Current State of Extorting Businesses

[shiroq]

14 minutes ago, KPace said:

Its really unrealistic how they'd go on about extorting nearly every business. A well known faction, even which has their territory situated somewhere in the city goes out all the way to Sandy Shores to extort. How's that even realistic, I suppose extortion comes handy and realistic for when your business is claimed over gang/mafia territory, yet; there should be limits for such RP coming to high end areas as suggested in the main post.

have you reported this? If no one is willing to report nothing will be done about it, it's clearly a poor portrayal and should be reported simple as that.

 

17 minutes ago, Shekh said:

We need to even the playing field in regard to this, in my opinion if someone comes to your business to extort it they are willingly putting themselves in either danger of law enforcement or getting killed themselves. If business owners can eventually be CK'd for not bowing down to an illegal organisation then those people who attempt said extortion should also immediately give their CK permission to that business owner for KNOWINGLY putting themselves at risk. (You can hardly make a CK application on a mobster if you roleplay a regular civilian/businessman, there's 0 chance that'll be accepted)

couldn't be more wrong, if you as a civilian apply for a ck? Yes you will get denied because why would you as a civilian would be killing people? Your option here would be to seek out help from a different organisation that would be willing to take your side for a smaller pay and take care of this issue for you. Why does everyone resort to killing by themselves? It makes no sense.

[Trupiano]

You all have absolutely no understanding of how CK applications on this server work or the criteria they have to meet.

 

Your asking for an OOC fix to an IC problem. If you are too scared of having you or your business harmed to go to the police? That's an IC issue and is something that you need to deal with IC. You don't need OOC rules that protect you and your business, not to mention the OOC rules ya'll are asking for completely throw character portrayal out the window.

 

Your asking for rules to be put in place that would allow you to commit murder instead of calling the police and for a character/business owner that is supposed to be law abiding, that is completely bum fuck backwards.

 

[Martyn]

4 minutes ago, shiroq said:

have you reported this? If no one is willing to report nothing will be done about it, it's clearly a poor portrayal and should be reported simple as that.

 

couldn't be more wrong, if you as a civilian apply for a ck? Yes you will get denied because why would you as a civilian would be killing people? Your option here would be to seek out help from a different organisation that would be willing to take your side for a smaller pay and take care of this issue for you. Why does everyone resort to killing by themselves? It makes no sense.

 

 

And why exactly would it make more sense for my entirely legal character to go to another criminal organisation to handle other criminals for me? That would still turn my legal character into an illegal character and is no different. If you go down the legal route, going to the police means you will get killed for snitching. So I tried alternatives, putting armed security guards in said businesses. This only resulted in the criminals not showing up with one or two anymore, but with their whole posse. What do you expect me to do, put ten armed security guards around every business we have and treat it like the white house? I'll be reported for poor quality of roleplay immediately.

 

 

I really do not get it, if you extort someone that is a hostile act. If you knowingly and purposely do this when you know it can result to the death of your character (Killing someone over extorting you is a very reasonable response in most cases) then perhaps your character should not do it or think twice on how he does it? Again, you can extort anonymously too through proper, realistic and unique roleplay. Rather than taking the Goodfellas, Sopranos and Gotham City approach. If you instigate a situation where your character life is in danger. Then you should automatically be giving CK permissions to the people you're messing with. This will force people to roleplay careful and thoughtful. Right now they just come in without a care in the world, because they are quite literally untouchable and believe me, these people know that and enjoy it to the fullest. 

 

 

  

Just now, Henning said:

You all have absolutely no understanding of how CK applications on this server work or the criteria they have to meet.

 

Your asking for an OOC fix to an IC problem. If you are too scared of having you or your business harmed to go to the police? That's an IC issue and is something that you need to deal with IC. You don't need OOC rules that protect you and your business, not to mention the OOC rules ya'll are asking for completely throw character portrayal out the window.

 

Your asking for rules to be put in place that would allow you to commit murder instead of calling the police and for a character/business owner that is supposed to be law abiding, that is completely bum fuck backwards.

 

 

You know what is backwards? People not roleplaying fear because they know OOCly, nothing can happen to them that will permanently incapacitate their character. This only encourages unrealistic portrayal. Absolutely nobody mentioned wanting to kill them, or said they will kill them. But the fact it is a possibility by default when you make such a hostile action will make people think twice about doing it. Which will in turn, create a realistic environment. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Martyn

[MasterChief]

Something that hasn’t been brought up yet, I think this whole situation could get really interesting with the recent incorporation of bugs & wires. With this addition, law enforcement can step up their game to catch extortionists and criminals will be forced to become smarter and more strategic with their approach.
 

