Updating rules and perception around shooting in public areas / daylight / or near cameras

[maramizo]

3 minutes ago, Blowin' Hollows said:

 

That's breaking the rules— report them. Why does your one shitty experience have to punish the 90% of the illegal role play community that puts a huge amount of time role playing and developing their characters?

 

I could easily say the same about legal role players, being a legal role player I've had some of the most sub par role play dealing with legal role players that I have seen on this server, but you don't see me witch-hunting legal role players at every given opportunity because of a suggestion that will merely benefit their scene.

 

Plus, with nearly 1000 hours on this server I think I've been robbed twice, maybe it's just you?

1200 hours total on the server, can confirm, never been robbed. In fact, most people I know don't even want to rob because it's unrewarding, lol.

[Sixty]

Not many here seem to grasp the bigger picture and that is server health/balance between legal and illegal players. Some people enjoy legal role play. Other people enjoy illegal role play. Some people enjoy prison RP, other people hate prison RP. There are some areas of the server where exceptions have to be made for one side or the other in the interests of overall balance.

 

If the reigns were eased up for criminal activity the way you're suggesting, this would eventually become and cops and robbers server where there's not enough cops to handle the illegal side. Many of you cite reasoning for your suggestion because its realistic in LA and cite that "crime doesn't sleep". We're not in real life. We don't have thousands of police officers standing at the ready patrolling the streets to combat crime 24/7. People have real lives. There must be a balance. You'd drive away a lot of legal role players. The situation with poor illegal RP (not calling out good illegal RP because there is definitely a fair amount of it) is already overwhelming and not being taken care of. It would only get worse. Whether or not that seems like a good reason to you really doesn't matter. That's the reality. Server balance is paramount and easing up further and letting crime run rampant would simply devolve the server into something that the GTAW administration obviously doesn't want it to be.

 

You want realism to commit crimes whenever you want because it makes sense IRL? Then let's start applying that realism to prison. No more 3X speed up in-game. No more 1 day sentences. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It makes sense IRL that criminals get punished when a crime is committed. Many people will now chime in and say, "I don't want prison RP forced on me". Well guess what? A lot of legal RP'ers don't want illegal RP forced on them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week either. Do we get to use that "don't force that RP on me" excuse too? Nope.

 

At the end of the day, it's supposed to be a game. There are not just illegal RP'ers. There are not just legal RP'ers. There must be a balance. That means certain things must not be 1:1 with real life and this is one of them. Sorry.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Sixty

[maramizo]

2 minutes ago, Sixty said:

Not many here seem to grasp the bigger picture and that is server health/balance between legal and illegal players. Some people enjoy legal role play. Other people enjoy illegal role play. Some people enjoy prison RP, other people hate prison RP. There are some areas of the server where exceptions have to be made for one side or the other in the interests of overall balance.

 

If the reigns were eased up for criminal activity the way you're suggesting, this would eventually become and cops and robbers server where there's not enough cops to handle the illegal side. Many of you cite reasoning for your suggestion because its realistic in LA and cite that "crime doesn't sleep". We're not in real life. We don't have thousands of police officers standing at the ready patrolling the streets to combat crime 24/7. People have real lives. There must be a balance. You'd drive away a lot of legal role players. The situation with poor illegal RP (not calling out good illegal RP because there is definitely a fair amount of it) is already overwhelming and not being taken care of. It would only get worse. Whether or not that seems like a good reason to you really doesn't matter. That's the reality. Server balance is paramount and easing up further and letting crime run rampant without proper IC reasoning would simply devolve the server into something that the GTAW administration obviously doesn't want it to be.

 

You want realism to commit crimes whenever you want because it makes sense IRL? Then let's start applying that realism to prison. No more 3X speed up in-game. No more 1 day sentences. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It makes sense IRL that criminals get punished when a crime is committed. Many people will now chime in and say, "I don't want prison RP forced on me". Well guess what? A lot of legal RP'ers don't want illegal RP forced on them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week either. Do we get to use that "don't force that RP on me" excuse too? Nope.

 

At the end of the day, it's supposed to be a game. There are not just illegal RP'ers. There are not just legal RP'ers. There must be a balance. That means certain things must not be 1:1 with real life and this is one of them. Sorry.

