Equipable gloves system & Item and corpse DNA.

[Mistery14]

Detailed Description

 

A system that would make it so that a character's DNA stays onto whatever item they equip without gloves, temporarily (24-42 hours in-game as opposed to 36 days IRL). Be it melee weapons, firearms, or misc. items. For example, if someone is making drugs and sticks these drugs into a ziplock bag without gloves, that ziplock bag is going to be carrying their DNA, provided they aren't wearing nitrile gloves.

 

People would be unable to know whether or not their DNA is on an item at first glance of course without proper equipment. However, if a person suspects that their DNA or undesired DNA is present on an item they carry, they should be able to wash it off using proper methods. (i.e: Player A has killed Player B, and is taking measures to erase Player B's DNA off of their belongings, so that it cannot be used as evidence that would incriminate them, a knife, an item that has been taken off of Player B).

 

Corpses could also provide DNA, provided another player has interacted with it without gloves. This could encourage corpses to be disposed of more instead of being left where they are after being tampered with. Corpses that do not get interaction from another player will not have the need to be disposed of as no DNA other than the victim's will be present.

 

Not all traces of DNA are going to be usable. The system could give a value based on time, for example, the less time a person is equipping an item, the less DNA is going to be able to be yielded from that item.

 

Relevant Commands/Items

 

Mechanics:

 

- All types of gloves would be available to buy as items in the hardware stores, those gloves would then allow you to equip them

Nitrile gloves would be a one-time use item, and should be disposed of properly. (This is feasible even without needing to make gloves scripted items if it is too complicated. Players would just have to remember to put on gloves with /gloves)

 

- Corpses, instead of dropping all items on the ground upon death, could become their own "inventory" with the deceased character's belongings inside and the victim's DNA as a base sample for the DNA - I know, this sounds morbid, but in order to loot a corpse, someone would have to press Y near them. If they choose to do so without gloves, part of their DNA stays on that corpse because the inventory system would be a way to register that another player has interacted with it directly.

 

If an item is dropped/trashed on the ground, that item's DNA value will decrease overtime and at a faster rate, and as a result the more time passes, the less viable that DNA sample will be. This lessens the chances of a sample being accurate, especially if the initial DNA sample is of low quality because it hasn't been equipped/used for long or enough times.

 

How will it benefit the server?

 

- This is not about bringing any sort of biased "balance" - It's not about full-on realism either because it's a highly simplified mechanic of an already existing feature (Shell casings). This suggestion is aimed towards giving a more interesting approach to crime AND forensic RP, as there is also room for that DNA to be erased and/or tampered with, giving more possibilities to forensics RP as well as giving the opportunity for players to have their own approach as to how they want to commit crimes, if they want to be careful or careless. It's not meant to punish.

 

- Corpses would have to be disposed of if someone has interacted with them (By pressing Y on the corpse's inventory for example) without wearing any gloves instead of being left on the ground. If Player A sees Player B's corpse on the ground, and runs up to it in order to loot whatever belongings Player B had on them without gloves, they run the risk of leaving their own DNA on that corpse, this does not mean Player A will immediately be linked to the murder of Player B, but Player A could at the very least face the consequences of tampering with a corpse if no further evidence is found that they have contributed to the murder itself. This discourages rushed looting with little to no RP, whether it's a good or bad thing is not up to me to say.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Mistery14

[lostlk]

I can't see how this would even be a negative. Plenty of applications in game already require you to ICly submit fingerprints, so why not make that actually useful for something?

[Nora]

As someone who has RP'd forensics for like 2 years, I'd definitely love something like this to be implemented. The thing is that, unlike blood, touch DNA & fingerprints are a lot more complicated and many factors are to be included (the type of the surface and its roughness, if the surface has cracks, crevices, or grooves where skin cell DNA might be protected, whether it was indoors or outdoors and exposed to the elements like heat, humidity, water, UV, and bacterial growth, and of course the presence of other people and whether the surface was touched by a lot of individuals or not). Currently, we rely on admins to be the judges as we provide our approaches to the matter (with the proper techniques to properly analyze the evidence while keeping it fair and neutral for all the parties involved). Making it a script that is accessible to everyone in LAW would evidently require a lot of balancing. And at that point, I'm afraid, it really won't even be realistic anymore! 

