Current State of Extorting Businesses

[Shekh]

3 hours ago, TranXify said:

I had a business on another community where I relied on the police, the criminal group attempted to burn my place down and got caught and imprisoned. They just came out a few hours later to just burn my business. Would such a thing be allowed on this community?

No, u need admin perms to burn businesses and theyd never allow it over something like that, so you got nothing to worry abt.

[Shekh]

16 minutes ago, TranXify said:

Would these mobs then be required to provide security guards during openings? It's not really convincing the business that they need "security", but more so convincing them that you'll be an absolute nuisance if you don't get paid. Business owners put a lot of effort into merely getting their businesses up and running, and a whole bunch more to keep them running. The simple act of causing brawls/fights/problems even if you have a security company contracted will end up ruining the opening. Even if you have a security company contracted, you'll be forced to pay the mobs to simply not get your openings ruined.

 

Also, money aside, is it really fair for those mobs to control how you run your business when you've put a lot of OOC effort into getting your business up and running? I've seen business owners who are forced to comply to certain terms from other illegal factions (such as avoiding certain opening times or changing policies).

Yes it is fair, if you don't want it to happen take IC measures. As for the CK thing, admins wont accept a CK application over something like calling police over a crime, unless you got someone imprisoned for life or you got someone CKed yourself. The most that will happen is you get your business attacked (not burnt down) or you get PKed at the very most. If you don't like it, then it's a completely IC issue that you should find a way to handle ingame.

[KhazarLight]

Just now, Shekh said:

No, u need admin perms to burn businesses and theyd never allow it over something like that, so you got nothing to worry abt.

Even then, burning down a business is a last resort when it comes to actually securing a business to extort. And it would have to be something that has the potential to make a lot of money to even consider going to that length to secure a racket. 

 

How I see it, if some family comes and burns down your shop it is because they tried maybe a dozen other things before they got to this point. In the real world, insurance may pay out a decent portion of the total worth of items lost, but not 100% -- that's just how insurance works. That is when the family comes back in and offers you a "loan" to cover the rest of your losses and to ensure you are indebted to them, thusly securing the extortion.

[Chef]

There's a popular belief that somehow in 2020 extortion is extinct. This is an utter farce. Take a look at any major organized crime take-down in the last decade; extortion is typically within the first of the crimes mentioned in many different indictments. Is it possibly too common in Los Santos? Yeah, I would lean to agree with that. However that has to do with the fact that the balance of civilians to criminal types is pushed too far to the criminal side which leaves us with a twisted ratio. Policing is also an issue, but that's IC. Also the city isn't as large as it is in real life which leaves a fraction of the space on the map for stores and shops to exist, and also forces criminal groups to take a majority of the map where as in real life due to the larger geography, there'd be more zones that have no occupation or "turf."

 

If you read up on LA, the extortion that happens is typically through major businesses such as the porn industry OR it's in immigrant communities within the city. Most immigrant communities stick to their own people and they're very tight knit - meaning they're going to feel more pressure from their own people to act a certain way. Criminals take advantage of that knowing that for instance: a fresh Mexican immigrant family isn't going to run to the police when their shop is extorted because they don't trust the police. Which is why they likely consider getting protection in the first place, for fear that prejudice would leave them screwed if they were ever robbed or vandalized.

 

As much as we want to, we can't genuinely replicate that in our city. The problem that I see mostly is groups going too far out of their reach to commit extortion. If there's a highly popular, well profitable business that's on a particular block where you operate? 100% it makes sense that your crew would want a piece of it. HOWEVER driving half way across the city to extort a club that's nowhere near you or your people? I suggest you read up on extortion and figure your shit out, because that's not right.

 

Ideally what would be the case is there would be more diverse civilians that would have backgrounds that align with certain groups, I'll use my own faction as an example. In Little Armenia (Morningwood) we mostly get random Caucasians (an alarming number are young females which goes back to what @Bek mentioned on the previous page) setting up businesses in an ethnic enclave. In real life, these properties would be owned by immigrants mostly of a similar background to our group. Thus, we would target our own people knowing that they'd be more likely to come to an agreement with us due to our shared heritage - and less likely to run to the police in fear of becoming labeled as something nasty in our little community. Instead we deal with what exists. There's not many avenues of criminal earning that can be done in game due to the script restrictions. Unfortunately extortion is one of the biggest earning rackets that we can rely upon in game.

