PK and CK

[Nervous]

3 hours ago, Keane said:

To start, I'll say that I'd actually like to play in an environment were CKs happen a lot more often. However, it needs players that have a certain mindset. It requires players that actually roleplay characters and put a lot of thought into what their character does. It requires players that see the benefit in letting roleplay between characters continue over a long period of time, rather than cutting it short because it benefits them. It requires players that do things because it's what their character would do and not because it's something they would do. 

 

I've played on quite a few servers before I came here and they all had the same issue. Most of the killing done by players is for OOC reasons. There are very few scenarios I have seen where a character was killed for strictly IC reasons. It is just impossible to solve this unless you want to start a 20 person server where you know every single person involved. 

 

There are several different kinds of killing for OOC reasons, which I will describe below. I have seen this happening on every server I've played on, including this one.

 

You have the players that start as roleplayers but get bored, so they just log on to create scenarios to shoot others. They often show up as robbery crews. This allows them to get more guns to fuel their robbing sprees. It also gives them quick and easy access to scenarios where they can shoot other players. You didn't react fast enough? Shot for not complying because one of the members are jumpy. You roleplay reaching into your pocket for your wallet? One of them thought you had a gun. Some even try to make the roleplay as painful as possible to encourage you to be more likely to pull a gun on them when they show up next. There is also the police attention they get because they don't change their clothes or the vehicle they use, even if they get killed by police. 

Even if you start CKing these players every time they die, they just make new characters and continue doing the exact same thing. If you give these players the ability to CK others, they get all the reward for a lot less risk. They use characters that intentionally have no background, no development and no depth to ruin the experience for others. These characters have zero value to them but they have the ability to CK someone's character that they have put months and sometimes even years of effort into. Because these types of players have plenty of experience on various servers, they know how to get around the rules. Every time an admin explains the rule to them, they get a better idea of where the line is. This results in a lot of borderline killings. 

Another type of OOC killing is done by players that can't take a loss. This plagues every RP server. Some players are overly sensitive about their character's appearance and reputation. Either that or they don't want anything negative to happen to their character, so they kill someone else. They will often try to kill someone else first before the other person has a chance to kill them. The thought of being seen dead by other players horrifies them. I'm sure many of you have seen people log off after they get shot down or on servers where you can hide your nametag, they hide their nametag to avoid being seen dead. This happens most often on LSRP because the mentality of players taking screenshots of dead players and sharing them everywhere is common.

 

That brings me onto my next point. We have the players that don't split IC from OOC. It's the same type of people you see arguing on faction threads instead of keeping the beef IC. They're quick to post a screenshot of a dead faction member on the faction thread of the dead faction member. Or maybe even a video of when the killing happened. There's also some insults included to put the icing on the cake. This is the more obvious form of it happening. There is also situations where someone wants to leave a faction, so the faction CKs them. We have had it happen here with at least two players in the past few months. It caused quite a lot of drama and involved appeals on every step of the ladder. I can't imagine how bad it would be if players could CK more freely. 

 

There was also the argument of not getting involved in dangerous situations. The problem is that due to the types of players that I listed above, sometimes death is unavoidable. Allowing more CKs will just encourage more players to roleplay inside when they should be out meeting new people, teaching newer players and giving people a reason to keep playing. I'm sure there's a bunch of you that hate logging on to just drive around for an hour and quit. More CKs will make this happen for more players. 

I would like CKs to happen more often, however. The server with its current playerbase just won't be suitable for having CKs happen regularly. Every situation involving a killing is different so it would be very difficult to get a fair CK rule in place. 

This is basicly what I witnessed too from my experience, I'll just add that I don't think it's a playerbase issue, I think it's more some "game" limit we're reaching. I could see such thing work in a very small group of friends playing together, let's say 15-20 players, but in any other environment It unfortunately wouldn't for all the reasons listed. And no one is to be blamed for it personally.