 

Still, like I said, I totally support having more features like this, so it's a +1 from me.

Edited May 15, 2022 by $hadow

[Buster]

Definitely. Fingerprints are already a thing and something like this would be beneficial towards forensic RP. There is already a glove feature in place and to actually have a fingerprint system co-exist with it is something that we could have for the sake of realism and immersion. The roleplay opportunities for it would be endless.

[Mistery14]

2 hours ago, $hadow said:

As someone who has RP'd forensics for like 2 years, I'd definitely love something like this to be implemented. The thing is that, unlike blood, touch DNA & fingerprints are a lot more complicated and many factors are to be included (the type of the surface and its roughness, if the surface has cracks, crevices, or grooves where skin cell DNA might be protected, whether it was indoors or outdoors and exposed to the elements like heat, humidity, water, UV, and bacterial growth, and of course the presence of other people and whether the surface was touched by a lot of individuals or not). Currently, we rely on admins to be the judges as we provide our approaches to the matter (with the proper techniques to properly analyze the evidence while keeping it fair and neutral for all the parties involved). Making it a script that is accessible to everyone in LAW would evidently require a lot of balancing. And at that point, I'm afraid, it really won't even be realistic anymore! 

 

Still, like I said, I totally support having more features like this, so it's a +1 from me.

 

Definitely definitely see where you're coming from and yeah - There's all kinds of ways to get DNA and it's a very complicated thing to get right in a game if you want the feature to be realistic, it's science after all. However, my approach to the realism issue is that I go with the mindset that GTA W's goal isn't to make things entirely realistic in favor of more pleasant and player-friendly gameplay.

 

That's why I'd suggest that, if this were to ever be implemented for any reason, that the mechanic itself should be essentially watered down just like the casing and blood DNA feature already present in the game.

 

Some explanations:

 

I'm no coder and no forensic scientist, but in a nutshell, in game as I see it if you generalize DNA to 2 samples, it'd function like this:

 

Trace DNA:

 

- Player 1 collects X item without gloves by pressing Y.

- X item now has "Trace DNA of [character name]" argument at a low value, the longer/more frequently Player 1 holds or uses item X, the more DNA value increases.

- Player 1 has item X in their inventory but does not use it, DNA value goes down, slowly.

- Player 1 stores item X in a vehicle/property/stash, DNA value goes down slowly and stops at a certain threshold, the lowest value // As it's being somewhat preserved.

- Player 1 drops/trashes item X on the floor in dimension 0, DNA value goes down a little faster and is eventually reduced to 0. // Simulates weather and other things tampering with the DNA like rain, etc.

- If item X is passed along to Player 2, Player 3 or Player 4, all three without gloves equipped, item X will be contaminated with all DNAs, but as it contains multiple samples, it complicates forensic research.

 

With gloves, anything above is rendered at a null value.

 

It'd function a little bit of the same with corpses:

 

Mixing Trace/Blood DNA:

 

- Player 1 is without gloves.

 

- Player 1 kills/injures Player 2 with blunt weapon/blade, causing Player 2 to bleed and/or die. Player 1's weapon will contain Player 2's Blood DNA. // (Normally, Player 1 would get Player 2's Blood DNA on themselves, but /outfit is a thing and RP'd showers as well, so let's negate this factor).

 

- Player 1 comes back to the scene and presses Y on the corpse of Player 2 to bring up the aforementioned inventory, Player 1 looks through the list of items the corpse of Player 2 contains and takes something. Player 1 therefore leaves a low value of DNA on Player 2's corpse, if Player 1 gets a little greedy and takes more after dragging the corpse away, that value now increases.

 

- If a corpse has Player 1's DNA on it, the best and safest course of action for Player 1 to be completely safe would be to dispose of that corpse, but, still, a low-value DNA sample might still not yield any conclusive results. Again, it works on the same principle that the more you interact with it, such as dragging it or picking up items from it, the more the value increase.

 

- And again, that DNA value is reduced to 0 if your Player 1 is wearing gloves. No DNA can be retrieved.

