Some changes for people who does extorting RP

[Ink]

3 hours ago, Powley said:

 

I guess the same could be said for any "legal" business. You're guaranteed your 20k per opening should you attract numbers, on top of that, most places charge a door fee. 

 

Now, most extortions are roughly between 4-10k a Week. Meanwhile those who actually run these businesses, risk free, are making anywhere between 20 to 100k per week (assuming they open atleast 5 times a week, and only collect the 20k government fee). 

 

I find it a bit silly how clubs and bars are willing to pay upwards of 10-15k a night for security but aren't willing to fork out 5-10k a week for extortion. 

 

I find the amount of money you can make from an opening silly as it is. 

For bars/clubs, the most extorted businesses on this server, this 20k an opening really doesn't go far. You point out how silly it is that people pay 10-15k a night for security, but I fail to see how that's silly. When business owners pay employees, they're contributing to a roleplay economy in which people are paid for roleplaying. 

Most bars/clubs, from what I've seen, don't actually make a tremendous amount of money on this server. The door fees end up going almost entirely to paying security (if the place even bothers to collect them), if it wasn't a particularly busy night then the owner has to also pay security out of the stimulus (20k) check, the stimulus checks end up going entirely to paying bartenders and ads, If bars charge insane amounts of money for drinks, they can squeeze out some more profit, but then people are less likely to drink and more likely to complain. Finally, if the bar's hiring a DJ, that's likely going to eat up the rest of the profit margin. Most bars/clubs on this server are striving to break even or leave the owner finishing the night with some 5-10k for their trouble, about as much as they're paying everyone else.

 

Take your average well-intended bar opening. You have between 3 to as many as 5 security guards, at least one of which collects door fees. Each of these people is paid $7,000 each on average. You have 1-2 bartenders, each one paid an average of $5,000. You have a DJ paid some negotiated sum. That is anywhere from 6 to 9 people that you've just incentivized to roleplay. That is 6 to 9 characters that you've helped develop by offering them income, and they have spent 2-3 hours roleplaying having a job.  That's an average of $40,000 and can be as much as $60,000 that's being paid per opening to staff for a big club opening. 

 

The bars/clubs that are going to be most successful on this server are going to be mafia run ones because they don't really need to bother paying for extra security and they don't get targeted for extortion attempts. What a coincidence, just like in real life, organized criminals actually make good money by using a legal business as a front to launder criminal income!! Wow! Crazy! It's almost a mirror of how real life criminals in the US find more productive ways to make money than going into random stores in wealthy neighborhoods and threatening employees on camera. 

And look, despite all this above, it's not really about the money. I mean, sure, e-maniez is great and all, but it's primarily a vehicle for creating roleplay. When business owners pay all this money to others, it's worth it because these are people who are contributing to the atmosphere of the server and helping create a lively legal side of things which makes GTA:W's San Andreas more real. These businesses, especially the more unique ones that aren't necessarily bars/clubs, help give characters a raison d'etre in our setting and gives them something to do. Most people wouldn't RP NPC cashiers or cooks or safety instructors or whatever else if it wasn't for also getting a drip of e-maniez to help their character have agency in the world. 

Most extortion roleplay on this server is just a money farm. It's play to win, a poor RP of fear on behalf of the criminal RPers doing it, and unrealistic. It's heavy-handed, hijacks roleplay, and creates very little of it. Instead of criminal RPers coming up with more creative ways to create interesting RP for the server and using the fact that they're upwards of 20 or 30 talented roleplayers with developing characters to do something unique and impressive, they're leeching off of other people's RP for some of that sweet, sweet e-maniez to come passively roll in. And, hey, if legal business owner is trying to create RP, trying to pay staff, and now they also have gangsters coming in all the time and being boorish, hounding them constantly for money, and stirring up trouble around them and the shop, plus eventually threatening their lives because of "how much you now know about our organization" then suddenly they just don't really feel like dealing with RP, and the server loses out on another business. Thanks extortion RP!

