Some changes for people who does extorting RP

[KV]

3 minutes ago, Shiro said:

There should still be rules regarding this.

 Explain to me how you'd implement a specific rule regarding this?  I'm eager to hear it.  Because what I see from your example you've provided, it looks to be poor execution, poor RP, poor escalation/DMing . . .   All things you can already report for.  So how would you personally word a rule? 

"Don't do bad RP?"  I wish this was a rule.  But we can report for it already.

Edit for the line about having a good reasoning: Reasoning is subjective to say the least which is very difficult to put in a rule and would be hard to enforce.  Not that I disagree that they should have good reason.  I'd link that in with RP quality.  
 

Edited August 8, 2020 by KV

[Shiro]

Just now, KV said:

 Explain to me how you'd implement a specific rule regarding this?  I'm eager to hear it.  Because what I see from your example you've provided, it looks to be poor execution, poor RP, poor escalation/DMing . . .   All things you can already report for.  So how would you personally word a rule? 

"Don't do bad RP?"  I wish this was a rule.  But we can report for it already.
 

Like I mentioned in my earlier post this should be something that can only be done by official/unofficial factions that are recognized by the managment/staff, with good reasoning such as the business being in the area the faction operates in. One of the recent posts also mentioned the extortionists actually having to take care of the business actively and responding to their requests for help instead of just logging on once a week to collect the payment. 

 

I don't really see the point of letting solo players or small groups of 3-4 people extort businesses because it's something that larger organisations should be doing as a part of controlling their territory, so having these random dudes walking door to door is straight up retarded. Why should we have to report them regularly (they dont always half ass the rp, it just simply doesnt make sense for them to do it so these reports would be very vague and having rules would prevent many of these wannabe gangsters from even bothering with their unrealistic bs) when simple rules can be put in place?

[my_g]

3 minutes ago, Shiro said:

One of the recent posts also mentioned the extortionists actually having to take care of the business actively and responding to their requests for help instead of just logging on once a week to collect the payment. 

You do know what racketeering is, right?

Edited August 8, 2020 by my_g

[KV]

Just now, Shiro said:

Like I mentioned in my earlier post this should be something that can only be done by official/unofficial factions that are recognized by the managment/staff, with good reasoning such as the business being in the area the faction operates in. One of the recent posts also mentioned the extortionists actually having to take care of the business actively and responding to their requests for help instead of just logging on once a week to collect the payment. 

 

I don't really see the point of letting solo players or small groups of 3-4 people extort businesses because it's something that larger organisations should be doing as a part of controlling their territory, so having these random dudes walking door to door is straight up retarded. Why should we have to report them regularly (they dont always half ass the rp, it just simply doesnt make sense for them to do it so these reports would be very vague and having rules would prevent many of these wannabe gangsters from even bothering with their unrealistic bs) when simple rules can be put in place?

Some small groups do have the muscle and motivation behind trying to get money from a business.  Solo players... not so much unless it's a scam artist.. lol.  I agree that people should not do it just to do it because they know they can make a quick buck.  But to me this stems back to poor quality.  I'm struggling to really see how a rule could be put in place realistically without hindering roleplay for others who would actually do a good job and have it make sense.  I think enforcing quality in this area is important though.  

[DasFroggy]

1 hour ago, my_g said:

You do know what racketeering is, right?

Racketeering is operating the business for illegal purposes, which is indeed different from extortion, however the purpose of emphasizing  the need for extorting parties to protect their target businesses is because it is both an area of influence and you cannot extort rubble. If a business calls in saying they are being put at risk, the extorting party should reasonably be expected to intervene, or lose influence if the business is successfully extorted or harmed by another organization.

[my_g]

Just now, DasFroggy said:

Racketeering is operating the business for illegal purposes, which is indeed different from extortion, however the purpose of emphasizing  the need for extorting parties to protect their target businesses is because it is both an area of influence and you cannot extort rubble. If a business calls in saying they are being put at risk, the extorting party should reasonably be expected to intervene, or lose influence if the business is successfully extorted or harmed by another organization.

sure they should if they want to run a successful operation there, but that doesn't mean there should be rules that force them to do so.

[Engelbert]

People have different views on what is good and what is bad when it comes to extortion, this is also influenced by their region or country. While it is clear, that for example in US which is quite a big country, there are plenty of ways how to extort someone, it also depends who is doing it.

