Predatory Practices & RP by LEOs/DAs

[Moonsong]

For the most part, stacking charges is nothing new..especially if your character is not being co-operative and making things extremely difficult for them or just being general dickheads. If you do this and get caught, why are you surprised? There's a simple rule to follow...don't get caught, if you do maybe try and work out a deal with them to reduce charges? Being a dick ic & ooc (screaming mg, reported robocop etc) gets you nowhere. You'd be surprised what going with the flow can get you.

 

On the flip side I'll agree with this particular use of the heli, unless it's brightly lit you're not gonna see a weapon unless it's a machinegun or a shotgun from that height. Common sense should apply in these cases and it did in this case. That's what reports are for. Are some extra guidelines needed? I'd say so, yeah but restricting something to the point it's virtually unusable for the purpose it was designed for because of the actions of a few (and I say few because there aren't that many air pilots afaik) lacking common sense isn't the way to go. But it was stated that new guidelines are coming out, so we'll have to see what those entail.

 

There's always play to win mentality on both sides, let's not pretend otherwise.

[beets]

Air units 'patrolling' is stupid as hell and shouldn't be allowed. You'll catch nearly every criminal act if you just float between Jamestown, Vespucci and whatever the open businesses at the time are. It's a powergame dream and needs to be changed ASAP. Stacking charges is just typical OOC play 2 win and also shouldn't be happening. Should be changed!

[Cartoonhead]

9 minutes ago, beets said:

. Stacking charges is just typical OOC play 2 win and also shouldn't be happening. Should be changed!

As far as I'm aware and have seen during my time in the Judical branch, someone found stacking charges is dealt with pretty swiftly. Afaik, it is NOT allowed.

[pogoyo]

8 minutes ago, Moonsong said:

There's always play to win mentality on both sides, let's not pretend otherwise.

This is a reasonable stance to take and it is vested in the truth. There is always the risk of individuals' overinvestment in the success of their characters in any sphere of this game.

 

The difference is that law enforcement are designed to win.

 

There are rules and scripts in place that ensure they do, in most cases, win, which is fine and realistic. That is part of having realistic law enforcement on a heavy role play server, and having respect for the consequences they can bring down on a person or on any organized group of persons.

 

When an illegal character is playing to win, they are fighting the tide, and they certainly do not have the benefit of immense OOC safeguards in the rules and the script. There is no weapon locker an illegal character runs to after they get sent to outer space. Illegal characters also have no capacity to send their foes into detention for weeks at a time, or even permanently. They cannot stand in for Property Management and seize their foes' entire properties, vehicles and other assets.

 

Your equity of player mindset and experience argument is misapplied in this case. One side is designed to be more capable, and that's with good cause. It is sullied when the players who deploy those systems are doing so in maintenance of their own pride and in service of the success and prominence of their own character stories. I don't accuse anyone specifically of this abuse, but it is indicative of a flaw in the system's design. Without overhauling the system, the only alternative is empathetic oversight by those who oversee and manage these systems.

 

Where is it? There are many replies and touch-and-go dialogues about the problem. There are one-off situations where a bad apple is reprimanded. Time and time again, these examples spring up and there are usually half-baked justifications and dismissals to the greater problem and the "culture of triumph" that leads to privileges and systems being misused.

[AnthonyCourtney]

Let's be real here why wouldn't PD keep doing whatever they want with helis? Even after several threads and forum reports for this type of stuff (including from the creator of the script...) nobody has ever been punished with anything more than a warning, nothing has changed and the pilots still think they're completely justified and nobody's told them otherwise.

 

The LSPD is supposed to be an official faction that represents the server and they aren't being held to the standard that they should be at all when it comes to the use of air units.

 

Quote

For the most part, stacking charges is nothing new..especially if your character is not being co-operative and making things extremely difficult for them or just being general dickheads. If you do this and get caught, why are you surprised? There's a simple rule to follow...don't get caught, if you do maybe try and work out a deal with them to reduce charges? Being a dick ic & ooc (screaming mg, reported robocop etc) gets you nowhere. You'd be surprised what going with the flow can get you.

Alright bro now go ahead and explain why, in character, it's not realistic to just try to boom you down instead of being arrested if I'm running the risk of a million charges being stacked against me anyway. After all, I'm trying to follow the simple rule of not getting caught. There's a reason certain things get governed OOCly and I'm not going to waste 2 weeks of game time because some guy decided he wanted to stack a million charges.

Edited March 27, 2023 by AnthonyCourtney

[Doom slayer]

1 minute ago, AnthonyCourtney said:

Let's be real here why wouldn't PD keep doing whatever they want with helis? Even after several threads and forum reports for this type of stuff nobody has ever been punished, nothing has changed and the pilots still think they're complete justified and nobody's told them otherwise.

