Replace the criminal points system

[Timzii]

13 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

The issue with the point system is it's entirely predictable and can frankly be gamed. You only have to worry about life in prison if you reach 30 points, something a lot of people are able to avoid while still committing ridiculous and egregious crimes. Things like motive, the details of the crime, past criminal history have nothing to do with sentencing. This "CK" style request only changes one thing, It allows judges flexibility. No longer will you have to wait till someone hits 30 points before you get them off the street, if someone commits a specifically horrible crime, boom life sentence just like IRL. PD able to put together a concrete long form investigation will actually result in a W instead of spending 3 months doing an investigation only for the people you convicted to spend 2 IRL days behind bars.

 

I don't mean to be blunt, but frankly it seems like you and a lot of other people who are against this are so because this is perceived to be easier on criminals. But the thing is, being hard on criminals isn't exactly working. The point system did not have it's intended effect, people could still crimegrind regardless it just came down to if they get caught or not. At least with this suggestion, each and every crime could have the potential of being a seriously long sentence. 

Whilst this essentially does sound better, how exactly will this work in long term in favor of the criminals trying to stick with their 'old' characters even more? Essentially you're only replacing it with another system which will put more pressure onto JSA and DA's office whose court cases already take extremely long time in my opinion.  What would, in your opinion also be the boiling point where a character can remain free or be put behind bars for life?

[Trupiano]

Just now, Timzii said:

Whilst this essentially does sound better, how exactly will this work in long term in favor of the criminals trying to stick with their 'old' characters even more? Essentially you're only replacing it with another system which will put more pressure onto JSA and DA's office whose court cases already take extremely long time in my opinion.  What would, in your opinion also be the boiling point where a character can remain free or be put behind bars for life?

 

1. The point system is straight forward, an intention design to discourage people from crimegrinding. You commit crime X you get Y points. That works fine when the lifecycle of a character is only a couple months or if you play a criminal mastermind who's also a stealth expert (A playstyle a lot of legal RPers will say is the only acceptable type of criminal).  But getting arrested is just simply a huge part of criminal RP and when you've been around for say a year your gonna end up racking up at least some points. I know of people who, had good criminal characters but after an unfortunate series of events they hit 30 points and boom, they're characters a lifer. Now I get it, commit the crime, do the time. But the life sentence via the points system isn't punishing people for the crime they committed, it's punishing them for committing crime in general. 

 

2. This does put quite a bit more pressure on DB, JSA and the DA's office and understandable people might be frustrated by that. But I look at it from a different prospective, what have these teams been missing? Actual teeth. Within the points system it didn't matter how good of an investigation DB puts in, it doesn't matter how good of an argument the DA makes, the point system decides everyones fate. The best example of this was the Martorano RICO, we had DB on our asses for 3 months building a case and while some of their key evidence did get thrown out for OOC reasons we felt really bad internally because ultimately all that 3 months did was put ten of our sixty guys in jail for maybe 3 days? This suggestion however would flip the script, each case with the right amount investigation and a good argument from the DA could theoretically get your guy thrown in jail for life or an extended period of time like a year. 

 

3. It would entirely come down to the facts of the case, the way the defendant holds themselves and basically all the other things that play into a sentencing IRL. For example, if someone is RPing a hard ass gangbanger who shows no remorse for committing murder it doesn't matter how many points they have, if they show a clear disregard for human life they'd get a life sentence. On the flipside if someone had a long criminal history and this is they're first time getting caught in several months, they could argue that they've turned a new leaf, it was an accident etc and possibly get a lighter sentence or parole. Within the current system? I could quit being a criminal at 29 points, accidentally kill someone, get charged and boom, my character is a lifer.

[Timzii]

47 minutes ago, Trupiano said:

2. This does put quite a bit more pressure on DB, JSA and the DA's office and understandable people might be frustrated by that. But I look at it from a different prospective, what have these teams been missing? Actual teeth. Within the points system it didn't matter how good of an investigation DB puts in, it doesn't matter how good of an argument the DA makes, the point system decides everyones fate. The best example of this was the Martorano RICO, we had DB on our asses for 3 months building a case and while some of their key evidence did get thrown out for OOC reasons we felt really bad internally because ultimately all that 3 months did was put ten of our sixty guys in jail for maybe 3 days? This suggestion however would flip the script, each case with the right amount investigation and a good argument from the DA could theoretically get your guy thrown in jail for life or an extended period of time like a year. 

 

I don't think Sheriff's or Police's Detective Bureau will change that much, however I'm more worried about JSA and DA having even more workload, which they struggle with already judging by certain change of rules they've introduced not so long ago. But in general I'd agree with what you've proposed in better detail than the OP of the thread, however would someone, who committed a first or second degree murder, have to have a mandatory case if the criminal points wouldn't be a thing anymore? Essentially the system you're proposing will be less criminal friendly from my thoughts, seeing that actual serious crimes would be required cases each time, whilst potentially being stuck in jail for even longer time during the case with no guarantee they would see the freedom again.

