New shank rule?

[Barbary]

6 minutes ago, Vash Baldeus said:

No one likes being housed in SHU being out of it as well.

 

And then you get people complaining about being in SHU too long and bringing it up to management.

[Vash Baldeus]

18 hours ago, Barbary said:

 

And then you get people complaining about being in SHU too long and bringing it up to management.

Yes, but if IFM & Management come out with an announcement in SADCR discord saying what new regulations regarding SHU and the more you cause trouble in the open the longer you will spend in SHU, the longer you will be denied visitation, the longer you will be denied commissary. When you specify exactly from the get go before enacting this policy about what happens when you do something, they won't be able to complain, if they do, direct them to the regulations.

 

The TL;DR is more or less the following. There are rules, both IC and OOC, you break either you get punished. Crying and saying "It's just a game" won't fly here, it's not just GTA:Online or Singleplayer, it is a Roleplay setting where your actions actively affect other characters. For your actions will come with consequences.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Vash Baldeus

[Fudge]

As much as it is a change that takes away from the individuality of the Prison system, I want to stress the importance of said roleplay inside of the prison system. If it is not blatantly obvious already, there is a program to be established. If you are outside of that program, be it ooc means (You should report this instead of oocly continuing the hostilities!) or ic means. If you do not fit in your first case of action is to PC up and get out for your own safety. The idea that this is a bad rule because of "individuality" is reaching to a specific demographic of the server that already has an outlet. If you are so concerned by your own safety inside of the Prison roleplay system, go in on another character. If that doesn't fix it, then report the situation with the obvious evidence at hand. Or accurately roleplay yourself to be placed into protective custody. That is the only hot take I have on the situation. You could say that is easy for me to say. 

 

I like the idea behind what's happened so far. The COs are the other side of this faction, here to facilitate our aggression towards eachother and develop their own roleplay around us at it's source. That's something that at the beginning is already them taking Ls in the way I see it. They have to do what we say within moderation for fear of an attack, fear of a riot or something absurd happening. See the multiple attacks on specific COs inside of the facility since it's launch. All of them deserved and developed in character, all roleplaying their injuries and having pseudo longevity and even some developing change from their actions. I believe that as soon as shanks are in every roleplayer that can get them's hands, that entire aspect and respect of each side of this system's roleplay goes immediately out the window. If some Ex-SD or current COs could comment on my interpretations I'd appreciate it. Personally I think that part is/should be obvious to anyone reading this message that has roleplayed inside of TTCF for the last year alone. 

As everyone who has had a hand in this change has said, this is something that is a trial run. Five shanks were given out in the beginning. This means that there are and will be more if it is necessary and the roleplay requires it. I want to go over the process of creating these shanks so that everyone is aware, laying it out evenly.

 

Step 1: A character comes up to you, be it IC or OOC and asks for permission to get a shank. You agree or disagree.

 

Step 2: If you agree, that character goes off themselves to create that shank. They do the roleplay necessary and send you the screenshots that you can send to the handling admin, that process from there on being exactly the same as the old one. These characters will then have the shank spawned into their inventories as if they created the item themselves, fully keeping the immersion while taking the workload off of IFM and putting the trust into the faction leaders that facilitate the roleplay that populates and takes over the majority of the system as a whole. Four different factions with an eventual Norteno side of it. Already 20 shanks floating around somewhere, or the ability to have this.

 

Step 3: That shank is spawned with a number of uses, if you are to keep this unique item throughout the entire month - You have to take any hit with it strategically. You are not just using a shank to make another one, you are using it and scared of it breaking. Or even worse a CO taking it from your person. From there on, you or your faction is down a tool. This will naturally create fear roleplay and facilitate less outright unnecessary race riots that end with every side angry. Including the COs that are the ones who make this place alive. Without them, where would our yards and other activities be? I remember eight months ago. We had 2 yards in one week. The damage of the shanks is fine, it will make them last longer and the moderation will still last.

