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Brett

Redefine PK's and CK's Officially

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Brett    63

Alright, so let me explain a gripe I've been having to open this conversation. It really concerns how ambiguous the PK's and CK's are on the server, and how there is no hardcore definitions for them which makes them really messy and just outright weird. Here is the problem, and I'll make a scene. Imagine you're a criminal, and you're engaging in a store robbery on the server. And during that robbery, you end up PKing someone and escape and maybe later get caught by police. As it stands right now, you would be charged with Murder 2nd or 1st Degree depending on how charging will go in your individual case, with your victim officially being named the individual who you would've PK'd. Here is where the issues are in this. One, the PK'd victim isn't actually murdered and still lives and will be walking around, roleplaying, and still living out their life. Now how people resolve the issue of continuity in this, we have two standards currently being upheld which are contradictory.  PD, Courts, and the person who shot would be RPing from this point that someone was actually killed and would name the victim and all of their RP would be structured on this premise and inducted into their character stories. But for the person who was actually PK'd, they would act like this never happened to them. That they were never involved in a store robbery and were killed (Because how could they, if they're living still.) And may OOCly make up some BS like "Oh I heard someone around the corner got shot in a robbery, etc." Just to keep on with their normal roleplay. 

 

This is a legitimate problem, because it makes absolutely no sense. Because you have two realities, one where someone is roleplaying that someone was legitimately murdered and put in the ground, them being charged with such an offense of murder, and everyone on one side of the aisle claiming that someone was murdered. And the other side claiming they have nothing to do with the incident and all (Since they were the victims.) And thus are absolutely disconnected, and it's basically de-facto removed from their character history unless they personally choose to make it a CK on themselves to fix the contradiction which few will do. I want to fix this problem, because it absolutely makes zero sense to continue. Here is what I propose:

 

  • Make an official topic detailing PK's and CK's, defining PK's as Attempted Murders and not Full Murders. Allowing victims to  continue roleplaying if they've ever been shot, and deal with IC repercussions to encourage further RP off incidents that occur.
  • In the official thread, define CK's as Full Murders. As the victim will legitimately be removed from the RP, and cannot come back. 

 

It's that simple. You don't have to change CK's or PK rules or enforce one standard over the other. Just make it crystal clear that PK's are not full murders rather attempted murders, and CK's are full murders. This would solve a hell of a lot of immersion issues, and stop this alternate reality game where two sides go away from an incident with two different mindsets of what happened and still influencing the RP with stories that make zero sense. It's just absolutely breaks immersion from an IC and OOC perspective to see someone you killed and got charged with or not walking down the street all calm and such like he was never in a shootout or whatever, to see entire casefiles and such made on someone who is still fine, to have people getting like 20 murder charges just calmly living their life in Los Santos because we're taking PK's as Murders. It makes no sense, and it's absolutely breaking reality in so many weird ways and I believe it needs to stop. I shall allow discussion from this point on. 

 

Note: This thread isn't about PK's or CK's frequency, or which should be more rare or not. This thread is only talking about defining the OOC standard for how they are to be roleplayed as and that is all. Please don't derail the conversation into which you prefer, want to happen more, etc as that is an entirely separate topic. Thank you.

Edited by Brett
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Hollywood    22

A long awaited discussion that needs to happen. This pretty much falls in line with 'RP gun fear'. Firstly - there absolutely needs to be a statute of the server rules that states a "legitimate" (CK/PK) attempt on a characters' life needs to be RP'd to some extent. In layman terms 'RP CK fear'. Furthermore, PKs need to be addressed as Brett said:

19 minutes ago, Brett said:

two sides go away from an incident with two different mindsets of what happened

 

There is far too much confusion about how to prosecute or in my character's case defend against or otherwise roleplay the criminal act of attempted murder/homicide etc when two parties walk away with different RP. In short, we need a common ground on these scenarios so that civvie players, LEOs and Judicial staff can have a cohesive interaction. 

Edited by Hollywood
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Henning    68

Definitely needs to be addressed. I've PKed players before and had them show up later and in my RP and it leads to an awkward situation for all parties.