 

 

 

TL;DR the city demographics are not set up in a way to realistically portray how (most) extortion happens irl. The high rates of extortion are an IC problem and unfortunately it's not going away.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Chef

[shiroq]

47 minutes ago, Engelbert said:

No, protection racket normally doesn't work like that. Yes they can hire security service, yes the owners of a club can be "coerced" into signing a contract. But standard racket works like this: Owner pays a group for protection, nothing happens unless someone from the club calls the people they are paying to, they actually need help with a brawl. It all depends on this. A single call. Someone causing trouble? You just call them, they send a car with some boys and they come and drag that idiot outside and beat him up. Which is pretty much obsolete now, especially on the server, where every club and bar has a security group (unrealistic to me tbh). If a bar or a club is extorted by a group, that actually provides protection. A bouncer or bartender usually have a phone number of someone from that group. Could be a capo or an enforcer, someone capable sending out a car with 4 guys on moment's notice.

Personally i have been doing extortion for a few months now and for me it's not about money, i don't ask for 20k a week or anything close to that, for me it's all about the roleplay. I encourage for these "civilians" to use my/factions services if they have an issue. Not going to point at anyone but if you are being harassed or simply don't like someone and you want them "beat up" why not reach out to these criminal contacts and have them do it for you. Too many people see extortion as "omg i should stay away from them" while at least in roleplay  we actually want to be called to deal with these issues because it provides roleplay.

At the end of the day no one is preventing you from calling the police and snitching, but you should be smart about it because yes you could end up cked depending on how severe the situation is. You have all the options in the world and if you don't feel like PD is going to help you then obviously your choice is clear. Also, people need to stop being greedy, all these businesses make 20k per opening at least. And being charged something like 5k a week when your total earnings are 100k a week that's nothing in compared to the roleplay that the situation can provide but you need to seek that roleplay. If the faction is not "stupid" they will gladly engage with you and see what can happen and where things can go. Just because someone is a criminal it doesn't mean they are a criminal 24/7 doesn't mean they dont do legal things or that they don't have a legal or social  life they are humans with human things to do

 

57 minutes ago, TranXify said:

Also, money aside, is it really fair for those mobs to control how you run your business when you've put a lot of OOC effort into getting your business up and running? I've seen business owners who are forced to comply to certain terms from other illegal factions (such as avoiding certain opening times or changing policies).

In my opinion as a criminal this should not be a thing, it's not how it works in real life and these "opening times" are basically mixing ic/ooc. I find it very unrealistic that someone would ask "hey dont open tonight" because in reality they are extorting you and REALISTICALLY they would be hurting their own pocket by limiting your business.

Edited June 26, 2020 by shiroq

[Martyn]

It's an unfair playing field, once an illegal faction decides to extort your businesses. You have two options, you get CK'd or you pay. If you don't pay, anything else you will do will result in your character being character killed. You go to the police? You get killed for snitching. You go take matters into your own hands? You'll eventually get CK'd as retaliation. If you haven't already been CK'd for "unrealistic character portrayal" because "You wouldn't do that to a big bad mob" criminal characters have such a hugely unfair advantage due to this that there has to be something done about this.

 

We need to even the playing field in regard to this, in my opinion if someone comes to your business to extort it they are willingly putting themselves in either danger of law enforcement or getting killed themselves. If business owners can eventually be CK'd for not bowing down to an illegal organisation then those people who attempt said extortion should also immediately give their CK permission to that business owner for KNOWINGLY putting themselves at risk. (You can hardly make a CK application on a mobster if you roleplay a regular civilian/businessman, there's 0 chance that'll be accepted)

 

Not only will this mean things are more fair on an OOC level, it will also force characters to be more sensible and responsible as to who they extort and how they do it. (You can extort anonymously too, forcing people to pay money in bitcoins etc, leaving notes behind, many ways to go about it without exposing your identity)

 

Coming to a business with 12 man deep where there's CCTV cameras and whatever, beating up the business owner and demanding money because you know you can CK them if they go to the police is simply abusing a loop hole to make your character even more empowered than he already is. The people doing the extortion risk nothing except for possibly a criminal charge in which you can simply CK the person that snitched on you which doesn't hold the same weight or value at all. 