 

I'd say to the arguments that say to heighten punishments, make people suffer in-character for their actions and anything of the sort - You would rather spend two OOC weeks inside of the SHU than have less stabbings per month? We're not talking about Zero stabbings, here. There are 20 shanks in this facility. That means 20 people who at anytime could hand a shank off to any person, for whatever they deem fit to do. Within moderation. As an example, you only have 15 hits with that weapon. That means 3 kills or so, give or take Drug HP. Before you get those three kills, your faction also has the ability to lose your shanks by way of CO intervention. Either way, these are two things that practically force a person to OOCly roleplay the fear necessary that should be given out of respect to everyone that roleplays inside of this scene, guards and the like. Look at how many people interconnect with each other in this to make this place as fun as it is right now. 

 

If the number of shanks being gone before the end of the month is an issue to you or your faction, I'd offer an alternative. What if the number of shanks replenished every week instead of every month? That way we could keep it at five per, at all times. No more. I'd say right now we would be safe enough to up it to seven and prevent the roleplay that we need- Let me remind everyone, yesterday's race riot involved five shanks. From both sides of the fight. Almost immediately. This is the problem with Twin Towers Correctional Facility and will be the problem with this Correctional Facility. This will eventually cause people to not want to roleplay here anymore and we will eventually have Dclass and Emptygood inside of here 24/7 like how TTCF was for the last two months. You cannot tell me I am wrong.

If it is such a necessity for the people that are outliers to the four main factions inside of the facility, make it a special request section. Put it up to a count of time inside of the facility. If that character is inside of the prison for more than three days scriptly when they are placed inside of the facility, give them the ability to request a weapon of protection under no affiliation to the main factions inside of the facility. Put that backing up to all four prison faction leaders if IFM feels like it can't accept a yes or no request for a character to have a specialized permission to get a shank inside in a timely manner, then we can go to the administration team ourselves if we suspect foul play of the ruling system and handle it specifically. it could use the ticket system for a special requests section inside of the public IFM discord. We are in the beginning of the Prison, there is still time to make rules and adjust when necessary.

 

I think this system is the best to keep the future of this scene alive just how it is right now for the remainder of it's life, we just have to sacrifice the mentality we used to have as a community to make the change that should be seen. 20 - 30 shanks in the facility is a shit load. It is up to you to facilitate the roleplay necessary to get your own from your superiors or neighbors to get what you need done. In my professhhional opinion. 🤓

 

I'd also like to stress after this long winded message that I am completely open to any change. As long as it is fair and everyone is happy with it. I am not stuck in this mentality.

 

Sources: Dude trust me

 

[Bandit.]

Some good and thought provoking comments made from everyone. I think the prison community should be the ones with the weighted opinion here but hearing outsider opinions have opened other things I haven’t thought of. In the end I just don’t want to see shanks consolidated to just one group that’s in charge. 
 

 

[blu]

 Prior to the shank wipe, literally /everyone/ had a shank. 

From a realism standpoint, I can see you being allowed to make/have one, but not every single inmate should/would want to run around with a shank. There are very heavy consequences to being caught with one, but in-game punishments don't do it justice. At the current moment (most) inmates have 0 fear and do not care about IC punishment, they get right back out out the SHU and continue where they left off. Although this is an IC issue, it's also a OOC character portrayal issue. The prison cars should be doing more to police this behavior across the entire prison, checking those who cause problems for the pod, that's not really happening either.

 

I'll say this - inmates should be focusing more on beating someone up rather than stabbing them over every little incident. When someone's getting stabbed, you're going to hear them screaming out which /will/ attract attention. Adding to this, there have been many times when inmates have been jumped and COs never found out about it for up to a week's time because beatings can be done fairly silently and out of the view of Correctional Staff.

 

My opinion is, I don't believe DM/Poor reason is enforced nearly as strictly inside of the server's jail/prison; this is a major issue pertaining to the shank usage. Saying this, we should get to the root of the problem and not avoid doing so by limiting the tool used in the process.

