Economy debate

[Hollywood]

One of the biggest reasons I stepped away from GTA:W was the economy situation. I'm not sure that much has changed but there is really very little way to engage in serious business without administrative support. 

 

The economy was largely controlled by administrators on the 'RP' side of things (business concepts, legal factions, etc).

 

Folks dont want to spend their hard earned capital on 'RP', they want equity in the form of items, property or vehicles. Simple as that. As an Attorney character for example, very, VERY few people were willing to pay any reasonable amount of money for services despite the RP and intrigue it could provide. You simply can't make a living as a LEGAL civilian without grinding jobs and/or flipping physical items, vehicles and properties.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Hollywood

[thot_banned]

2 hours ago, Hollywood said:

One of the biggest reasons I stepped away from GTA:W was the economy situation. I'm not sure that much has changed but there is really very little way to engage in serious business without administrative support. 

 

The economy was largely controlled by administrators on the 'RP' side of things (business concepts, legal factions, etc).

 

Folks dont want to spend their hard earned capital on 'RP', they want equity in the form of items, property or vehicles. Simple as that. As an Attorney character for example, very, VERY few people were willing to pay any reasonable amount of money for services despite the RP and intrigue it could provide. You simply can't make a living as a LEGAL civilian without grinding jobs and/or flipping physical items, vehicles and properties.

That's still a pretty big problem that honestly kinda boggles my mind and triggers me at the same time. Even if it's just a couple grand that they'll get back for literally playing the game people get so hung up over not getting any physical script item, and try to pay you the least amount possible or just "say they did in a /me  but not scriptly". Shit's wack. Think part of it is caused by servers like LSRP where people sit around with 40-50+ million and can just throw 25-50k or more at people like it's nothing because they get it right back, so when people are on a server like this where not everyone has even over 3m except a few that I know of, everyone just gets real stingy with their money and won't spend it unless its on a physical item they can re-coop their money from later when they're done with it, i.e car/property. I even do it to an extent, albeit not in the way of good roleplay but more-so in relation to said physical objects, cause I simply refuse to pay more than the average person would because some character tried(poorly) to scam me out of some extra money when my character knows better.

 

I don't think taking money away is the problem or fix w/e however - at least not in the way of the starter cash. Once the script grinding jobs are removed, the economy problem will balance out and people will /have/ to rely on those RP jobs to get paid, which means some of them if not all of them will have to go up a little if people actually want the economy to get to a point where it will naturally support good roleplay instead of only rewarding you if you have a car or house to give them or an entrance fee to pay. Otherwise people stay broke, and thus don't want to spend their money unless it actually gets them something they can scriptly use (and even then, will try to low-ball people so much that the other person will hardly want to waste their time with it). How/what to do to get it there however is a whole nother convo. (since that wouldn't really be balancing or fixing the economy in the context of this topic, but more-so bolstering it with the idea of making people feel more at ease with spending it, knowing they can make money back without much stress)

Edited February 6, 2019 by Smonk

[.George]

There are some good points in this thread, and while many points Zane mentioned are right, you can't just expect to join server, get a govt. contract and become millionaire overnight by RPing on power cables.
Server needs to simply address the way money enters economy ( and I'm quite sure, as matter of fact, I know they monitor almost all cash inflow in server economy. ).

One of main entry points of cash (from my perspective) are pfee bonuses. A business owner earns on average ~1200$ per person entering his club, and more than often I've seen people pay people ~1-2k per hour to work at their places. I've had nights where I'd open my bar and work myself, earning ~20k within first hour of opening.

People also not-rarely talk about money sinks. While I greatly agree with road taxes ( hey, you're the one driving super fast car ) I think one aspect admins either forgot about/don't want to tax is player death.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but upon dying you are charged what, 2000$? People should be charged more for their death, and I think this would also add a layer of actual fear RP in people, knowing that being cocky and provoking someone might actually cost them 5-10 thousand, not just 2k and loss of memory. Obviously this could be either charged or added in some insurance programs/taxes. ( I know people hate taxes )

 

Anyways, if you came this far reading my brambling and thoughts, thanks and I hope to receive your feedback.

[Hollywood]

13 hours ago, DjoleK said:

A business owner earns on average ~1200$ per person entering his club, and more than often I've seen people pay people ~1-2k per hour to work at their places. I've had nights where I'd open my bar and work myself, earning ~20k within first hour of opening.

 

This is exactly what i'm talking about. Want to make money legally? Flip cars. Work at/own a Club. Grind jobs. That's it.

 

Yes, there ARE ways to make legal cash (and a lot of it) but it's boring, stale and the RP behind it is lackluster at best. 

 

 

 

 

[Vash Baldeus]

On 2/7/2019 at 3:53 PM, Hollywood said:

 

This is exactly what i'm talking about. Want to make money legally? Flip cars. Work at/own a Club. Grind jobs. That's it.

 

Yes, there ARE ways to make legal cash (and a lot of it) but it's boring, stale and the RP behind it is lackluster at best. 

 

It is in human nature to actually receive something in return for their money. RP money is gone and you actually don't get anything of value for it, meaning your grind or what ever way of earning that money is same as doing /charity. That's how people see it, so of course comparing a real life Lawyer which actually brings results about an issue you might have and then you compare it to a game where you want to do something with your money.