[ElDiablo]

4 hours ago, katjarenae said:

Oh, I completely agree. It's equally as unrealistic to make such large amounts of money from owning a business, especially when it's a scripted one that allows your employees to be paid through the government and you're not actually having to pay them. 

It's clear that there are valid points on both sides, and the realism can only go so far, of course. However if I'm being extorted and the RP starts and ends with the initial agreement and I'm supposed to idly pay a faction weekly without much RP besides irregular, random visits to my business in order to collect...I'm not sure how that's benefiting anyone's RP, which is, after all, the main reason we're here, no?
 

Extortion has the potential to generate quality RP, there is no doubt about that. I don't think it should be as passive as it seems to be sometimes, though. 

Coming from LSRP, I can tell you that I love how the legal business features are handled in GTA World, I really like that the employees get a paycheck and the entrance earnings aren't that much considering the server's economy. Also most people don't open on a daily basis and a lot of businesses need to pay security, staff and all.

 

Back in LSRP was almost impossible to open a nightclub without loosing money. Very low income from the "V.I.P." fees was usually the earning factor.

 

That is the reason of why there's so many different kinds of businesses in GTA World and I love it. The script supports creativity and legal roleplay which enforces the community to also have civilian characters, something that always lacked in LSRP or the people handling the legal side factions tried to be monopoly cringe moguls.

 

With that said, the main point is that this form of extortion does NOT happen in this day and age in nice areas of any big American city where the FBI can easily react and ID a whole organization. Mobs don't expose themselves for small things like that in this time era. They generate way more money in drug deals, weapon deals, prostitution rackets, illegal gambling and so on in real life.

 

As many have stated, this may happen in low income neighborhoods where immigrants or just poor families are extorted by a local criminal group (even street gangs). And it's most of the times done amongst people from the same ethnicity.

 

Many say "but this is so good RP" while the real victims of this in game are creating these topics because it's NOT so good for them.

 

People should roleplay fear to the FBI whether a faction exists or not, it's just realistic modern American roleplay.

 

 

[Garras Up]

9 hours ago, eTaylor said:

Why would a faction magically stop existing because of a few arrested members?

Gangs and criminal organizations stop existing for an array of different reasons, one of which is indictments and RICO crackdowns on said gangs. MS13 for example has lost much of their territory and about 3-4 of their LA 'clikas' permanently due to crackdowns from law enforcement above everything else. There's also other gangs in LA that have ceased to exist almost permanently due to crackdowns via law enforcement, same goes for criminal organizations. They go defunct for the exact same reasons, crackdowns, rivalries and turncoats.

 

As far as extortion RP goes, though... El Diablo has said everything that I was going to say, so I'm just gonna say I support this.

 

5 hours ago, Tsarna said:

i have bern around a year, owning various businesses - it is one interaction, on the weekend, to collect the 10-15k

So what I'm gathering from all these replies is, the extortion isn't particularly the problem, the way people are going about it is, right? If that's how a lot of extortion is going ingame, it definitely needs to change.

 

People also need to remember that there's various ways as an illegal roleplay, gang member, mafia wise guy or whatever ur roleplaying to make people give u money, other than threatening them and doing the usual smash up the store shit. Try befriending the owner, make him feel like u'll actually keep his or her business from harm. Better yet, go a step further and actually protect ur investments ICly.

[Tsarna]

1 hour ago, ElDiablo said:

Coming from LSRP, I can tell you that I love how the legal business features are handled in GTA World, I really like that the employees get a paycheck and the entrance earnings aren't that much considering the server's economy. Also most people don't open on a daily basis and a lot of businesses need to pay security, staff and all.

 

Back in LSRP was almost impossible to open a nightclub without loosing money. Very low income from the "V.I.P." fees was usually the earning factor.