 

Lets look at the character Cam Vance (I don't know your forum name, apologies). Cam and Aaron got in an argument, Cam hit Aaron with his car, Aaron tracked him down and PKed him. Neither of us exist in each others worlds, but here's where the problem starts. Now Cam Vance is closely associated to a character I frequently do business with, OOCly I know whats going on and although I would never do business with Cam for IC reason's, I also can't address this conflict with the third party because Cam is dead in my world.

 

My suggestion?

 

PK = Spur of the moment attacks or attacks where you can not confirm the death of the victim.

CK = Attacks that have been planned out and carried out properly where the death of the victim can be confirmed. Or killings that are approved by staff using the normal CK application.

 

Here's some example:

 

PK: Rolling 60's insulted JTM, JTM decides to execute a drive by on Chamberlain hills, Although they kill multiple characters, They can't confirm that they are dead.

 

CK: The Conti Crew discovers one of their associates are going to flip. They find the associate and kidnap him, Executing him and disposing of the body and evidence properly. Confirming that he is dead.

 

Not the perfect rules but I think it leaves room for people to figure a bit of it out themselves. 

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nwah_    15

It is a messy area, really. When I first joined PKs seemed so bizarre to me and they still do to an extent, although I understand the reason for them. So people don't have to lose all their character progress over a simple robbery gone wrong, whatever.

 

Though I do think PKs in general do hamper roleplay, there is no continuation, revenge, et cetera. Of course if you get PKed, and your friends witness it, they can obviously get revenge for the act that their (undisclosed random friend) died. But I think it's pretty bullshit that a lot of criminals committing petty crimes like mugging someone resort to PK's just as a way to stop that person from retaliating. Do people kill others over petty shit in the real world? Sure they do, but it's something that shouldn't be so common. Just as the person being robbed/whatever roleplays fear, so too should the person committing the crime, why would they want a simple robbery jumped up to a murder charge? Because they know they can get away with it for the most part.

 

Alternatively CKs can be way more common, at least if you're partaking in violence. Perhaps that would make people more cautious about getting into altercations because no one would just put their life on the line over simple beefs. Perhaps get rid of PKs altogether, and a kill is a kill. A little harsh, but it shouldn't be something done over a petty altercation, unless tensions arose and things got heated. Just my two cents.

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21 minutes ago, nwah_ said:

Though I do think PKs in general do hamper roleplay, there is no continuation, revenge, et cetera.


It finalises your vendetta without actually offing a character and potentially making someone leave the server. Honestly, CKs should be rare, unless you're targeting the head of a faction/group to seriously destabilise them I can't think of any situation in which you NEED to CK someone.

 

From your point of view you killed that character and they can no longer trouble you. Why do you care if they're permadead? Your personal reasons have been fulfilled. Wanting more just seems like you legitimately want to aggravate that player.

 

Again, this does not apply to faction leaders. If you want X faction to stop rivaling you or causing trouble, killing their leader makes perfect sense.

Edited by pateuvasiliu
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Henning    68
22 minutes ago, pateuvasiliu said:


It finalises your vendetta without actually offing a character and potentially making someone leave the server. Honestly, CKs should be rare, unless you're targeting the head of a faction/group to seriously destabilise them I can't think of any situation in which you NEED to CK someone.

 

From your point of view you killed that character and they can no longer trouble you. Why do you care if they're permadead? Your personal reasons have been fulfilled. Wanting more just seems like you legitimately want to aggravate that player.

 

Again, this does not apply to faction leaders. If you want X faction to stop rivaling you or causing trouble, killing their leader makes perfect sense.

Once you've RPed long enough you start to see why CK's are important. Yeah, said character is dead to you but not to anyone else. They'll just keep going like nothing happened and it completely undermines all RP. CK's aren't handed out wholesale, The process for CKing any character requires a lot of effort especially if you have to apply for kill rights. At the end of the day, If you make a decision that results in you being CKed, Its not for any old reason. You fucked up and You have to deal with the consequences. Another players RP shouldn't be undermined because a player doesn't want to face the consequences of their actions. 

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Brett    63
1 hour ago, Henning said:

Definitely needs to be addressed. I've PKed players before and had them show up later and in my RP and it leads to an awkward situation for all parties.

