the thing, you don't disagree 😛 We're on the same page on that point: you should indeed know the bare minimum to RP it in a believable manner. E.g.: if you RP a bartender you should know some basics of what a whiskey on the rocks is, stuff like that. However, what we're talking about here isn't that: it's with people OOC'ly requiring you to have a mixologist diploma from the university of universal bar master, just to pour them a stupid JD ^^' 

 

The problem isn't verisimilitude, or basic knowledge to portray something well enough. The problem is *hyper*realism, aka insanely high-level OOC technical knowledge, set as a baseline starting requirement ^^ 

can you point out one faction that enforces such an insanely high level of knowledge as a starting requirement? I'm genuinely curious.

[Mahitto]

2 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

I have never seen such a requirement on this server, and if you have examples I’d love to see them. If it’s general expectations, yes I expect more from someone roleplaying a “tweaker” than just casually and socially smoking methamphetamine like they’re vaping for fun. Or going absolutely bananas only to claim “I’m high on skante, foo’!”

 

I have, actually. I've seen it happen quite a lot, and it's been more and more prevalent. I was browsing another topic here when I noticed that others were talking about similar experiences, which made want to start a new topic as to not derail the other. 

 

Just now, i dont wanna od in LA said:

can you point out one faction that enforces such an insanely high level of knowledge as a starting requirement? I'm genuinely curious.

 

I can, businesses too, but I won't. This is not about specific businesses or factions, about calling them out or bashing them, but rather the general practice.

[nateX]

If someone wants to be a manager or an agent for a celebrity, the least they could do is to educate themselves. Managing something takes skill, not everyone can do it, so why should I give someone that's completely uneducated in the field the position instead of someone that knows what he's doing? Most of the jobs just take common sense or 1-2 hours of research. If you don't think that roleplaying a realistic environment with people that are qualified is fun and gives character development, that's a you issue. 

 

Another example that comes to mind is a lawyer. Would you rather hire someone that had a good record of winning cases or someone who doesn't even know what a subpoena is? 

[nateX]

On another note, LSPD, LSFD, LSSD teaches you throughout your starting period, it's very newbie friendly. If you roleplay a gang member or someone who has grown up in the environment, the least you could do is at least educate yourself what growing up in those areas is like, the rest just takes common sense and someone to guide you.

[Topinambour]

13 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

can you point out one faction that enforces such an insanely high level of knowledge as a starting requirement? I'm genuinely curious.

As Mahitto pointed out, naming & shaming probably isn't a bright idea. That said, I mentioned it in a previous reply, I (and others) have had such issues with specific garages as well as a white collar company. 

 

9 minutes ago, nateX said:

Another example that comes to mind is a lawyer. Would you rather hire someone that had a good record of winning cases or someone who doesn't even know what a subpoena is? 

Well it's out of topic. What you're talking about here is rather basic knowledge. The issue pointed out here isn't basic knowledge as a requirement, but hyper technical knowledge as a requirement ^^' Aka: the problem wouldn't be "I can't hire your character because you don't know what Brown v. Board of education is", but "I can't hire your character because you don't know what Compagnie Francaise de Navigation a Vapeur v. Louisiana Board of Health is so we can't hire you". The argument made here is that the first one is somewhat important, your character and you OOC'ly as a player should have a basic knowledge of the task. However, for the second one (more niche and advanced stuff), you should be able to figure it out on the go since it's very technical. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Topinambour

[Mahitto]

1 minute ago, nateX said:

If someone wants to be a manager or an agent for a celebrity, the least they could do is to educate themselves. Managing something takes skill, not everyone can do it, so why should I give someone that's completely uneducated in the field the position instead of someone that knows what he's doing? Most of the jobs just take common sense or 1-2 hours of research. If you don't think that roleplaying a realistic environment with people that are qualified is fun and gives character development, that's a you issue. 

 

Another example that comes to mind is a lawyer. Would you rather hire someone that had a good record of winning cases or someone who doesn't even know what a subpoena is? 

 

I'll make a small note in the initial post since  I can see that my original idea isn't getting across, so I probably didn't phrase it correctly.

 

What you're describing there is realism, but the issue some of us have identified is hyperrealism - setting the bare minimum to be way too high and not giving people a way to get there. Take mechanic garages, for example, as lots of people seem to have an issue with them - you're not only asked what's under the hood or how to install a turbocharger, but rather need to know the exact order components go in and out in, the sizes and types of tools that you use on each component, the diameter of the bolts and nuts you're installing and such.

 

You can definitely spend a few hours and properly research what mechanics do, how, how cars work (simplified) but you'd need months to properly master such stuff.

 

Just now, eTaylor said:

You won’t bring them up, but you keep referencing them for a discussion? So why didn’t you keep this discussion private with the people you talked to? You literally made up “hyperrealism”, slapped an idea and concept to it and started throwing it around for “discussion” purposes but I (and I assume others) have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. No legal faction has hardline requirements about “knowledge” or hyper-whatever. And if a business wants to do that, it is their prerogative. It’s their business, literally and figuratively. 

 

Last time I checked, bashing factions, groups and people is very much against the rules. For a more specific example, there's a certain gun store on the server where you can apply for a job. It's a pretty basic job, gun store clerk. However, you'll have to answer flash questions on weapon training, gun laws and procedures, as well as give very specific information about a wide range of weapon models, firing types and systems used in these weapons, safety systems, calibers, etc. They don't provide training, but rather expect you to know it. They also don't accept you Googling the answers and it's not stuff that you can learn in hours, or weeks. It's stuff you can only learn over time if you're truly passionate about guns.

 

I'm not saying they can't, but rather discussing whether they should. I also don't know what's so hard to grasp about hyperrealism. It's not a new concept. If you've never heard of it before, it's defined in the initial post and along this discussion. Simply put, hyper means super, or very.

[shaobadman]

thought i was the only one that noticed this, it's not just hyperrealism but generally a lot of avenues seem unlikely for players that can only play for a few hours per week, it can be very niche and there's not much room for suspension of disbelief and keeping details generic so a player can put their character in a certain role (like mod garages)

 

i've accepted that "it is what it is", that's the rp style of the server and we take on what we can get (very base level service or civilian/social rp) and whatever you can afford to dedicate time/interest to if you don't want to spend your free game time studying

 

  

53 minutes ago, Paenymion said:

I don't care what type of dressing a medic puts on me.  The way I see it, it should be like a movie.  A real doctor would laugh at how medicine is portrayed in a movie.  Computer people laugh at how hacking is portrayed.  Forensics people laugh at how forensics is portrayed in things like CSI Miami.  But the point is, for the general audience, that representation is fine and it's believeable enough.  I guess if somebody really wants to learn their roleplayed field deeply, then go for it.  But it shouldn't be a requirement for somebody just wanting to act the role, like a movie actor would.  And that's all most of us are here...actors playing a role.

 

call me shallow but i've played rp servers for years, for exactly what you've described

 

it's meant to be entertaining just like any piece of fiction, fiction writers know where to draw the line with realism, they know when the amount of information becomes uninteresting and not remotely engaging, i can get behind having a basic knowledge of what you're doing and learning some terminology but any further than that becomes pedantic, which is fine if a server is looking to build incredibly niche circles but it can be extremely alienating

Edited January 4, 2022 by shaobadman