Enforcement of RULE 17 - Advertisement spam

[knppel]

14 minutes ago, mj2002 said:

Instruct administrators to pro-actively look at advertisements that are breaking the rules (including spamming)

Pro-active enforcement is the only way to change the general stance of how players approach something.

 

Letting things happen until exemplary cases are reported and sanctioned (which, just on a sidenote, tends to be unfair if it happens that way as "everyone else gets away with it" and this is in fact correct), is again reinforcing the current player behaviour.

Not just when it comes to the amount of ads but also when it comes to content, say escorting.

 

There is one significant different why with advertisement rules this can work:

Ads are fully transparent, and even logged on discord.

 

Unlike other rulebreaks, say questionably killing someone, metagaming or common courtesy, advertisements are always logged. Consequently, there is never a lack of evidence:

To put up an ad I need to be ingame, logged in as my character.

 

Relying on players to report rulebreaks is the best solution for cases that might not be simply evident- say if I allege deathmatch, I'm supposed to provide proof for my char getting attacked, as well as explain why I think the offending party (if I know them) had no reason to do so.

 

With advertisements on the contrary, all evidence is publicly available to anybody (including administrators).

Thus, pushing the burden of rule enforcement back to players here is both inefficient: it needs at least two people to enforce 1 player's rulebreak, despite literally no investigation being needed and evidence being already available in the advertisement list as well as the discord log.

 

This is why rulebreaks that document themselves should not be down to players to report first.

If the staff team is fully aware rules are being broken on a wide scale, them cracking down on it on their own without us first having to point fingers at singled out cases is what should happen.

 

 

[Miami]

Never had an issue with them, tbh. /togad and then being in a different section on the UI helps. I barely ever go to the events and company ads tabs because they’re all on the map anyway.
 

It’s not that deep. Partners get 5 minute ad timers so it would suck to tell them they’re not allowed to use it. 

[Alys]

In regards to making /ads and how /createinformationmarker works, after you make 1 /ad you should be locked behind that one /ad you made for 24 hours to avoid repeated spam by businesses.

[Shaderz]

The crucial question that we should be asking pertains to the definition of spam. How should we classify it? Can we consider an advertisement recurring every 10 minutes as spam, or should it be narrowed down to 5 minutes? The existing rules fail to provide explicit clarity on this matter, thereby creating a gray area where people, including admins, must exercise their own discretion when taking action. Consequently, enforcing a standard for spam becomes inherently challenging due to its inherent ambiguity.

Personally, I do not think this is overly problematic. The prevalence of spam has notably diminished ever since the new ads menu was implemented, and it no longer inundates the chat. This menu is only accessed at the player's discretion, ensuring that ads are not forcefully imposed upon them.

However, a strong point has been raised concerning the fact players pay for this, and I believe this aspect holds considerable weight. It's worth acknowledging that certain inconsistencies may arise within the rules as a result of this, as mentioned before. If the general belief and consensus within the community lean towards regarding posting an ads every 5 minutes as spam (bearing in mind that I am not claiming it is), the provision of premium packages with extensive cooldown intervals between ads may encroach upon the threshold of what is considered spam. On this particular point, I agree with the OP, as it requires attention and resolution.

Overall, I understand that this matter may be annoying to certain people, especially business owners seeking to promote their businesses, who frequently encounter others engaging in what they perceive as "spamming" in the ads section, but honestly this hardly qualifies as a significant issue. The truth is that you are only subjected to ads spam if you willingly let yourself be, as the option to disable ads is always readily available.

[Koko]

If the /ads section is 90% your ad, and you have a blip up that you're refreshing, you posting every 5, 10, however many minutes isn't doing much other than drown out every other ad on the screen in dumb white noise. Users of the /ad channel already know you're open. Also if you have the ability to do 5 minute ads, you already have a blip on the map + you appear on the open businesses menu (the main ways people quickly locate open businesses). Filling the interface with repeat, consecutive ads is definitely SPAM, and that you can do something doesn't mean it's the best look or the most mindful thing towards the rest of the community.

[Kappaurel]

5 minutes ago, Koko said:

If the /ads section is 90% your ad, and you have a blip up that you're refreshing, you posting every 5, 10, however many minutes isn't doing much other than drown out every other ad on the screen in dumb white noise. Users of the /ad channel already know you're open. Also if you have the ability to do 5 minute ads, you already have a blip on the map + you appear on the open businesses menu (the main ways people quickly locate open businesses). Filling the interface with repeat, consecutive ads is definitely SPAM, and that you can do something doesn't mean it's the best look or the most mindful thing towards the rest of the community.

 

Exactly the point.

[Shaderz]

38 minutes ago, Koko said:

If the /ads section is 90% your ad, and you have a blip up that you're refreshing, you posting every 5, 10, however many minutes isn't doing much other than drown out every other ad on the screen in dumb white noise. Users of the /ad channel already know you're open. Also if you have the ability to do 5 minute ads, you already have a blip on the map + you appear on the open businesses menu (the main ways people quickly locate open businesses). Filling the interface with repeat, consecutive ads is definitely SPAM, and that you can do something doesn't mean it's the best look or the most mindful thing towards the rest of the community.

 

I understand your perspective, but the crux of the matter lies in the fact that people willingly pay for the privilege of posting ads at a more frequent rate than others, which is entirely justifiable. If there's anyone to blame for this, it's not the players who avail themselves of this feature, and which they have paid for, but rather with those who enable and facilitate it. It's a classic "don't hate the player, hate the game" case.