 

 

18 hours ago, DLimit said:

To be fair, there isn't a lot of developing going on when half the rioters get PK'd by bleeding out. I've seen many riots where it had ended that way. I personally think that shanks should be easily accessible, but consequences should be harsher. Treat SHU like the actual SHU, and limit visitation & parole and other privileges (not Rights) inside the prison. 3 days in seg over a murder is such a light sentence. Create a powerful deterrence for people to conduct their murders undetected, or with a lack of evidence.

I'll agree with what DLimit said here, but once again nobody takes the SHU or IC punishment seriously because they think it makes their character harder. Not to mention people can just AFK/log out to avoid roleplaying all together, there's no real punishment. The SHU already has a lack of privileges', but we're looking into more ways to punish inmates who commit infractions.

 

 

I'll say what HappyPancake said was extremely accurate as well. Inmates would complain about the lack of RP in certain areas and not having enough guards on, but nearly every RP scenario was cut short by a stabbing occurring the moment 2+ guards got online. This wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't an every day occurrence, as the ones who take time out of their day to get online for the situation to happen in the first place end up having to give up multiple hours of their time to roleplay the aftermath and investigation of the scene - which almost always leads to nothing being done at all.

 

12 hours ago, Ae said:

Bring back the availability of shanks, but also ramp up inmate- and cell searches, give COs the chance to search both for weapons/materials if not already a thing.

 

Stabbing takes place? Pod-wide searches carried out.

Something that could be turned into a weapon is missing? It has to be somewhere in the facility, searches are carried out.

Somebody makes a bad move without getting a go from their respective CAR and gets everyone searched? Just creates more roleplay between inmates.

 

This way if the stabbings go out of control, the COs can directly play part in reducing that.

We've tried this in the past too, it's never led to anything because inmates are allowed to roleplay the shanks being elsewhere. "Oh I roleplayed giving it to so and so", "No, it's hiding in the pod somewhere", "It would be in a random cell, don't remember which one". We've done numerous pod-wide searches, it only leads to people logging off to avoid losing their shank and facing the consequences. ** This will change due to the new cell stashing feature. ** That doesn't mean I don't agree with you, I do. With this new facility in place we'll be doing a lot more to play our part in this mess by doing exactly what you've said already, especially since we've got units of our own who's job it is to do just that.

 

Closing,

The SHU is not a punishment, people just log off or AFK their sentence. There needs to be a reason for people not to commit further crimes.

I don't think limiting an item someone could make ICly is the correct solution, but there needs to be more done to police the /use/ of the shanks on both an IC and OOC level. This involves Custody, the Car leaders, and Server Administration to work together to come to a solution that's fit for everybody.

[Jeroen]

I had been thinking of creating a prison character or possibly a Corrections Officer. After reading in this thread about the frequent stabbings, how they disrupt virtually every event in the prison, and the extensive time they consume, yet seeing many are adamant about retaining their shanks, it has me rethinking. It's steering me towards investing my time elsewhere, I'm not interested in every scenario devolving into a violent stabbing.

[Vash Baldeus]

9 hours ago, blu said:

I'll say this - inmates should be focusing more on beating someone up rather than stabbing them over every little incident. When someone's getting stabbed, you're going to hear them screaming out which /will/ attract attention. Adding to this, there have been many times when inmates have been jumped and COs never found out about it for up to a week's time because beatings can be done fairly silently and out of the view of Correctional Staff.

The bigger issue is the way to obtain a shank more than the beating, so far that's how things were done in the new prison. Even so, in certain prisons, in real life if an inmate causes trouble to the pod by bringing CO's to raid the pod, it disrupts the activity of the gangs in turn said inmate can be at odds with these gangs. Most gang control Shanks or at least try to keep shit civil and not out in plain view of the CO's.'

 

The issue is the trial-system was to lock it behind factions where a non-fully affiliated inmate can not obtain a shank if they wish to do so without having to jump hoops with faction to get it.

[Barbary]

In most prisons, disruption is punished extremely both by law enforcement and criminal elements. This isn't real life, it's not even a caricature of it. Because the goals of prisoners in real life does not match the goals of prisoners in game.

 

Let's be honest, the biggest problem is that the criminal economy on this server is, has been and will continue to be fucked.