 

I forgot to mention that DNA shouldn't be permanent, it should be able to either wear down over time due to exposure, or be cleaned up with whatever works IRL. Simple household items, fire, anything works. We want everyone to have an option and a chance, here.

 

I know you might've gotten it the first time btw, but this is more of a TL;DR for those who might not have gotten it with the original post.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Mistery14

[Vassilios]

While I would love this kind of idea, it sounds like it'd turn out with everybody wearing gloves at all times.

[Mistery14]

25 minutes ago, Vassilios said:

While I would love this kind of idea, it sounds like it'd turn out with everybody wearing gloves at all times.

 

I get the concern and I actually considered it, but then I'd use the argument that if you're wearing gloves at all times it means that you're (probably) up to no good, and not everyone is up to no good. 

 

Besides you'd probably be surprised at how many would neglect it even whilst knowing of such a feature. You could apply the same logic and principle with the bullet casings: "If bullet casings could lead people to get arrested, everybody would just pick up their casings after shooting." Yet it's not the case.

 

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but it goes to show people are still taking the risks on an existing feature while knowing it could get them found out. It's either by choice or by simple mistake, both of which are applicable if players are aware of a feature's existence OOC'ly. There'd also still the option for people to correct their mistakes if they happen to touch something without gloves by cleaning the item up, so it's not an automatic punishment and not meant to be, especially for a one-time mistake where the DNA yield would be at low value.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Mistery14

[Kari]

3 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

 

I get the concern and I actually considered it, but then I'd use the argument that if you're wearing gloves at all times it means that you're (probably) up to no good, and not everyone is up to no good. 

 

Besides you'd probably be surprised at how many would neglect it even whilst knowing of such a feature. You could apply the same logic and principle with the bullet casings: "If bullet casings could lead people to get arrested, everybody would just pick up their casings after shooting." Yet it's not the case.

 

I know it's not exactly the same thing, but it goes to show people are still taking the risks on an existing feature while knowing it could get them found out. It's either by choice or by simple mistake, both of which are applicable if players are aware of a feature's existence OOC'ly. There'd also still the option for people to correct their mistakes if they happen to touch something without gloves by cleaning the item up, so it's not an automatic punishment and not meant to be, especially for a one-time mistake where the DNA yield would be at low value.

except you can put gloves on every outfit & forget. Not the same as casings where it's time constrained & you have to do something EVERY time. 
Same way people always wear masks. 

[Mistery14]

9 minutes ago, Kari said:

except you can put gloves on every outfit & forget. Not the same as casings where it's time constrained & you have to do something EVERY time. 
Same way people always wear masks. 

 

That's true, but then what happens when it's 35°C in-game, day time, and someone is wearing a hoodie, wool/leather gloves, and sweatpants as the lightest outfit they have? Surely some outfits don't contain gloves, and if it does even on summer outfits, it's no longer a game mechanic problem it's a player-related problem, as they'd fail to adhere to the server's game temperatures. It's specifically stated in the rules that wearing outstandingly inappropriate outfits to the weather is not allowed. If it's some light outfits with light gloves at all times? Sure go ahead. But it's like wearing a mask at any given opportunity you have, it's a little sketchy and someone will pick up on it, therefore it won't be an issue for everyone but isolated cases.

 

As for the second part of this, again, I haven't seen everyone wear masks, I've seen >some< people who intend to hide their identity whilst commiting crimes wear masks. Whether people conceal their faces or wear gloves is a matter of either choice or IC negligence at this point and is no longer an OOC issue unless someone is completely unaware of a feature. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Mistery14

[Paenymion]

Supported, but even though a dev replied I can't get too excited about the idea because I don't feel it would ever happen due to objections about LEO balance.  IF a dev is actually interested in doing this for real or even something similar but a bit simpler, PD forensics would love it ofc and we'd discuss some ideas with you on what's feasible etc.

 

Mainly just some script support to avoid having to ask admins all the time about "are there prints on this or that".  They then have to sift through logs to find out names and if gloves were worn etc.  It's understandable they don't like doing that, so very few ever reply.  So yes, script support in ANY form for fingerprints would be very welcome.  If it's done right it would even be balanced because you could have moments that prints are not found when via the "admin route" they always would be.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Paenymion