TL;DR allowing shootouts at IG morning time would "turn the server into a CnR".

 

Factually untrue. Don't think I need to dwell on an explanation on how false this is, but if you'd like to hear it, let me know.

[Sixty]

19 minutes ago, maramizo said:

TL;DR allowing shootouts at IG morning time would "turn the server into a CnR".

 

Factually untrue. Don't think I need to dwell on an explanation on how false this is, but if you'd like to hear it, let me know.

I don't think I added in another point I meant to make. IF the shooting makes perfect IC sense with good reasoning, sure. I respectfully disagree with the sentiment about crime not needing a good IC reason, but everyone is allowed to have an opinion. No hard feelings. I'm not hating on people who follow the rules and play it right. I'm saying the issue will simply get out of hand because of the people who don't. Sure, you can report them all day long but that excuse been overused since day 1. Obviously not enough people report to fix the problems or there would be less problems or more direct server action to tackle the issues.

 

1) If you want IRL realism with shoot outs and crime, are you okay with real life prison? Real sentences? No 3X speed up? If you want realism in one area, we should equally apply it on the other side of this equation as well. None of this, "I don't want that forced on me." Legal RP'ers don't get to use that excuse anywhere, to my knowledge. Getting robbed? "Oh I don't like that RP forced on me." Yeah that would never happen.

 

2) There isn't enough IC or OOC manpower to handle the issues that will stem from crime running rampant, as it will. LA realistically has thousands of police officers. We don't. In the mornings, rarely are there a few admins on. It's just how the server peak times work. If you don't see that, I can't convince you anymore than you can convince me this would be a good idea.

 

3) I'm not insulting the idea. I just don't think it would work. I've played both sides and I think this would get out of hand, quickly. No hard feelings on your stance. I see where you're coming from but from an OOC standpoint this still has to strike a balance at the end of the day. I think this would tip the scales rather hard and balance would pretty much go out the window. This is not good for long-term server health, in my opinion.

 

EDIT: If you can convince me otherwise, I'm here with an open mind.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Sixty

[maramizo]

5 minutes ago, Sixty said:

I don't think I added in another point I meant to make. IF the shooting makes perfect IC sense with good reasoning, sure. I respectfully disagree with the sentiment about crime not needing a good IC reason, but everyone is allowed to have an opinion. No hard feelings. I'm not hating on people who follow the rules and play it right. I'm saying the issue will simply get out of hand because of the people who don't. Sure, you can report them all day long but that excuse been overused since day 1. Obviously not enough people report to fix the problems or there would be less problems or more direct server action to tackle the issues.

 

1) If you want IRL realism with shoot outs and crime, are you okay with real life prison? Real sentences? No 3X speed up? If you want realism in one area, we should equally apply it on the other side of this equation as well. None of this, "I don't want that forced on me." Legal RP'ers don't get to use that excuse anywhere, to my knowledge. Getting robbed? "Oh I don't like that RP forced on me." Yeah that would never happen.

 

2) There isn't enough IC or OOC manpower to handle the issues that will stem from crime running rampant, as it will. LA realistically has thousands of police officers. We don't. In the mornings, rarely are there a few admins on. It's just how the server peak times work. If you don't see that, I can't convince you anymore than you can convince me this would be a good idea.

 

3) I'm not insulting the idea. I just don't think it would work. I've played both sides and I think this would get out of hand, quickly. No hard feelings on your stance. I see where you're coming from but from an OOC standpoint this still has to strike a balance at the end of the day. I think this would tip the scales rather hard and balance would pretty much go out the window. This is not good for long-term server health, in my opinion.

 

I think your first point touches on the nature of why people play this game at all. I personally would say yes I'm down, but the average person would deadass quit the server if that was the case; many people play the game because of the exciting nature of committing crimes, and the ease of consequences. Automatically this means that the average person's expectations consist of a reality that is automatically shifted towards a more violent one, and thus immediately the very feature that makes the game appealing is its transformative nature, or in other words, unrealistic nature.

 

Based on that conclusion, the discussion shifts entirely into what I genuinely believe is the true issue at hand: will all parties involved find the game more fun if shootouts were allowed in mornings?

 

Note that the very fabric of this question now dismisses realism and focuses on what I personally believe is the more important aspect; fun. 