[Triple Seven]

4 hours ago, Kipps said:

Congratulations for so succinctly expressing the worst mindset on the server in a mere three paragraphs.

Why are you mindlessly arguing that all consequences are good? If your character is shot in the head over a mild insult, that's a consequence but it's not a reasonable one. Lots of ostensibly in character consequences are stupid and thus dealt with out of character - just look at the Report Player section. The points system isn't bad in character, just like a low crime rate because of robocops isn't bad in character - but they have a negative impact on roleplay quality and so are dealt with OOC.

You can mock criminal characters for not 'fitting in', and I can argue that it's hard to fit in with a bunch of British self-inserts who divide their time between esexing, clubbing and replying to suggestions they know nothing about. But none of this is to do with the original post. 

As has already been said, people roleplaying criminals are supposed to get arrested. It's part of the portrayal, but the points system is arbitrary and unfair in how it significantly affects the number of days that people need to roleplay in jail. People like you who are saying that players should just respond by being 'careful' are outing themselves as garbage roleplayers who don't play believable criminal characters, who are sometimes reckless and foolish, but versions of themselves who no one enjoys interacting with.

 

I'm not mindlessly arguing, I'm simply posing my opinion, which I am entitled to, even without playing a criminal. The IC penal code is very light in and of itself. All I ever read of people that roleplay criminals and get caught is that the jail/prison is always empty, yet no one apparently logs on to their character once in there (luckily the prison slots and a minimum amount of time required to be ingame for the punishment have attempted to combat this, I can't say if that has solved it, but I hope so).

 

The points system is a way to create lifers from development, and if a single arrest gets you to that, you'll have to consider: would this have happened in real life with the crimes my character committed? (and if not, change it, if yes: don't) So yes, being careful helps. I never said you can't be roleplaying reckless or foolish, but it comes with a higher risk of the available IC consequences. Clearly, you accept this fact when your character goes for the nuclear route. If getting caught is part of the portrayal, getting life in prison is also part of the portrayal eventually, if not immediately. This obviously has to be handled in a realistic manner and the points system is that as far as I can tell, but again, the balance needs to be realistic, so if it is not, adjust it.

 

I merely stated that criminals are (at least almost always) obvious. I sincerely hope that isn't completely true, it's just my impression. And my response has everything to do with the suggestion, as it speaks of consequences, which the points system is part of.

 

Other than that, I'm obviously not going to respond to the the baseless framing you're trying to go for in your post, it helps no one to address each other like that in this community.

[Trupiano]

3 minutes ago, Timzii said:

 

I don't think Sheriff's or Police's Detective Bureau will change that much, however I'm more worried about JSA and DA having even more workload, which they struggle with already judging by certain change of rules they've introduced not so long ago. But in general I'd agree with what you've proposed in better detail than the OP of the thread, however would someone, who committed a first or second degree murder, have to have a mandatory case if the criminal points wouldn't be a thing anymore? Essentially the system you're proposing will be less criminal friendly from my thoughts, seeing that actual serious crimes would be required cases each time, whilst potentially being stuck in jail for even longer time during the case with no guarantee they would see the freedom again.

 

Would it create more work for everyone? Absolutely. But I think the potential positives outweigh the negatives. The biggest complaint I see from detectives in both LEO factions is that investigations are worthless, three months of work to give someone a couple points and a few days in jail. Your right we won't see any immediate change but ever so slowly I believe LEO's will realize the power of this change. I think OP put to much emphasis on the fact that judges would be the ones applying for this, the way I see it these apps would be a collaborative effort between everyone in justice RP. You've got DB assembling the facts, the DA making the argument and the judge ultimately deciding if they put in the work. 

 

Your right, this would force a lot more cases to trial, but I think it's important to understand that this would fundamentally change cases. As it currently stands, going to trial is basically a formality. You commit a crime, get convicted you get X amount of points. If you have a low number of point you can just eat the charge no issue, it only forces you to really interact with the court system once you get near the lifer mark. When your stuck in jail you know this and so people just want to get on with it so they can keep playing. This just opens up each case to have serious consequences, no longer will you be able to commit a murder and be out in a few days because you had 0 points. You go out and try to act like a Narco hit squad and your going to get clapped by a judge the first time you get arrested. At the same time however, it opens up each life sentence to be fought which in turn would actually make it worth wild to stay in jail and try to fight your case. It's a real light at the end of the tunnel where as the with the point system it's just the illusion of such. 

 

[Murat]

21 hours ago, Timzii said:

Yes, roleplayed with an official faction Kkangpae in late 2020 and early months of 2021. Never got any charges and I've done a decent amount of crime there.

I don’t expect you to know the pros and cons of criminal points then, you haven’t had a character to experience these things.

 

Until you have a character that you’ve developed for months, who has gone in for a crime which has no story development, you will not know how and why the criminal points system is flawed.