 

That is the reason of why there's so many different kinds of businesses in GTA World and I love it. The script supports creativity and legal roleplay which enforces the community to also have civilian characters, something that always lacked in LSRP or the people handling the legal side factions tried to be monopoly cringe moguls.

 

With that said, the main point is that this form of extortion does NOT happen in this day and age in nice areas of any big American city where the FBI can easily react and ID a whole organization. Mobs don't expose themselves for small things like that in this time era. They generate way more money in drug deals, weapon deals, prostitution rackets, illegal gambling and so on in real life.

 

As many have stated, this may happen in low income neighborhoods where immigrants or just poor families are extorted by a local criminal group (even street gangs). And it's most of the times done amongst people from the same ethnicity.

 

Many say "but this is so good RP" while the real victims of this in game are creating these topics because it's NOT so good for them.

 

People should roleplay fear to the FBI whether a faction exists or not, it's just realistic modern American roleplay.

 

 

Couldnt agree more - what awesome points and also @Ink - great!! That is the thing - we are said that we should always stick to realistic RP (jobs, life, fear, et cetera) and also that should think if OOCly it would make sense. But yet - they go around like it is Chicago, 1920s-1930s, Al Capone era - collect money from every business to buy their AKs and be awesome. Let us be real - legal businesses are for the illegal businesses just a way to earn bonus to buy weapons and stuff. And that, in todays world- would never happen. The FBI would already arrested most of the gangs in here, for making really childish mistakes - taking money under CCTV, et cetera.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Tsarna

[Engelbert]

You know, interestingly enough...mafia usually extorts businesses and people, that they know, won't be going to police. Mafia always had legal business put up front while extorting small dealers, thief rings, small gangsters, yes shops and clubs too, but their main focus was on people they knew won't be reporting them.

[Ink]

1 hour ago, Engelbert said:

You know, interestingly enough...mafia usually extorts businesses and people, that they know, won't be going to police. Mafia always had legal business put up front while extorting small dealers, thief rings, small gangsters, yes shops and clubs too, but their main focus was on people they knew won't be reporting them.

This is huge. This is the way real world mafias work to lean their scary illegal influence. Mafia enforcers can show up and threaten you if they know the odds of you going to the police are slim. Usually, these are people who have already engaged in some illegal activity or profited from the mafia before. A lot of what the mafia does in real life is seduce people into their sphere of influence and then tighten their hold over time. 

It's fully realistic for the mafia to extort criminals because the local car boosting gang is not going to go to the police and say "oh no Tony Spaghettio is telling me he'll break my knees if I don't pay him 20% of everything I make stealing cars!" And just the same, if a business owner makes a habit of hanging out with gangsters, going to gamble with them, and asks them for favors to beat up someone, that business owner is likely going to be "extorted" by his mafia friends and they'll know he won't go to the police because his relationship with them will be revealed. 

 

That's why I really like the suggestion Diablo made a few pages back. I don't agree with all of it, but I really like the idea of there being more a realistic "opt-in" for legal businesses about how heavily people want criminals to lean into their business. There are plenty of advantages to playing a crooked, corrupt business which courts gangsters, and there are lots of characters who would fit that lifestyle very well of living with one foot in the legal world and one foot in the criminal world. For other characters, though, it's immersion breaking and reinforces the fact that this is just a video game RPG whenever we're trying to RP realistic legal characters running realistic legal businesses and every country in Europe sends a mafia over to pay a visit. 

[Tsarna]

1 hour ago, Engelbert said:

You know, interestingly enough...mafia usually extorts businesses and people, that they know, won't be going to police. Mafia always had legal business put up front while extorting small dealers, thief rings, small gangsters, yes shops and clubs too, but their main focus was on people they knew won't be reporting them.

I do not know, I have never been extorted IRL ya know. But if IG 15 people show up, then you have really no other chance to say "yes" to them. Even if they come at busy hours and only come by once a week to collect their prizes.