 

To answer that question, I think so. So long as the people involved are limited by specific hours (I.e the shooter or the victim), and only log in during morning times IG, they can now experience a wide range of things that they could not have in the past. Bearing in mind that its genuinely super easy to avoid being shot at on this server.

[Sixty]

14 minutes ago, maramizo said:

 

I think your first point touches on the nature of why people play this game at all. I personally would say yes I'm down, but the average person would deadass quit the server if that was the case; many people play the game because of the exciting nature of committing crimes, and the ease of consequences. Automatically this means that the average person's expectations consist of a reality that is automatically shifted towards a more violent one, and thus immediately the very feature that makes the game appealing is its transformative nature, or in other words, unrealistic nature.

 

Based on that conclusion, the discussion shifts entirely into what I genuinely believe is the true issue at hand: will all parties involved find the game more fun if shootouts were allowed in mornings?

 

Note that the very fabric of this question now dismisses realism and focuses on what I personally believe is the more important aspect; fun. 

 

To answer that question, I think so. So long as the people involved are limited by specific hours (I.e the shooter or the victim), and only log in during morning times IG, they can now experience a wide range of things that they could not have in the past. Bearing in mind that its genuinely super easy to avoid being shot at on this server.

I see your points. However, the discussion there then turns into this question. If you're here for the unrealistic nature and thrill of the game, then there are plenty of other avenues to do that through more casual servers or GTA:Online or even the single player game itself. By no means am I telling you to leave. I'm just posing the question. If your only and primary goal is the thrill and unrealistic nature of committing crime, then what GTAW strives to be as a serious role play server may not be the right place for that mind set. This is supposed to be a heavy role play server where the management has to try and strike a balance between fun and realism as best as possible. I disagree that all parties involved will find the game more fun if shootouts were allowed at any time of the day. Yes, we're not here to play second life. Totally get that. However, your definition of fun may not be someone else's definition of fun. It's all very subjective.

 

The server has to keep a balance between what you think is fun and what others may think is fun. Unfortunately for that to happen, some concessions must be made in certain areas of the server. My time zone is 5 hours behind server time. I miss out on a lot of things that happen because I never get to play during peak times due to real life and work. That's just how it goes. I can't change it. But I can't expect the server to change things just because of my time zone or things I miss when I can't log on. Everyone is going to have that problem at some point or another.

 

To quote your example from the prison RP question, "I personally would say yes I'm down, but the average person would deadass quit the server if that was the case." This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. You think that would be fun, but others don't. In the same vein of that example, how you see fun in disregarding IC times and what would be considered realistic in the pursuit of the thrill may not be how someone else sees the same scenario. What GTAW administration has done so far is strike some sort of balance between the two sides. Do I think that certain situations should have been left less managed and more IC? Sure. However I don't think that the system is wrong. But hey, that's just one man's opinion. I certainly welcome seeing what other people think of the situation though. It's cool to see things from another perspective.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Sixty

[maramizo]

1 minute ago, Sixty said:

I see your points. However, the discussion there then turns into this question. If you're here for the unrealistic nature and thrill of the game, then there are plenty of other avenues to do that through more casual servers or GTA:Online or even the single player game itself. By no means am I telling you to leave. I'm just posing the question. If your only and primary goal is the thrill and unrealistic nature of committing crime, then what GTAW strives to be as a serious role play server may not be the right place for that mind set. This is supposed to be a heavy role play server where the management has to try and strike a balance between fun and realism as best as possible. I disagree that all parties involved will find the game more fun if shootouts were allowed at any time of the day. Yes, we're not here to play second life. Totally get that. However, your definition of fun may not be someone else's definition of fun. It's all very subjective.

 

The server has to keep a balance between what you think is fun and what others may think is fun. Unfortunately for that to happen, some concessions must be made in certain areas of the server. To quote your example from the prison RP question, "I personally would say yes I'm down, but the average person would deadass quit the server if that was the case." This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. You think that would be fun, but others don't. In the same vein of that example, how you see fun in disregarding IC times and what would be considered realistic in the pursuit of the thrill may not be how someone else sees the same scenario. What GTAW administration has done so far is strike some sort of balance between the two sides. Do I think that certain situations should have been left less managed and more IC? Sure. However I don't think that the system is wrong. I personally don't see this suggestion working out. But hey, that's just one man's opinion. I certainly welcome seeing what other people think of the situation though. It's cool to see things from another perspective.