 

If this doesn't get addressed OOCly, you will have happen what some people here already suggested. People will eventually quit roleplaying normal civilian like characters because it means being pushed into submission. You will soon end up in the same environment another specific community ended up in where it becomes Gotham City roleplay and every other person you come across is a bad ass criminal you can't fuck with. And you'll ruin the criminal scene on the server because you no longer have civilians to interact with. Everyone will be sick of being pushed into submission for simply portraying a regular bloke with a small humble business. Every person you'll come across will be billy bad ass who happens to be a serial killer too and if you stare at him the wrong way he'll shank you. Obviously, I'm exaggerating but people will definitely prefer an illegal character over a legal one simply because they're tired of being pushed around without any serious way to fight back and stay loyal and true to your characters personality and portrayal. 

 

TL;DR, if you're knowingly putting yourself in harms way, the same way as trying to shoot it out with 10 cops. Or refusing to cooperate in a robbery. You should be subject to a CK yourself. If you cannot accept the fact your character can be character killed over such a hostile action (Extortion is an extremely hostile action) then perhaps you should reconsider doing those actions. Like you would in real life too. Role play realistically and value your characters safety and life as we all should. This is what creates immersion and a more realistic environment.

 

I am speaking from a lot of experience on this matter, this is no longer an IC issue.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Martyn

[Shekh]

14 minutes ago, Martyn said:

It's an unfair playing field, once an illegal faction decides to extort your businesses. You have two options, you get CK'd or you pay. If you don't pay, anything else you will do will result in your character being character killed. You go to the police? You get killed for snitching. You go take matters into your own hands? You'll eventually get CK'd as retaliation. If you haven't already been CK'd for "unrealistic character portrayal" because "You wouldn't do that to a big bad mob" criminal characters have such a hugely unfair advantage due to this that there has to be something done about this.

 

We need to even the playing field in regard to this, in my opinion if someone comes to your business to extort it they are willingly putting themselves in either danger of law enforcement or getting killed themselves. If business owners can eventually be CK'd for not bowing down to an illegal organisation then those people who attempt said extortion should also immediately give their CK permission to that business owner for KNOWINGLY putting themselves at risk. (You can hardly make a CK application on a mobster if you roleplay a regular civilian/businessman, there's 0 chance that'll be accepted)

 

Not only will this mean things are more fair on an OOC level, it will also force characters to be more sensible and responsible as to who they extort and how they do it. (You can extort anonymously too, forcing people to pay money in bitcoins etc, leaving notes behind, many ways to go about it without exposing your identity)

 

Coming to a business with 12 man deep where there's CCTV cameras and whatever, beating up the business owner and demanding money because you know you can CK them if they go to the police is simply abusing a loop hole to make your character even more empowered than he already is. The people doing the extortion risk nothing except for possibly a criminal charge in which you can simply CK the person that snitched on you which doesn't hold the same weight or value at all. 

 

If this doesn't get addressed OOCly, you will have happen what some people here already suggested. People will eventually quit roleplaying normal civilian like characters because it means being pushed into submission. You will soon end up in the same environment another specific community ended up in where it becomes Gotham City roleplay and every other person you come across is a bad ass criminal you can't fuck with. And you'll ruin the criminal scene on the server because you no longer have civilians to interact with. Everyone will be sick of being pushed into submission for simply portraying a regular bloke with a small humble business. Every person you'll come across will be billy bad ass who happens to be a serial killer too and if you stare at him the wrong way he'll shank you. Obviously, I'm exaggerating but people will definitely prefer an illegal character over a legal one simply because they're tired of being pushed around without any serious way to fight back and stay loyal and true to your characters personality and potrayal. 