[Timzii]

2 minutes ago, Murat said:

I don’t expect you to know the pros and cons of criminal points then, you haven’t had a character to experience these things.

 

Until you have a character that you’ve developed for months, who has gone in for a crime which has no story development, you will not know how and why the criminal points system is flawed.

Once again, with the proposed change which Trupiano wrote down, how would this make any different development? With the new system, you'd go to trial and potentially to life in jail after a single murder, assuming heftier charges would require a required case by a judge which decides at his own discretion what to do with you. If they sentenced you to life, off of one second degree of first degree murder, would that bright more development to you, even if the outcome would be same and potentially even sooner than accumulating the criminal points. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

[Trupiano]

36 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

The points system is a way to create lifers from development

 

Wouldn't a system that judges the facts of a crime and not just arbitrary number of crimes you've been convicted of be better at doing this though? You say it leads to lifers being created out of development but frankly this isn't true the point system is meant to target solely people who crimegrind while for the rest of us it's just an annoyance. I could commit the most brutal murder ever with 0 points and only get a few days in jail but if I have 29 points and accidently shoot and kill someone, my character gets a life sentence. 

 

43 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

and if a single arrest gets you to that, you'll have to consider: would this have happened in real life with the crimes my character committed? (and if not, change it, if yes: don't) So yes, being careful helps.

 

A single arrest would take multiple murders to put you over the 30 mark It has absolutely nothing to do with how careful you are. It doesn't even help, your promoting the narco hit squad mentality that so many people are against. Because the point system incentives people to conduct themselves that way. How you conducted the crime has no bearing on your sentence, it's purely about if you get caught or not. 

 

49 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

I merely stated that criminals are (at least almost always) obvious. I sincerely hope that isn't completely true, it's just my impression. And my response has everything to do with the suggestion, as it speaks of consequences, which the points system is part of.

 

Please explain to me how the consequences of the points system are greater incentives then the ones laid out by this suggestion. Because within the points system, there are no real consequences until you reach the 30 point mark while this suggestion would allow even first time offenders to be charged with a life sentence based on the facts of their case. 

[moD]

5 hours ago, Timzii said:

OK, but how does decent roleplay and portrayal make them immune from in-character criminal points? So, because you're in a scripted faction, which is an OOC thing, you should be immune to criminal points which you gather by committing felonies in-character? How can somebody abuse being arrested, though? It doesn't matter if you're in an official faction or an unofficial group, you still should have same consequences ICly. I've played illegally for 4-5 months and I've done crimes from murder, car thefts and robberies and never got caught. This suggestion as a whole just seems to be done by someone who got unlucky enough and got caught for multiple felonies which stacked up on his name. Just do your crime smarter rather than removing the crime points, it's literally that easy. 85% of crime done probably goes unsolved for ever, so odds are definitely on your side here, not LEO's.

OOC faction status is already taken account when a group tries to contest a faction. They are required to roleplay fear and are subsequently subject to one way CKs if they fail to abide. Additionally, being in a faction script subjects you to mandatory jail time for up to ten hours when incarcerated. This isn't something new. As for the second half of your post, I'm extremely glad that your character was preform all these nefarious acts without being caught, that's great. However, I'd advise you to read the below quote. 

4 hours ago, Kipps said:

As has already been said, people roleplaying criminals are supposed to get arrested. It's part of the portrayal, but the points system is arbitrary and unfair in how it significantly affects the number of days that people need to roleplay in jail. People like you who are saying that players should just respond by being 'careful' are outing themselves as garbage roleplayers who don't play believable criminal characters, who are sometimes reckless and foolish, but versions of themselves who no one enjoys interacting with.

 

[Trupiano]

6 minutes ago, Timzii said:

Once again, with the proposed change which Trupiano wrote down, how would this make any different development? With the new system, you'd go to trial and potentially to life in jail after a single murder, assuming heftier charges would require a required case by a judge which decides at his own discretion what to do with you. If they sentenced you to life, off of one second degree of first degree murder, would that bright more development to you, even if the outcome would be same and potentially even sooner than accumulating the criminal points. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

 

From what I understand  is that there would almost be two judges in each case where this is used. You've got the IC judge deciding if there's a real IC case for life and you've got an admin who decides if the "CK" is warranted. Additionally and what I pointed out in my first reply to this thread, I don't think the very best implementation in this is going to be perma life. I think where this would really be helpful are sentences outside of the the normal OOC guidelines, things like 3 months - 1 IRL year. Practically a life sentence on this server but at least your character gets out eventually. Anybody who's put a character inside for 6 months then comes back outside knows the server changes almost entirely in that amount of time. 

 

I get it could be frustrating to go to trial and potentially get life for a single crime but ultimately I think everyone would prefer that knowing that they were actually being investigated, people were actually trying to put them in jail. Because as it currently stands it's just basically game over when you hit the 30 mark and you know that there wasn't that much done on the LEO end, you just got caught too many times.