[Tsarna]

22 hours ago, Ink said:

 

I think roleplaying fear goes both ways. The point that so many people in the community have concurred on is that many criminal roleplayers are failing to roleplay any sort of fear of consequences for their extortion. I have never once heard of a business owner in Los Angeles outside of an immigrant ghetto being extorted by anyone, especially a mafia family. I challenge you to find 3 news articles discussing extortions or attempted extortions happening in Los Angeles, and I further challenge you to find one which doesn't end in "and has been arrested," "is under indictment," or "has been sentenced to." 

As it stands, many criminal roleplayers on our server are taking full advantage of the OOC limitations of our PD's ability to investigate and build casefiles against RICO violations. They know the odds of any consequences befalling their character are really slim, so their character feels free to brazenly walk into any business, threaten indiscriminately, and make bones with any random shop owner even though this does not happen at all in modern day American metropolises. It just doesn't.

Currently, all IC and OOC consequences for extortion fall on legal roleplayers, and many criminal roleplayers are just treating this like a passive money farm.

This point is the best one - gotta say. Exactly!  They do not have fear at all, because they are just machines who come and take the cash, give it to faction, die, make new character and the circle begins again, since the illegal faction does not stop existing. BUT - when you are legal business owner and die, then your business is lost. 

I have never seen during the whole year, some mobster to RP fear, while they come to extoet - they don´t do that at all. And this PD thing indeed is the other thing - realistically there would be experts in LAPD to do that kind of investigations and those dudes would be in jail already, but IG LSPD consists of mostly people, who have no idea about that kind of investigations, how they should be done, et cetera - or they just won´t do them at all. So-- this "extortion" definition is all good, but the same people who cry out for "realism" are now so against REALISM in this situation - exactly because they need to do some quality RP then, not passive money farming on the weekends from 30 businesses.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Tsarna

[Ohngesicht]

5 hours ago, Ink said:

And, hey, if legal business owner is trying to create RP, trying to pay staff, and now they also have gangsters coming in all the time and being boorish, hounding them constantly for money, and stirring up trouble around them and the shop, plus eventually threatening their lives because of "how much you now know about our organization" then suddenly they just don't really feel like dealing with RP, and the server loses out on another business. Thanks extortion RP!

or you can just deal with it IG. what about feeding the police with information? and you're saying extortion shouldn't happen for the sake of RP but isn't that limiting other players?

[Engelbert]

1 hour ago, Ink said:

This is huge. This is the way real world mafias work to lean their scary illegal influence. Mafia enforcers can show up and threaten you if they know the odds of you going to the police are slim. Usually, these are people who have already engaged in some illegal activity or profited from the mafia before. A lot of what the mafia does in real life is seduce people into their sphere of influence and then tighten their hold over time. 

It's fully realistic for the mafia to extort criminals because the local car boosting gang is not going to go to the police and say "oh no Tony Spaghettio is telling me he'll break my knees if I don't pay him 20% of everything I make stealing cars!" And just the same, if a business owner makes a habit of hanging out with gangsters, going to gamble with them, and asks them for favors to beat up someone, that business owner is likely going to be "extorted" by his mafia friends and they'll know he won't go to the police because his relationship with them will be revealed. 

 

That's why I really like the suggestion Diablo made a few pages back. I don't agree with all of it, but I really like the idea of there being more a realistic "opt-in" for legal businesses about how heavily people want criminals to lean into their business. There are plenty of advantages to playing a crooked, corrupt business which courts gangsters, and there are lots of characters who would fit that lifestyle very well of living with one foot in the legal world and one foot in the criminal world. For other characters, though, it's immersion breaking and reinforces the fact that this is just a video game RPG whenever we're trying to RP realistic legal characters running realistic legal businesses and every country in Europe sends a mafia over to pay a visit. 

This is pretty much it. Back in 90s I know my friends were engaged in such and yes they went to clubs, that borrowed money from them and extorted people they knew are criminals.