 

Lets look at the character Cam Vance (I don't know your forum name, apologies). Cam and Aaron got in an argument, Cam hit Aaron with his car, Aaron tracked him down and PKed him. Neither of us exist in each others worlds, but here's where the problem starts. Now Cam Vance is closely associated to a character I frequently do business with, OOCly I know whats going on and although I would never do business with Cam for IC reason's, I also can't address this conflict with the third party because Cam is dead in my world.

 

My suggestion?

 

PK = Spur of the moment attacks or attacks where you can not confirm the death of the victim.

CK = Attacks that have been planned out and carried out properly where the death of the victim can be confirmed. Or killings that are approved by staff using the normal CK application.

 

Here's some example:

 

PK: Rolling 60's insulted JTM, JTM decides to execute a drive by on Chamberlain hills, Although they kill multiple characters, They can't confirm that they are dead.

 

CK: The Conti Crew discovers one of their associates are going to flip. They find the associate and kidnap him, Executing him and disposing of the body and evidence properly. Confirming that he is dead.

 

Not the perfect rules but I think it leaves room for people to figure a bit of it out themselves. 

This would perfectly fit in with my suggestion here. If PK's were oocly defined as the Attempted Murder standard from the OOC point of view, then ICly it can be rped as whatever. An example is like you said, someone does a driveby or something and they think they killed the player, but in reality they got rushed to the hospital alter or something. It can be rped as they wish, but from a story-standpoint on the OOC level for the PD/Player/Courts/Etc it has a consistent story. A simple defining of this as an OOC standard, would completely allow for the flexibility of how people deal with it from an IC point of view, and would help resolve so much unresolved questions in the IC so we no longer have this "Two different realities," and messy IG situations like the one you described above. 

Edited by Brett

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aldo    193
1 hour ago, Henning said:

Definitely needs to be addressed. I've PKed players before and had them show up later and in my RP and it leads to an awkward situation for all parties.

 

Lets look at the character Cam Vance (I don't know your forum name, apologies). Cam and Aaron got in an argument, Cam hit Aaron with his car, Aaron tracked him down and PKed him. Neither of us exist in each others worlds, but here's where the problem starts. Now Cam Vance is closely associated to a character I frequently do business with, OOCly I know whats going on and although I would never do business with Cam for IC reason's, I also can't address this conflict with the third party because Cam is dead in my world.

 

My suggestion?

 

PK = Spur of the moment attacks or attacks where you can not confirm the death of the victim.

CK = Attacks that have been planned out and carried out properly where the death of the victim can be confirmed. Or killings that are approved by staff using the normal CK application.

 

Here's some example:

 

PK: Rolling 60's insulted JTM, JTM decides to execute a drive by on Chamberlain hills, Although they kill multiple characters, They can't confirm that they are dead.

 

CK: The Conti Crew discovers one of their associates are going to flip. They find the associate and kidnap him, Executing him and disposing of the body and evidence properly. Confirming that he is dead.

 

Not the perfect rules but I think it leaves room for people to figure a bit of it out themselves. 

yes well said lad

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1 hour ago, Henning said:

Once you've RPed long enough you start to see why CK's are important. Yeah, said character is dead to you but not to anyone else. They'll just keep going like nothing happened and it completely undermines all RP


And? Your beef with them is over.

 

And I've RPed for 7 years now. I'm no stranger to permakills, but they need to come for a reason, not just " This guy dissed me ", or else we'd permakill each other daily.

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Henning    68
21 minutes ago, pateuvasiliu said:


And? Your beef with them is over.

 

And I've RPed for 7 years now. I'm no stranger to permakills, but they need to come for a reason, not just " This guy dissed me ", or else we'd permakill each other daily.

CK’s don’t just happen. Your either significant downplaying the RP that goes into it to prove your point or you don’t actually know what goes into the CK application. 

 

People don’t get CKed because they dissed someone, people get CKed because they decided to run their mouth in a situation they shouldn’t be running their mouth in. IE they didn’t RP fear. 

 

CK’s are normally pretty air tight and always approved by pretty high level staff members. Additionally, CK’s are supervised by an admin from start to finish. Any slip up and it’s voided. People aren’t running around “permakilling” anyone who disses them and anybody who does get CKed for dissing someone 100% deserves it because there is no way that shit flies without admin approval first.

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