 

In real life the end-goal for prison gangs almost always revolves around money. Old heads in jails tend to focus primarily on lining their own cash reserves and will actively unify to curbstomp threats to that cash flow, even within their own circles. But in the prison, money doesn't matter. Drugs matter to a lesser degree. But shanks? Shanks are like guns, they've become the real measure of currency. Weapons continue to subsume and utterly dominate the market share value and the consequences it's had on not just the prison, but RP on the server as a whole is damning.

 

Gonna be honest I've come to believe that unless the server as a whole has a major economic overhaul, we're fucked to perpetuate this cycle of Punisher-esqe hyperviolence and burnout.

[The Plug]

I don’t think there’s nothing to be done about the violence other than handing out heavier sentences but obviously there’s gonna be lifers doing all day like IRL who don’t give a fuck about extra time. Honestly any character that’s an active gang member especially a Sureno, Norteno or Wood/Skin won’t give a fuck about extra time as they literally aren’t allowed to gaf. If The Eme, The NF or The AB tells you to go, you go, or you’re next and that’s that. From level II and even on level IV prison yards (the higher level prison yards typically have less brazen violence but it’s all metal. When it cracks off it’s gonna be at least 1 homicide possibly many more) mfs are getting off on mfs. More so in the past with the End to Hostilities in the states. But it’s different from pen to pen and States to Feds.
 

The only kind of violence that’s depicted unrealistically from what I’ve heard is some of the attacks on the COs. Unless the big homies specifically point out a CO to get hit as retribution for their actions or lack of respect of the made guys’ station, then hitting a CO is an absolute hell nah. Cuz whoever does that or orders it is opening themselves up for retaliation from the COs. Like Barbary and others have stated, that’s gonna fuck up drug dealing and other criminal operations inside of the facility. But on the flip side you have jcats or noobs non RPing fear of the STGs/gangs. They don’t RP fear or injuries from beatings so there’s only one way to deal with that. 
 

I haven’t walked the new yard on any char yet but the homies are saying there aren’t enough shanks to go around. If the players holding your facs’ shanks are offline or weren’t able to pass it off, you’re basically at a strategic asymmetrical disadvantage IC due to OOC reasons. Obviously wouldn’t be an issue IRL. And if shanks are being treated like guns were on the outside then it looks like the best course of action would be to raise the number of filleros facs can get. Especially large factions like La Eme and The Brand. La Eme is the most dominant group walking the yard at any prison they run or down South. New Folsom, etc. However up north like San Quentin, Salinas Valley, etc the NF are running the show. 

[Power]

On 10/18/2023 at 6:26 AM, Barbary said:

In most prisons, disruption is punished extremely both by law enforcement and criminal elements. This isn't real life, it's not even a caricature of it. Because the goals of prisoners in real life does not match the goals of prisoners in game.

 

Let's be honest, the biggest problem is that the criminal economy on this server is, has been and will continue to be fucked.

 

In real life the end-goal for prison gangs almost always revolves around money. Old heads in jails tend to focus primarily on lining their own cash reserves and will actively unify to curbstomp threats to that cash flow, even within their own circles. But in the prison, money doesn't matter. Drugs matter to a lesser degree. But shanks? Shanks are like guns, they've become the real measure of currency. Weapons continue to subsume and utterly dominate the market share value and the consequences it's had on not just the prison, but RP on the server as a whole is damning.

 

Gonna be honest I've come to believe that unless the server as a whole has a major economic overhaul, we're fucked to perpetuate this cycle of Punisher-esqe hyperviolence and burnout.

The hyper violence will always be an issue people RP servers will always be an outlet for people to live our their movie fantasies and there is no real consequence to IC violence. You get sentenced to life? Name change and just go back at it again. Weapons have so much power because of managements need to have this communist level top down management of ever aspect of the economy. It makes things like weapon more scarce so when so one does have one they are in a even more powerful position tilting the scales in their favor. I know dudes who have gone to State lock ups actually one of the dudes was a guy I met on a SAMP RP server. He told me his first few days there he saw someone get murdered. Hyperviolence in prison at least is a feature not a bug but its getting treated like its a bug.