In my country for example extortion does not exist anymore, cause criminals moved on and stepped up the ladder all the way up to white collars.

They don't need extortion as part of their activities anymore. But our way was precisely that, we came to a bar, we started stuff and then offered the manager or owner a way out of it, by simply paying up monthly or weekly. If they refused, we gave them some time and then we came for them and asked them again, this time however, in a secluded place, a cottage if you will. So it is not really a poor portrayal. What is poor portrayal is how and where is it done. Cause slav criminals tend to be rough and usually go all in from the start. You are not paying, we beat you, or even kill you, we don't care.

That was reality back in 90s. Because killing a business owner, doesn't exactly damage the activities, it can influence the others, telling them, he was killed, cause he did not pay, maybe we should pay. As I said it depends who does and where. Some may argue that methods have changed, yes they did.

But there are still people stuck in the old ways. Especially in Europe and if they are in US they have brought their ways and traditions with them.

But then it also depends what business are we extorting, a small group of criminal most likely won't go after big fish in the pond, aka nightclubs.

Cause those are usually taken and you need brains and guns to outwit the competition if you want money. But do you know where actual extortion happens today? In lawyer's office or financial consulting offices or drug dealer house, yes dealers and thieves are extorted as well if they don't belong to a group.

 

TL;DR

 

Kidnapping a business owner isn't unheard of, it is not common in 21st century, but still a way to deal with people, that are being extorted, but of course big organized groups don't resort to this option anymore, simply because we all live in wireless age now when your mask and gloves won't shield you from forensics anymore and anyone at any time can turn on recording on their smartphones and you are done, if you are on it. Especially in US. Not to mention, that extortion isn't really popular anymore.

Some groups still do it, but on smaller, local level or they extort other criminals, preferably those with no backing.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Engelbert

[Ink]

As said earlier in the thread, my biggest issue is that people are just not realistically roleplaying having any fear of consequences with their extortion attempts. People are abusing the fact that our server's heavy roleplay standard has crippled our LEO factions ability to enforce on extortion. In real life, getting caught extorting a business can easily put you away for 10 or more years for a first offense. In our server, it takes 5-10 minutes to do an extortion RP, but it takes 10s of hours for detectives to investigate it and put together a casefile. Meanwhile, during the creation of a casefile, all witnesses and the detectives are subject to PKs/CKs, and the criminals continue going along doing their unrealistic and braindead roleplay.

I know plenty of business owners in Los Angeles, and trust me, not a single one of them, not one no matter the neighborhood, has ever been extorted by any criminals. Tony Spaghettio never walks in going "ayyy we gotta talka ta the owna." No one ever gets kidnapped by Jakov and Petko because they didn't pay the rakia tax. No one, not a single one of them, has had their employees roughed up, their businesses burned down, or guns waved around in their businesses.

 

The current state of extortion RP on GTA:W is very much uncreative, unrealistic, play-to-win, stereotypical, outdated, and system-abusing. There is a prevalent lack of roleplayed fear, there are almost no tenable IC consequences and so criminals go hog wild with stupid extortion attempts which have no place on a heavy RP server set in a major American city in 2020.

 

If I had a rule to suggest? It's that criminals cannot extort a business unless that business already has criminal connections. Period. Because that's how it works in real life in 2020 Los Angeles. If you're a squeaky clean business with no criminal contacts and you don't do anything illegal, guess what, the local car boosting gang isn't going to risk 10+ years in prison each and having their entire operation shut down because they went after you for $250 a week. If you're a crooked business and have mob friends, run gambling games out your back room, and sell drugs in take-out bags, then hell yes the mob is going to extort you.

Real life criminals rely on mutually assured destruction to do their business. You won't report them because they have just as much dirt on you as you do on them. GTA:W criminals rely on the fact that they can easily kill and PK anyone because smash and grabs are super easy on the server and the odds of them being caught are significantly lower than in real life, and the odds of them being investigated are almost infinitely lower than in real life.

 

Finally, from an OOC perspective, it's a matter of courtesy. Some people RP legal characters and enjoy the experience of RPing an unaffiliated character who doesn't engage in the criminal ecosystem. They put in a lot of time and effort in setting up a business, applying for it, staffing it, opening it, creating graphics and forum posts for it, so on and so forth. Then criminals show up for some unrealistic extortion RP and get to essentially hijack their RP. From that point on, the business owner's choices are to A) Pay up (AKA: you're getting robbed but for some reason it doesn't follow robbery rules), B) Go to the cops and risk being kidnapped/CK'd, C) ??? Constantly deal with criminals harassing you and your business and making it unfun to roleplay until your character gets kidnapped/CK'd??? I'm not arguing that criminals should not do crime on legal roleplays, so please don't take it that way, but I am arguing that mafias shouldn't be able to hijack the roleplay of other player's RP projects as easily and inconsequentially as they do now.

