Mission Row & Investigative Holds

[Bauer]

1 minute ago, Sixty said:

Are there not times where regular patrol uses the investigative hold?

I've never heard of anyone outside of the Detective Bureau using them. If you've been put under an investigative holds its 99% of the time going to be because someone from the Detective Bureau requested it. Patrol staff might be the ones detaining you and putting you in a cell, but the order usually comes from DB. I say this as someone who has put a handful of people into holds during my investigations for various reasons.

[Florida]

Just now, Bauer said:

I've never heard of anyone outside of the Detective Bureau using them. If you've been put under an investigative holds its 99% of the time going to be because someone from the Detective Bureau requested it. Patrol staff might be the ones detaining you and putting you in a cell, but the order usually comes from DB. I say this as someone who has put a handful of people into holds during my investigations for various reasons.

 

That's a problem. You are detaining someone and putting transporting them to a cell. At that point they are under arrest, not detained.

[Sixty]

5 minutes ago, Bauer said:

I've never heard of anyone outside of the Detective Bureau using them. If you've been put under an investigative holds its 99% of the time going to be because someone from the Detective Bureau requested it. Patrol staff might be the ones detaining you and putting you in a cell, but the order usually comes from DB. I say this as someone who has put a handful of people into holds during my investigations for various reasons.

Is it the Detective who primarily  and directly obtained all of the necessary information to justify probable cause or was it the patrol officers and then you read their reports? Just trying to understand the process. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Sixty

[Jedai]

4 minutes ago, Sixty said:

Are there not times where regular patrol uses the investigative hold? My endgame is basically ensuring at least they are held to a standard. Simple addition would be to add an area to list probable cause on the investigative paperwork. Even if it is mainly for OOC purposes, this should still be required. As people have implied, this isn’t currently happening and it should be. That way there’s a checks and balances system to using the investigative hold.

There are not many crimes that patrol level officers deal with in the context of the server that would require a need for it. 

 

Gang Crime? Gang Unit.

Low level theft? Intelligence Unit. 

 

The patrol officer even if they come across an investigation will usually call a specialized unit who's job is to investigate or if the case is open and shut on the scene, will just conduct an arrest.

 

Anyway to your point, there isn't a need to add an area for probable cause, the MDC is advanced, the tools are necessarily there. Policy just needs an update since it seems people are just very confused and I can understand why.

[Sixty]

6 minutes ago, Jedai said:

There are not many crimes that patrol level officers deal with in the context of the server that would require a need for it. 

 

Gang Crime? Gang Unit.

Low level theft? Intelligence Unit. 

 

The patrol officer even if they come across an investigation will usually call a specialized unit who's job is to investigate or if the case is open and shut on the scene, will just conduct an arrest.

 

Anyway to your point, there isn't a need to add an area for probable cause, the MDC is advanced, the tools are necessarily there. Policy just needs an update since it seems people are just very confused and I can understand why.

Indeed. Alright thanks for the clarification. I’m glad there is some talk towards potential reason to update the policy. Pertaining back to the original suggestion, I do think it would be beneficial to have a central cell in TTCF for these holds, kind of like New York’s central booking. Would give the person more RP opportunity. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Sixty

[Bauer]

10 minutes ago, Sixty said:

Is it the Detective who primarily  and directly obtained all of the necessary information to justify probable cause or was it the patrol officers and then you read their reports? Just trying to understand the process. 

The way it usually works in my experience is something like this:

Detective Bureau Member assembles a casefile;
Possible suspect identified;
Suspect needs to be questioned/tested for GSR/etc;
APB is posted by the officer/detective to put the suspect on a hold;
Patrol finds the suspect and puts them on a hold;
Officer/Detective shows up when they're available and interrogates/tests for GSR/etc;
Suspect cut loose or arrested.

This is a general overview of the whole process, some of these things like interrogations & forensic testing can take time to get done and processed. In the case of our forensics it can take upwards of 48-hours in some cases due to the high volume of cases they receive. Although we can flag certain requests to be pushed to the top of the line (i.e. need to test a gun urgently for a suspect we have in custody, etc).