 

 

I am speaking from a lot of experience on this matter, this is no longer an IC issue.

It's not nowhere as easy to CK someone as you're saying. If you call police on someone who is extorting you and refuse their demands I garuntee that if they filed a CK request it wouldn't get accepted.

[ecstasy]

Yes, indeed.

 

Its really unrealistic how they'd go on about extorting nearly every business. A well known faction, even which has their territory situated somewhere in the city goes out all the way to Sandy Shores to extort. How's that even realistic, I suppose extortion comes handy and realistic for when your business is claimed over gang/mafia territory, yet; there should be limits for such RP coming to high end areas as suggested in the main post.

 

Imagine extorting a well known business in a rich area in real life, Police would be knocking doors instantly, though; its hard to portray that on the server where there're a few online Police Officers who are also labeled to do other RP whether on or off duty, they're not designated for extortion cases only, they have other RP to do; from simple crime solving, to pursuits, and many more.

 

Definitely hope server admins do something about it, as I've personally had very bad RP portrayal by one of the current live factions that absolutely has no concept than just go around extort every business they'd stumble upon, what's also ironic is how majority of their members already do own businesses and are quite rich; how's that a concept of realism to risk lives for a couple grands.

Edited June 26, 2020 by KPace

[Martyn]

3 minutes ago, Shekh said:

It's not nowhere as easy to CK someone as you're saying. If you call police on someone who is extorting you and refuse their demands I garuntee that if they filed a CK request it wouldn't get accepted.

 

My character runs [IHI] Integrity Holding Incorporated, dealing with extortion is a daily occurrence (On some extreme days, even an hourly occurrence).  Believe me when I tell you, yes it has already happened. And yes they will get accepted. Again, I am speaking from experience.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Martyn

[TranXify]

40 minutes ago, shiroq said:

Personally i have been doing extortion for a few months now and for me it's not about money, i don't ask for 20k a week or anything close to that, for me it's all about the roleplay. I encourage for these "civilians" to use my/factions services if they have an issue. Not going to point at anyone but if you are being harassed or simply don't like someone and you want them "beat up" why not reach out to these criminal contacts and have them do it for you. Too many people see extortion as "omg i should stay away from them" while at least in roleplay  we actually want to be called to deal with these issues because it provides roleplay.

At the end of the day no one is preventing you from calling the police and snitching, but you should be smart about it because yes you could end up cked depending on how severe the situation is. You have all the options in the world and if you don't feel like PD is going to help you then obviously your choice is clear. Also, people need to stop being greedy, all these businesses make 20k per opening at least. And being charged something like 5k a week when your total earnings are 100k a week that's nothing in compared to the roleplay that the situation can provide but you need to seek that roleplay. If the faction is not "stupid" they will gladly engage with you and see what can happen and where things can go. Just because someone is a criminal it doesn't mean they are a criminal 24/7 doesn't mean they dont do legal things or that they don't have a legal or social  life they are humans with human things to do

 

In my opinion as a criminal this should not be a thing, it's not how it works in real life and these "opening times" are basically mixing ic/ooc. I find it very unrealistic that someone would ask "hey dont open tonight" because in reality they are extorting you and REALISTICALLY they would be hurting their own pocket by limiting your business.

While I appreciate the way you are going on about doing it, from what I hear, not everyone treats it the same way. This is where my concern honestly lies, those business owners are at the mercy of how the illegal factions decide to go on about handling things. I've seen multiple businesses being extorted to change their opening times, and once they didn't comply, they got kidnapped / their shop got vandalized etc. I've also seen businesses getting extorted to not compete with certain companies/businesses through enforcing certain policies on them.

 

Additionally, not every illegal faction is ignoring the money aspect of it. I've heard of factions that charge way more for businesses that are much less profitable simply due to their nature. Also, those businesses have a lot of other expenses that eat into that 100k they might make by the end of the month. Liquor? Lease? Security? Extortion? It adds up.