 

You're completely right. I doubt there'll be change anytime soon. This is just another one of those threads to raise awareness of the issue and to allow civil discussion.

[jromjeksin]

27 minutes ago, AnthonyCourtney said:

Let's be real here why wouldn't PD keep doing whatever they want with helis? Even after several threads and forum reports for this type of stuff (including from the creator of the script...) nobody has ever been punished with anything more than a warning, nothing has changed and the pilots still think they're completely justified and nobody's told them otherwise.

I still have no idea how that guy got away with just a warning. I personally think that benefit of the doubt should not be given to law enforcement roleplayers just because they have clean admin records. Everyone has a record until they are punished. If this same pilot is the person that was responsible for the initial rule changes involving LEO helicopters, he should know better. It's common sense that what he did was powergaming or even metagame if that's the argument you want to make. Walking away with a verbal warning is a joke. Had roles been reversed, a civilian or illegal roleplayer would have been sent to the dungeon. There is a double standard when it comes down to punishing people who are not LEO vs people who are LEO. For example, a gang member will likely be admin prisoned if he were shot and continued to chase and engage opposition while a LEO who does the same will just get the benefit of the doubt and receive a verbal or even admin warning. Everyone on this server should be held to the exact same standard. Until then, LEOs will continue to get away with stacking charges, abusing LEO tools (police helicopters and the camera mod), and predatory practices like pulling over every gang member in site until they stumble upon a gun or it turns into a chase/shoot-out (which is what the end result always is which is what they wanted anyway).

Edited March 27, 2023 by jromjeksin

[Tzula]

2 hours ago, jromjeksin said:

I still have no idea how that guy got away with just a warning. I personally think that benefit of the doubt should not be given to law enforcement roleplayers just because they have clean admin records. Everyone has a record until they are punished. If this same pilot is the person that was responsible for the initial rule changes involving LEO helicopters, he should know better. It's common sense that what he did was powergaming or even metagame if that's the argument you want to make. Walking away with a verbal warning is a joke. Had roles been reversed, a civilian or illegal roleplayer would have been sent to the dungeon. There is a double standard when it comes down to punishing people who are not LEO vs people who are LEO. For example, a gang member will likely be admin prisoned if he were shot and continued to chase and engage opposition while a LEO who does the same will just get the benefit of the doubt and receive a verbal or even admin warning. Everyone on this server should be held to the exact same standard. Until then, LEOs will continue to get away with stacking charges, abusing LEO tools (police helicopters and the camera mod), and predatory practices like pulling over every gang member in site until they stumble upon a gun or it turns into a chase/shoot-out (which is what the end result always is which is what they wanted anyway).

You are going to hate this response but you need to report this kind of behavior. I think the reason why there is bias is down to internal policy because what might be ok with the rules might not be okay internally i.e boxing cars as a deputy, something they are allowed to do ic but banned from doing ooc, if that makes sense?

 

As a member of DAO leadership, I haven't had any reports about us charge stacking since about two months ago.

 

For aero bureau/division, I can't comment. Players can complain as much as they want as within the rules but faction leadership can't deal with anything unless its reported with evidence.

[Doom slayer]

2 hours ago, Tzula said:

As a member of DAO leadership, I haven't had any reports about us charge stacking since about two months ago.

 

 

I included it in the thread as I believe it was an issue that should not have happened whatsoever. It might've been fixed, sure, but showing reference to it once more allows awareness into some of the practices that have been utilized previously without repercussion until recently. 

[CYCOSOCIAL]

This, without suggesting anything might be the reason you see slightly more PD air up always than SD; in SD, you're required to make a new character to be in Aero where as in PD I believe that anybody can join their Air division - on any character - without sacrificing a patrol billet/whatever. For that reason, SD air tends to be way more reactive in terms of it's people coming online for pursuit pagers/etc which is when Air is deployed. There's different cultures about how Air is used between both factions that have to be considered.

Stacking charges, especially ones on suspects that've cooperated, is fucking retarded. Always has been and always will. 

The guy complaining about ''SASD corruption'' probably needs to relax. The majority of corruption in SD isn't in public, it's done by people that have the right perms, mostly. I'd say you're more likely to see open misconduct in SD simply because of the culture and the strive to emulate the LASD. I mean; go watch videos of LASD deputies etc turning up at vulnerable/EDP calls. A solid 2/3 out of 5 times they end up shooting him dead when in LAPD they have a Sergeant micromanaging an entire team with 50% of people on less than lethal. LASD is, with some hyperbole, not as good and professional a police department as the LAPD - and people do try to emulate that in the faction once they've been in patrol for a while. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by CYCOSOCIAL