[KaythPlus]

20 minutes ago, Florida said:

 

That's a problem. You are detaining someone and putting transporting them to a cell. At that point they are under arrest, not detained.

 

You've got caught up in the over 20 posts of rehearsing the same thing that you've missed their point entirely. @Bauer has already stated multiple times that this whole system is a necessary evil to combat the fact we're not in the real world and have to deal with oddities like people actually being logged in and in the same timezone. You've missed or ignored that completely.

 

So this makes the only real issue that its not written into some official rule-book or so on. The point is, it happens and you liking it or not sorry to say, it's happening. So rather make a suggestion to change it, go through the IC route of questioning its legality — or do something that isn't endlessly rehearsing shit on repeat like a broken record player.

 

I completely understand your view point that its illegal, and I'm sure anyone reading this post does. It doesn't change how the system currently works in the server however. I'm sure you know your shit and it really seems you do, I respect it.

Edited March 26, 2021 by KaythPlus

[Florida]

8 minutes ago, KaythPlus said:

 

You've got caught up in the over 20 posts of rehearsing the same thing that you've missed their point entirely. @Bauer has already stated multiple times that this whole system is a necessary evil to combat the fact we're not in the real world and have to deal with oddities like people actually being logged in and in the same timezone. You've missed or ignored that completely.

 

So this makes the only real issue that its not written into some official rule-book or so on. The point is, it happens and you liking it or not sorry to say, it's happening. So rather make a suggestion to change it, go through the IC route of questioning its legality — or do something that isn't endlessly rehearsing shit on repeat like a broken record player.

 

I completely understand your view point that its illegal, and I'm sure anyone reading this post does. It doesn't change how the system currently works in the server however. I'm sure you know your shit and it really seems you do, I respect it.

 

What I'm asking isn't unreasonable. I understand the point of this. What I am asking is for Detectives to have probable cause before issuing an investigative hold to arrest someone for interview/interrogation. If they don't have PC they shouldn't be able to take people into custody against their will.

 

It might be a necessary evil but it can be done better for both parties involved.

[Sixty]

55 minutes ago, KaythPlus said:

 

You've got caught up in the over 20 posts of rehearsing the same thing that you've missed their point entirely. @Bauer has already stated multiple times that this whole system is a necessary evil to combat the fact we're not in the real world and have to deal with oddities like people actually being logged in and in the same timezone. You've missed or ignored that completely.

 

So this makes the only real issue that its not written into some official rule-book or so on. The point is, it happens and you liking it or not sorry to say, it's happening. So rather make a suggestion to change it, go through the IC route of questioning its legality — or do something that isn't endlessly rehearsing shit on repeat like a broken record player.

 

I completely understand your view point that its illegal, and I'm sure anyone reading this post does. It doesn't change how the system currently works in the server however. I'm sure you know your shit and it really seems you do, I respect it.

As @Jedai said, it’s simply the language of the penal code that allows it to be used too liberally. The criteria for the investigating Detective to issue an arrest warrant for the investigative hold should always fall under probable cause (specific criteria) and not reasonable suspicion (simply a detective’s gut feeling or hunch). By changing that language about the investigative hold to “arrest” instead of “detain”, it becomes much more black and white at that point. A corrupt detective, should they exist, could technically skirt around probable cause and just arrest someone based on their gut feeling since the legal criteria of “detainment” versus “arrest” is completely different. Not saying they do exist, but you get my point. 

 

As @Bauer and @Jedai have both explained in most cases, this isn’t much of a problem. It can be argued as a technicality, but to say this is something that can be challenged IC’ly is not really true being that the reason for the hold is more OOC policy than IC policy. I totally get the OOC reasoning, but the ask of this isn’t too burdensome I don’t think. 
 

Also again on the topic of TTCF I totally think there should be our own version of “Central Booking” in an area separate from general population, where the people arrested and placed on an investigative hold can actually enjoy some RP during the hold rather than be stuck by themselves in Mission Row.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Sixty

[TpRoll]

Put them in TTCF