[1357]

3 hours ago, Keane said:

You have the players that start as roleplayers but get bored, so they just log on to create scenarios to shoot others. They often show up as robbery crews. This allows them to get more guns to fuel their robbing sprees. It also gives them quick and easy access to scenarios where they can shoot other players. You didn't react fast enough? Shot for not complying because one of the members are jumpy. You roleplay reaching into your pocket for your wallet? One of them thought you had a gun. Some even try to make the roleplay as painful as possible to encourage you to be more likely to pull a gun on them when they show up next. There is also the police attention they get because they don't change their clothes or the vehicle they use, even if they get killed by police. 

Even if you start CKing these players every time they die, they just make new characters and continue doing the exact same thing. If you give these players the ability to CK others, they get all the reward for a lot less risk. They use characters that intentionally have no background, no development and no depth to ruin the experience for others. These characters have zero value to them but they have the ability to CK someone's character that they have put months and sometimes even years of effort into. Because these types of players have plenty of experience on various servers, they know how to get around the rules. Every time an admin explains the rule to them, they get a better idea of where the line is. This results in a lot of borderline killings. 

But wouldn't this fall under character quality and development? Some of these complications that seem so problematic aren't all that. These players are inevitable but their actions will become apparent when they're constantly shooting and killing others especially when their characters are not well developed whatsoever.

 

Before any killing were to happen.. players are always required to document their role play from the exact moment the problems were instigated up to the sequence of events that led to the killing.. and if the opposing player has issues with it then it will need to be shown. If the documented role play is sub par with poor reason and the character involved fails to prove any true character development then it can be dismissed. What if with this, the chairs are switched around. CK is the main death but we use mechanics similar to PK?

 

I would expect death and killing to be handled a lot more seriously and if a player is continuously killing other players because of any small occurrence it becomes apparent what their true intentions are and they can be banned from the server until they decide to properly role play and not treat it like a death match zone. 

 

Rules can be adjusted and made a lot more strict to prevent these players from easily exploiting the rules. For the people who are worried that they'll lose all their progress due to another persons decision to not follow rules and troll.. they could have their character reactivated.

 

If there's players catching bodies left and right with only 50 hours or even 100 hours they held required to have a damn near perfect explanation and reasoning behind it and it isn't only limited to players with low hours of course those with higher hours are held just as accountable.. but this will make it easier to differentiate between those who are making multiple characters for the sole purpose of targeting others and not for real character development.

18 minutes ago, Nervous said:

This is basicly what I witnessed too from my experience, I'll just add that I don't think it's a playerbase issue, I think it's more some "game" limit we're reaching. I could see such thing work in a very small group of friends playing together, let's say 15-20 players, but in any other environment It unfortunately wouldn't for all the reasons listed. And no one is to be blamed for it personally.

I truly believe if we went about it the right way.. it could turn out to be something worthwhile. It would require a lot to make work but the end result could be something revolutionary.. and provide so much more to role play that role play has been missing for ages. We shouldn't be pointing out why it didn't work for X servers and instead try and figure out how ways we can improve on the faults of the servers that have tried this in the past.

 

I've never seen a single server that was well established with organized, mature staffing and extremely high standards attempt this before

[Nervous]

1 minute ago, 1357 said:

But wouldn't this fall under character quality and development? Some of these complications that seem so problematic aren't all that. These players are inevitable but their actions will become apparent when they're constantly shooting and killing others especially when their characters are not well developed whatsoever.

 

Before any killing were to happen.. players are always required to document their role play from the exact moment the problems were instigated up to the sequence of events that led to the killing.. and if the opposing player has issues with it then it will need to be shown. If the documented role play is sub par with poor reason and the character involved fails to prove any true character development then it can be dismissed. What if with this, the chairs are switched around. CK is the main death but we use mechanics similar to PK?

 

I would expect death and killing to be handled a lot more seriously and if a player is continuously killing other players because of any small occurrence it becomes apparent what their true intentions are and they can be banned from the server until they decide to properly role play and not treat it like a death match zone. 