 

What I am saying is, people do not feel like they get their monies worth when paying for Roleplay, that's my 2 cents on the matter.

[pogoyo]

I have been able to have success as a lawyer. You need to make your role play applicable to a service people want. Like having charges removed, or suing for damages to get more money themselves.

[Smilesville]

15 hours ago, Spenser said:

I have been able to have success as a lawyer. You need to make your role play applicable to a service people want. Like having charges removed, or suing for damages to get more money themselves. 

Nothing in the court archives indicates that this is a viable business strategy, though.

 

At present, being a lawyer seems more like a novelty than a career path - and it certainly doesn't rival receiving $2,000 per hour, on the hour. For all the work that goes into it, you'd think the benefits would match. In fact, there's really no other career path that pays comparably to a legal organization with the possible exception of owning a bar by yourself (and we need to fix that too.)

 

I proposed a solution to this problem and perhaps it's time to bring up a discussion for reworking how a business runs in addition to axing the majority of the increased paychecks the aforementioned organizations receive.

[pogoyo]

Yes, there is no "job security," so to say, for being a lawyer or for participating in many independent, player-to-player jobs, like there is with the steady paycheck of certain factions. The important thing is that a business has to offer something consequential to their customers. In the case of bars, the entrance fee covers the "experience" but  any further payment is for something consequential, like alcohol that translates into an item they receive. Things that are consequential should be taken to mean that their impact continues beyond the confines of the singular role play experience and is meaningful enough to be naturally priced by the economy: an item, a certification, or a removal of certain IC barriers. 

 

A bar is a business that provides something consequential to the customer, because no matter how the experience goes the customer can walk out with some liquor. A lawyer is similar, but in a broader sense. The role play experience revolves around the customer's goal, which is consequential, like in the case of removing charges or suing for damages. To make an economy like this more active, the goal should not be to restructure exactly how pay is provided, but to make further additions to the server that provide for the opportunity of consequential results from player-to-player role play. When the prison is added, for example, I imagine that would create more of a market for being a lawyer because it will expand the prominence of what is already a consequential aspect to the server: crime. I think if that principle were applied for multiple updates, such that development alters pieces of the server to give them consequence or expands pieces that already have consequence, player-to-player markets would adapt to fill them whenever someone is creative. And then they will pave the way until someone does it again.

[Smilesville]

4 hours ago, Spenser said:

Yes, there is no "job security," so to say, for being a lawyer or for participating in many independent, player-to-player jobs, like there is with the steady paycheck of certain factions. The important thing is that a business has to offer something consequential to their customers. In the case of bars, the entrance fee covers the "experience" but  any further payment is for something consequential, like alcohol that translates into an item they receive. Things that are consequential should be taken to mean that their impact continues beyond the confines of the singular role play experience and is meaningful enough to be naturally priced by the economy: an item, a certification, or a removal of certain IC barriers.  

Hate to quote myself, but despite the point you make, mine still stands.

6 hours ago, Smilesville said:

Nothing in the court archives indicates that this is a viable business strategy, though.

To be precise - the only award for a civil trial on record is for $60,000, the procurement of which took place over 15 days (from the first post to the last.) Assuming the lawyer took all of it (he didn't), that comes out to $4,000 a day - easily the pay of a security guard. Due to the fact that only 11 cases that have been brought before the court, I'd say it's a bit early to make the judgment as to whether or not being a lawyer is worthwhile from a mechanical standpoint. Now, if you enjoy the RP, then it's entirely possible to overlook that uncertainty - but that doesn't change the fact that it's there.

 

The prison system will absolutely be a boon to RP all around - not only will lawyers play a more important role, but I could see a whole subset of "prison RP" develop around it, and as a result the economy will shift. My primary concern for the moment, however, is business strategies - specifically, the fact that player-to-player markets cannot, without exception compete with what the script offers, whether that's via the legal organization paychecks or playing the entry fee bonus to maximum effect with an absolutely stale concept. We absolutely want to encourage the server economy to rely more on player-to-player interaction, but scripting entirely new features is a long term solution for a problem we have now. My proposition (that is, reducing legal org paychecks and restructuring how scripted business bonuses are awarded) is much easier and more immediate, but I think the proper approach is both.

 

Let's be clear, however: At present, there's very little incentive to innovate. In fact, players are unintentionally punished for doing so.

 

The government system touted as 'allowing anyone to start a business' just adds another layer of tedium to the process. While it does offer limited assistance, it most notably does not cover construction costs for a building - which happens to be the largest barrier to roleplaying a business. Rightfully so, you might say, but do we really want to punish people for trying something new? Why ask for a grant if it doesn't cover construction, and why ask for business credit if your business isn't sure to make the money back? I'm positive the community has dozens of ideas for businesses that would break up the tedium; all I'm looking for is a solution that fits more business types and lowers the barriers to entry into the market.

 

We should be rewarding players for trying to create new roleplay for others, not punishing them by requiring an inordinate investment.

[CHRISTIΔN]

If you have a great idea on how to incorporate money into your role play (that involves other players) then forward it to the admins. I don't think they'll straight out discard your idea. We need to stop talking and start doing, I don't have any interest in legal role play so I won't be doing it, but if I ever have an idea that might help strengthen my role play atmosphere (and potentially bring in some money) you better believe I'm asking the management for help. Start a conversation and be reasonable.

Edited February 11, 2019 by CHRISTIΔN