@KV

Edited August 8, 2020 by Ink

[Tsarna]

33 minutes ago, Ink said:

As said earlier in the thread, my biggest issue is that people are just not realistically roleplaying having any fear of consequences with their extortion attempts. People are abusing the fact that our server's heavy roleplay standard has crippled our LEO factions ability to enforce on extortion. In real life, getting caught extorting a business can easily put you away for 10 or more years for a first offense. In our server, it takes 5-10 minutes to do an extortion RP, but it takes 10s of hours for detectives to investigate it and put together a casefile. Meanwhile, during the creation of a casefile, all witnesses and the detectives are subject to PKs/CKs, and the criminals continue going along doing their unrealistic and braindead roleplay.

I know plenty of business owners in Los Angeles, and trust me, not a single one of them, not one no matter the neighborhood, has ever been extorted by any criminals. Tony Spaghettio never walks in going "ayyy we gotta talka ta the owna." No one ever gets kidnapped by Jakov and Petko because they didn't pay the rakia tax. No one, not a single one of them, has had their employees roughed up, their businesses burned down, or guns waved around in their businesses.

 

The current state of extortion RP on GTA:W is very much uncreative, unrealistic, play-to-win, stereotypical, outdated, and system-abusing. There is a prevalent lack of roleplayed fear, there are almost no tenable IC consequences and so criminals go hog wild with stupid extortion attempts which have no place on a heavy RP server set in a major American city in 2020.

 

If I had a rule to suggest? It's that criminals cannot extort a business unless that business already has criminal connections. Period. Because that's how it works in real life in 2020 Los Angeles. If you're a squeaky clean business with no criminal contacts and you don't do anything illegal, guess what, the local car boosting gang isn't going to risk 10+ years in prison each and having their entire operation shut down because they went after you for $250 a week. If you're a crooked business and have mob friends, run gambling games out your back room, and sell drugs in take-out bags, then hell yes the mob is going to extort you.

Real life criminals rely on mutually assured destruction to do their business. You won't report them because they have just as much dirt on you as you do on them. GTA:W criminals rely on the fact that they can easily kill and PK anyone because smash and grabs are super easy on the server and the odds of them being caught are significantly lower than in real life, and the odds of them being investigated are almost infinitely lower than in real life.

 

Finally, from an OOC perspective, it's a matter of courtesy. Some people RP legal characters and enjoy the experience of RPing an unaffiliated character who doesn't engage in the criminal ecosystem. They put in a lot of time and effort in setting up a business, applying for it, staffing it, opening it, creating graphics and forum posts for it, so on and so forth. Then criminals show up for some unrealistic extortion RP and get to essentially hijack their RP. From that point on, the business owner's choices are to A) Pay up (AKA: you're getting robbed but for some reason it doesn't follow robbery rules), B) Go to the cops and risk being kidnapped/CK'd, C) ??? Constantly deal with criminals harassing you and your business and making it unfun to roleplay until your character gets kidnapped/CK'd??? I'm not arguing that criminals should not do crime on legal roleplays, so please don't take it that way, but I am arguing that mafias shouldn't be able to hijack the roleplay of other player's RP projects as easily and inconsequentially as they do now.

@KV

Awesome points. Exactly it - we live in 2020 US. Amd the PK and kidnapping, even CK, part. Exactly - later just admins state "your name was on court documents, so all is fine, and CK is legit". 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Tsarna

[NickyW]

1 hour ago, Ink said:

not one no matter the neighborhood, has ever been extorted by any criminals. Tony Spaghettio never walks in going "ayyy we gotta talka ta the owna." No one ever gets kidnapped by Jakov and Petko because they didn't pay the rakia tax. No one, not a single one of them, has had their employees roughed up, their businesses burned down, or guns waved around in their businesses.

@KV

I haven't developed a strong opinion either way but the way this was written is absolutely fucking hilarious. Brilliantly written response.

Edited August 8, 2020 by NickyW