This is the second time someone says "this is a heavy RP server" as a response. I'm well aware. You know what else is heavy RP? OTB DnD, text DnD, SL, WoD, the list goes on. Hell, you would find heavy RP servers back on Skype in the days.

 

It's the inherent difference between those that's the nuance that I'm referencing that you're missing. The game is already skewed. At the end of the day, you chose to roleplay on GTA V. This specific medium has attributes attached to it. LSPD and LSSD are the biggest factions for a reason.

 

I'm merely pointing out what I see to be obvious, but others may be missing out on because they haven't seen the vivid difference in the substance of roleplay solely due to the medium itself. The shit you see on GTAW on a daily basis you'd have NEVER seen on, say, a Tumblr "Heavy RP blog". 

 

This very things that make THIS MEDIUM, GTA V, appealing, are the things I've listed above in my post.

[Sixty]

14 minutes ago, maramizo said:

This very things that make THIS MEDIUM, GTA V, appealing, are the things I've listed above in my post.

This is still very subjective though. Personally I don't find the criminal side of RP appealing at all. It's not my cup of tea. I've done it, at length, across this server and others. Was it cool to experience? Sure. I'm an open minded person willing to try anything once. So your list doesn't apply to me, yet I still find this medium fun without the pursuit of crime and thrill of consequences. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either. This suggestion as  a whole caters to one side and messes with an overall balance. I know I sound like a broken record, but that's how I see it. I appreciate your points though. I'm not missing where you're coming from, but I just can't see this being positive for long-term server health if you're trying to appease both sides of the player spectrum. This caters to one side. As I stated my reasons above, I don't believe there would be enough IC or OOC manpower to handle the negatives that would come with it. Good role players would be fine, but lazy role players would take advantage of this. Rule breakers will be rule breakers and even when punished, it still ruins the RP experience for someone. I feel this would just make things worse in the long-term. I apologize, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it lol. Respectfully.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Sixty

[maramizo]

1 minute ago, Sixty said:

This is still very subjective though. Personally I don't find the criminal side of RP appealing at all. It's not my cup of tea. I've done it, at length, across this server and others. Was it cool to experience? Sure. I'm an open minded person willing to try anything once. So your list doesn't apply to me, yet I still find this medium fun without the pursuit of crime and thrill of consequences. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either. This suggestion as  a whole caters to one side and messes with an overall balance. I know I sound like a broken record, but that's how I see it. I appreciate your points though. I'm not missing where you're coming from, but I just can't see this being positive for long-term server health if you're trying to appease both sides of the player spectrum. This caters to one side. As I stated my reasons above, I don't believe there would be enough IC or OOC manpower to handle the negatives that would come with it.

There is no spectrum. If you're a legal roleplayer you legitimately have nothing to fear, why would a gang banger or any other deadbeat shoot you?

 

Illegal roleplayers shoot other illegal roleplayers. If you get shot as a dude minding his business at any point in time then it's death matching.

 

Even moreso, I'm an "illegal roleplayer", that is to say, my character orchestrates white collar schemes and various dealings. I'm not even close to being afraid of being shot, ever. I know how the escalation rules work and I know I factually have nothing to fear.

 

I think you're making a big deal out of nothing. If you can give me an example of why you think this "caters to one side" then please do. Otherwise, it seems like you're confusing deathmatching for shootouts in the morning time in general.

[Ellix]

The argument keeps being made that the crime rate on the server is way higher than it is in IRL Los Angeles. But what about the other side of that? How many LEOs do we have on the server? What's the ratio of LEOs to civilians? I can already tell you it's exponentially higher than real life.

"Currently, the LAPD has approximately 9,000 sworn officers and 3,000 civilian employees. That is one officer for every 433 residents."

You can't compare illegal RP to real life while ignoring the fact that by the same measure, there's a wildly unrealistic ratio of cops around at any given time. It's just how RP servers are, most people want to RP as either a criminal or an LEO, because it's fun. Most people don't want to get on an RP server and only RP doing things they do IRL. And there's nothing wrong with that.