 

Rules can be adjusted and made a lot more strict to prevent these players from easily exploiting the rules. For the people who are worried that they'll lose all their progress due to another persons decision to not follow rules and troll.. they could have their character reactivated.

 

If there's players catching bodies left and right with only 50 hours or even 100 hours they held required to have a damn near perfect explanation and reasoning behind it and it isn't only limited to players with low hours of course those with higher hours are held just as accountable.. but this will make it easier to differentiate between those who are making multiple characters for the sole purpose of targeting others and not for real character development.

I truly believe if we went about it the right way.. it could turn out to be something worthwhile. It would require a lot to make work but the end result could be something revolutionary.. and provide so much more to role play that role play has been missing for ages. We shouldn't be pointing out why it didn't work for X servers and instead try and figure out how ways we can improve on the faults of the servers that have tried this in the past.

 

I've never seen a single server that was well established with organized, mature staffing and extremely high standards attempt this before

Unfortunately this is not a test lab where we can experiment things that could destroy the entire server, and this is the kind of measures that will If it's pushed in a day to a full CK change. We'll soon push some more changes regarding CKs and your actions having impact, but it is definitely not planned to ever move to a full CK server mode unfortunately as It's not realistic to imagine it working in such a big community. I'm sure you believe in your opinion that it could work and it's good, but I cannot take such a bet on a big community we took time and effort to create.

[1357]

Just now, Nervous said:

Unfortunately this is not a test lab where we can experiment things that could destroy the entire server, and this is the kind of measures that will If it's pushed in a day to a full CK change. We'll soon push some more changes regarding CKs and your actions having impact, but it is definitely not planned to ever move to a full CK server mode unfortunately as It's not realistic to imagine it working in such a big community. I'm sure you believe in your opinion that it could work and it's good, but I cannot take such a bet on a big community we took time and effort to create.

Of course.. i understand that. Thank you to everyone it's been a fun topic to discuss and get everyone's perspective on. ?

[Poetic Justice]

Yes. Let's get CK because random dude wants to have fun CK'ing me because I said he's ugly, or another PK'able and DM'able reasons.

[Engelbert]

PK would be more suitable if people actually accepted rules of being PK'd. Like staying away from people that killed you for 24hrs at least etc etc.

CK is normally seen as last resort. 

[aldo]

I agree, PKs are so scuffed.

[Bospy]

20 hours ago, Arthur said:

I think some of you are blinded by the advantages this system provides, and don't pause to consider the possible implications it could have on your experience and the community. Consider a potential loss of players, a fatiguing and drained of joy community, the basic In Character conflicts transform into ego-driven conflicts on an Out of Character level with a continuous involvement from the staff team.

 

Bottom line, that's a lot of power for the average player to have, a decent chunk of the players refuse to accept a mere Player Kill in a sportive manner, let alone a Character Kill.

 

I believe the server is good as it is, players don't seem to have a trigger happy mentality, at least from my experience. I guess it depends on who you associate yourself with.

Pretty much this. Consider the number of deathmatching reports - unless there's incredibly clear guidelines against certain types of deaths, people will argue much harder and take losses much more personally if they're constantly being CK'd. 

 

 

17 hours ago, Nervous said:

Unfortunately this is not a test lab where we can experiment things that could destroy the entire server, and this is the kind of measures that will If it's pushed in a day to a full CK change.

This is good to hear, and I hope that whatever you guys plan takes everything into consideration. I think CKs have great potential to enhance roleplay, but not in all cases. It's something that could easily be abused.

[Taunky]

Hell yeah, brotendo! Onward with the Character Kills! ?

[DeadlyMask]

I wouldn't agree with something like this at all, for the simple fact that many players will not like it.

Imagine becoming a well known and powerful character and then getting CK'ed, would you really start all over if you've spent 5-6 months developing that character?