Personally, I’d gladly take a CK for engaging in some deep plot to wear a wire and let PD gather information about a certain criminal group coming into my business / businesses. I think the RP would be incredible to portray the fear and nervousness of a civilian business owner wearing a wire or having a listening device in their business, at the risk of being caught. Just so they can protect their business.

 

As others have mentioned, it’s about the RP at the end of the day and not the money. A lot of these criminal organizations want you to reach out to them so that there is a story, some build up, things that can happen to make an engaging interaction. Sure, you get your bad apples and when you do that’s what the report function is for. Most of them don’t charge anything ridiculous and it won’t hurt most businesses nowadays the way the income on the server works. Have fun with them. Interact with them. Extortion is fun on both sides of you just let it unfold and build a story around your character. Hell, you may even make some new friends while going through it. 

Edited June 26, 2020 by Chief

[Chef]

8 minutes ago, Martyn said:

And why exactly would it make more sense for my entirely legal character to go to another criminal organisation to handle other criminals for me? That would still turn my legal character into an illegal character and is no different. If you go down the legal route, 

What are you talking about, turning your character from a legal one into a illegal one? Your character is a human being, you're looking at the situation way too categorically as if this is an RPG rather than putting yourself into the shoes of a living, breathing person that makes rational and irrational choices based on consequences. I really don't mean to sound rude but that thought process is quite frankly laughable.

 

What Shiro is saying is rather than being some type of jack of all trades character who will go from law abiding citizen to brutal murderer over an extortion attempt, maybe they should seek help from someone on the same playing field as the people trying to hurt you? Let the good factions actually provide you with solid roleplay and a "protection" scenario that actually gives both sides some valuable roleplay than just rushing to a violent conclusion.

 

As for your remark about people acting untouchable and what not, you're right and you're addressing the very real situation that law enforcement is not challenging these groups ICly and giving them a reason to think twice. 

[Martyn]

2 minutes ago, Chef said:

What are you talking about, turning your character from a legal one into a illegal one? Your character is a human being, you're looking at the situation way too categorically as if this is an RPG rather than putting yourself into the shoes of a living, breathing person that makes rational and irrational choices based on consequences. I really don't mean to sound rude but that thought process is quite frankly laughable.

 

What Shiro is saying is rather than being some type of jack of all trades character who will go from law abiding citizen to brutal murderer over an extortion attempt, maybe they should seek help from someone on the same playing field as the people trying to hurt you? Let the good factions actually provide you with solid roleplay and a "protection" scenario that actually gives both sides some valuable roleplay than just rushing to a violent conclusion.

 

As for your remark about people acting untouchable and what not, you're right and you're addressing the very real situation that law enforcement is not challenging these groups ICly and giving them a reason to think twice. 

My apologies, maybe I phrased it the wrong way. What I tried to say is, if my regular civilian business owner character is not going out of his way to kill people himself. I really don't see a realistic way for him to even know other criminal organisations who would handle the issue for him. And forcing every business owner to be in contact with an illegal organisation just to deal with extortionists is, and I don't mean to sound rude; laughable. There should be room for normal business owners who are NOT forced into illegal actions or being forced to make friends with criminal groups. This is quite literally how you create a Gotham City RPG server where everybody will just RP whatever helps to not be pushed into submission. 

 

There is currently no reasonable and fair way to approach the issue legally, hopefully with the addition of bugs and moles this will change. I'm very much looking forward to that and it might be a game changer.

 

However, it is still my opinion that if you consciously and willingly put yourself in a situation where you could be killed over (Extortion being a very hostile act) your character should be subject to a CK. It doesn't mean he WILL get CK'd. But JUST the possibility and knowledge of that being possible will force people to think of consequences and think of ways to more discretely, and in a smarter way extort people. (Digitally, leaving notes, forcing people to RPly pay over bitcoin, the possibilities are endless)

Edited June 26, 2020 by Martyn

[Lemonade319]

If you want to kill the guy trying to extort you that’s fine, should you have the appropriate build up, reasoning and character motive it should be fine for you to kill the guy, it’s not smart to go down this road because you’ll likely kill one, two maybe three guys but you’ll get killed by another member if that organisation. Most people would realistically know this if they had an ounce of intelligence.

 

I’m out of the loop when it comes to the IC underworld, but if there is one or a couple factions extorting the majority all across the map, it’s definitely up to the police and other illegal factions to police this. Why would an Asian faction let an Italian faction for example extort a business in Little Seoul willingly and unchallenged? Interesting RP could and I’m sure has come of this.

[Martyn]

Just now, Lemonade319 said:

If you want to kill the guy trying to extort you that’s fine, should you have the appropriate build up, reasoning and character motive it should be fine for you to kill the guy, it’s not smart to go down this road because you’ll likely kill one, two maybe three guys but you’ll get killed by another member if that organisation. Most people would realistically know this if they had an ounce of intelligence.