Also, the notion that users of the /ad channel are already aware of open businesses doesn't imply that they should be prohibited from posting ads as frequently as they desire, as long as they respect the cooldown set in place, which they do because it's script-wise impossible not to. Take Coca-Cola as an example, a widely recognized product available in countless retail stores regardless of where you live. Yet, it is not uncommon to come across a Coca-Cola ad on a daily basis, whether it is on TV, newspaper or online. In essence, there is nothing wrong with reminding players of an open business and actively encouraging them to visit.

While you're entitled to hold the belief that this approach may not present the most favorable look to oneself or show consideration for others in the community, I could just as easily say the contrary, and that it is indeed mindful and not the most unappealing strategy. Ultimately, our views are subjective, and neither of us can be definitively labeled as right or wrong, which further underscores the need for clearer rules delineating what actually constitutes ad spamming, as the word itself is quite ambiguous. 

[Jeroen]

6 minutes ago, Shaderz said:

but the crux of the matter lies in the fact that people willingly pay for the privilege of posting ads at a more frequent rate than others, which is entirely justifiable.

Afaik before the whole new /ad system got deployed, you couldn't post the same ad twice in a row even if you had a lowered cooldown. Not sure if that is still there, but if it is, this is a hint to not do the same ad over and over again, but maybe advertise different stuff.

Such as "Selling an eagle in the desert." or "I've lost my car key, need to find a lockpick set.".

 

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should make /ad a pain in the ass to browse.

[Koko]

16 minutes ago, Shaderz said:

 

I understand your perspective, but the crux of the matter lies in the fact that people willingly pay for the privilege of posting ads at a more frequent rate than others, which is entirely justifiable. If there's anyone to blame for this, it's not the players who avail themselves of this feature, and which they have paid for, but rather with those who enable and facilitate it. It's a classic "don't hate the player, hate the game" case.

Also, the notion that users of the /ad channel are already aware of open businesses doesn't imply that they should be prohibited from posting ads as frequently as they desire, as long as they respect the cooldown set in place, which they do because it's script-wise impossible not to. Take Coca-Cola as an example, a widely recognized product available in countless retail stores regardless of where you live. Yet, it is not uncommon to come across a Coca-Cola ad on a daily basis, whether it is on TV, newspaper or online. In essence, there is nothing wrong with reminding players of an open business and actively encouraging them to visit.

While you're entitled to hold the belief that this approach may not present the most favorable look to oneself or show consideration for others in the community, I could just as easily say the contrary, and that it is indeed mindful and not the most unappealing strategy. Ultimately, our views are subjective, and neither of us can be definitively labeled as right or wrong, which further underscores the need for clearer rules delineating what actually constitutes ad spamming, as the word itself is quite ambiguous. 

 

This is not good use of the /ad channel regardless, the point of 5 minute cooldowns on ads is the hypothetical case of keeping your ad visible when there's a plethora of ads going on in rapid succession, not to spam a chat window and lacking the common courtesy to let other people's ads not get drowned in a sea of the same one.

 

That you've paid for a particular privilege and that you should use it to its largest extent even when unnecessary are two separate things. Nobody's contesting the fact that people paid for the right for 5 minute ads, they're (meaning whoever is doing this) just generally being pretty inconsiderate and are using their allowance to spam a message that does not need to be spammed. Our own chat buffer in-game is already limiting how many messages you can send per second, yet I doubt anyone is going to argue the case that spamming the chat is subjective or not possible because there's a short chat limiter in place.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Koko

[Shaderz]

3 minutes ago, Koko said:

 

This is not good use of the /ad channel regardless, the point of 5 minute cooldowns on ads is the hypothetical case of keeping your ad visible when there's a plethora of ads going on in rapid succession, not to spam a chat window and lacking the common courtesy to let other people's ads not get drowned in a sea of the same one.

 

That you've paid for a particular privilege and that you should use it to its largest extent even when unnecessary are two separate things. Nobody's contesting the fact that people paid for the right for 5 minute ads, you're (meaning whoever is doing this) just generally being pretty inconsiderate and are using your allowance to spam a message that does not need to be spammed. Our own chat buffer in-game is already limiting how many messages you can send per second, yet I doubt anyone is going to argue the case that spamming the chat is subjective or not possible because there's a short chat limiter in place.

If I understand correctly, you suggest that if there are no or very few active ads being posted, it may be inappropriate to post your own ad even after the cooldown period has lapsed. However, if there is a substantial presence of other ads, it might be deemed acceptable to post yours after the designated 5-minute interval to ensure its visibility to others. This solution seems reasonable in theory, provided we can establish a clear demarcation between what constitutes an objectively excessive number of ads and what does not. Unfortunately, it's a line that is difficult to draw definitively. 

I'd argue that due to the continuous influx of players logging in and out every minute, it may be necessary to repeatedly post ads if someone wishes to consistently attract players to their business. While I cannot provide precise statistics, I wouldn't be surprised if approximately 50 players joined the server every 5 minutes, particularly during peak hours. Drawing from my personal experience as a former player running a business, it was quite common to open it with around 300 players online, only to witness a significant surge to around 600 or more within a span of two hours when I closed, thereby doubling the initial count, and unless these players that just logged in check the business map (which often doesn't work due to blip bugs), ads become the sole means by which they can ascertain whether a business is open, which is why it becomes very important to persistently disseminate ads in order to maintain visibility and attract players.