 

I’m out of the loop when it comes to the IC underworld, but if there is one or a couple factions extorting the majority all across the map, it’s definitely up to the police and other illegal factions to police this. Why would an Asian faction let an Italian faction for example extort a business in Little Seoul willingly and unchallenged? Interesting RP could and I’m sure has come of this.

 

And this does happen, but they know it'll just be a PK and they now have yet another reason to post a CK application on you. Because now, you killed 2-3 of theirs. But they are not actually impacted by this at all because it was just a PK. However, now you risk getting CK'd again. It's the loop illegal factions are using to provoke players. This is why if you are subject to a possible CK if you make a hostile act like extortion.  I say POSSIBLE because it still depends on your characters background/storyline if he would actually result to murder or not. But the fact that it is a possibility will make people think twice about their decisions and possibly encourage them to do the extortion anonymously, and realistically. With fear for their own well being.

 

Just because you roleplay John Gotti's nephew, doesn't mean you can't be killed just as easily as the person you're extorting. Yet, nobody seems to portray any kind of fear of this and just show up all casual in your business to let you know if you don't pay you're in trouble.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Martyn

[Trupiano]

6 minutes ago, Martyn said:

But the fact it is a possibility by default when you make such a hostile action will make people think twice about doing it. Which will in turn, create a realistic environment. 

No it won't. 

 

What will happen is instead of going to the police and reporting it we'll have a bunch of vigilant business owners who believe that the best solution to extorting is to pickup arms and kill the mobsters. Which is WILDLY unrealistic.

 

9 minutes ago, Martyn said:

People not roleplaying fear because they know OOCly, nothing can happen to them that will permanently incapacitate their character.

Your making assumptions about other peoples actions. No one is not RPing fear because they know they are safe OOCly, they aren't fearful of you because yours just a fucking business owner and nobodies called the cops yet so who exactly are they supposed to be fearing?

 

11 minutes ago, Martyn said:

And why exactly would it make more sense for my entirely legal character to go to another criminal organisation to handle other criminals for me? That would still turn my legal character into an illegal character and is no different.

Oh. My. God.

 

Maybe because the only people criminals respect are OTHER criminals. Asking one criminal organization to help solve a problem for you doesn't automatically make you a fucking criminal. Let me just give you an actual example.

 

My character owns a business, one of my employees who I'm quite fond of comes to me and says that a group of guys is trying to extort his car raffle and are asking for way too much, he also says they've been trying to cause problems for him at my business. I decide to negotiate with this group on his behalf, setting a meeting at one of they're hangouts. Turns out that this group happens to be apart of a much larger organization  that my organization has a working relationship with. Now the people doing the extortion? These are foot soldiers with very little clout, I however am an established criminal figure who happens to be on good terms with they're bosses. Because of this I am able to use my own reputation to renegotiate the terms of the extortion and lower the overall amount they are asking for. 

 

Having me negotiate on his behalf doesn't suddenly make my employee a criminal, you really need to stop looking at things as black and white. There is really no such thing as strictly legal or strictly illegal characters, everyone exists on a spectrum. Does your entirely legal character drive at exactly the speed limit and always stops at every intersect? Probably not, so is your character even entirely legal?

 

My point is, there are multiple avenues you can take. Some are less effective then others. You can go to the police and risk backlash, you can go to another criminal group and request protection from them but run the risk of them saying no, or you can attempt to standup to them on your own and face bodily harm or damage to your property. Just because you don't like the options, doesn't mean they aren't there. But instead of exploring them you've come to the forums and decided to complain about it OOCly.

[Lemonade319]

Just now, Martyn said:

 

And this does happen, but they know it'll just be a PK and they now have yet another reason to post a CK application on you. Because now, you killed 2-3 of theirs. But they are not actually impacted by this at all because it was just a PK. However, now you risk getting CK'd again. It's the loop illegal factions are using to provoke players. This is why if you are subject to a possible CK. I say POSSIBLE because it still depends on your characters background/storyline if he would actually result to murder or not. But the fact that it is a possibility will make people think twice about their decisions and possibly encourage them to do the extortion anonymously, and realistically. With fear for their own well being.

I’m agreeing with you, should you want to CK these people that should be fine so long as there’s been appropriate build up and RP leading to it, it wouldn’t be wise though as realistically you’d have some sort of idea as a legal business owner they’re not alone. 
 

If it is true (I’m not sure whether it is or not) that business owners are getting CKd for refusing to pay them I agree, it is dumb, the whole point of extortion is to make money, you’re not making any if the guy is dead.