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Smilesville

Forbid Voice Chat for the LSPD

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Arnzeal    26
Posted (edited)

I understand the arguments from both parties seeing as both sides make valid points. But, from the PD point of view, seeing as I have been RPing within PD factions on and off since 2010, I believe TS is needed in order to as realistically as possible portray and execute proper policing. Without it, as many have stated already, the communication between units will be far too slow and ineffective. This would be extremely crippling, making it nearly impossible to maintain a dynamic task force out in the field.

 

On the other hand, if the script were able to back PD up in regards to beacons etc, that would make things more fair for the other party. Then again, when you think about real life scenarios, when are they ever fair? The police always tend to be more organized though constant communication, better equipment and more in number. I feel this is how things are supposed to be, the PD is supposed to have the upper hand. And if you do manage to escape justice, knowing you beat the ods, things become so much more satisfying.

 

Edit: I also have no doubt many scenarios involving something bigger than regular pursuits, illegal RP players tend to sit on common channels on Discord, TS, Skype etc and communicate anyway regardless of the rules.

Edited by Arnzeal

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Mitch    53
52 minutes ago, AmiToSs said:

If you shoot at cops and die, you CK (yes, every time).

 

I'd like this to happen. 

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1357    11
1 hour ago, Syrike said:

The issue with that is, sadly there are many people who shoot at the cops just so they get killed and get out of the prison sentence. The other issue that happens from time to time is someone who has been shot in the head eight times RPing that they've been shot in the arm, theres just so much that doesn't have a specific rule attached to it. As for CKing characters, thats a whole other ball game, noone wants their character to die in a stupid situation and the arguements that would stem from that one would go on for quite some time.

 

All in all I do not support this suggestion, the LSPD IC teamspeak is heavily monitored by not only the PD supervisors but also by Admins and FM, if there is a problem the admin team deals with it accordingly and very quickly. LSPD faction members are accountable for all of their actions and are held to high standards.

But that is what my suggestion is for, so that people can't just die and use it to prevent jail time. Also, people should not be allowed to role play being shot only in the arm if their damages show otherwise, wouldn't that be power gaming? 

 

The CK I mention is just something I thought of to prevent players from committing crime over any or petty reason, it would make a player rethink whether they want to do so, as it would come at a huge risk, whether they are involved with police or die from another player. I really do think it would give news reporters something useful to role play, along with other players who were relatives, friends or associates and so forth..

 

Sometimes we cannot rely on players to role play fear alone especially when really there is nothing to fear other than it being another rule to follow.

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Joelrwuk    6

I completely understand the logic of allowing this but i'd suggest two things.

 

Firstly, a clear indicator in game that an officer is using their radio (via VoIP). I imagine pairing with TS for such would be incredibly difficult, therefore it could be as simple as PD being required to use push-to-talk, and the same key being enabled as the PD radio indicator. Similar to the typing indicator that was brought in. Possibly the exact same but blue?

 

Secondly, i've been on the server for nine months now I believe. I learned that the PD were permitted to do such through the same report that has been mentioned within this thread. For nine months I have been entirely unaware of this, and have been confused at times, sometimes leading me to suspect metagaming on the PD's part when in fact it was simply this rule being utilised.

 

I would strongly suggest that all abilities, rules, and methods for the PD on the server be transparent. This is the most glaring one, and while I believe this thread has enough traction to inform some players, everyone should be aware. This isn't limited to the PD. All features and faction specific rules on the server should be known to the player base and clearly advertised.

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Shinto    7

Simply put, this wouldn't work. Metagame galore from the already shitty criminals that roam the server (yes, I've had a lot of experience with terrible criminal portrayals/seen it in SS's).

There is only one and only solution for your suggestion to become fair and that would be to change to a Voice based RP server, which I'm fully against.
Just suck it up. PD has their voice, they need it. Request permission from administration or talk to them before doing any sort of 'heist' that'd require microphones to be used and explain your plan of action, perhaps they might be willing to let you do it in a specific TS channel where they can monitor you with it, which would be quite nice imo - it's been done on other text based RP servers and works well..

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A_Acko    189

Most of these comments/replies are from people that have not been in the PD/have never been. 

Let's be honest: how many times has this been discussed before?

 

It's impossible to be an organized 'police department' without the use of TeamSpeak. How are you supposed to coordinate a vehicle pursuit?  How are you going to inform another unit that a roadblock or spikes have been deployed at a certain location? How are you going to execute everything perfectly (as is expected of) you, when you can not use voice communication?

 

There's already plenty of complaints about PD responding with too much delay.  Keep in mind that the PD only uses voice-chat in tactical situations., imagine what it would be like if this procedure/advantage didn't exist. 

 

As to the gang shootings, I doubt gangs are as organized as the department is. Do they also use a radio frequency? If they do, I wouldn't mind them using voice chat either in situations where they really need it.

 

 

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Smilesville    75
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, dionkoffie said:

Cops should only use voice chat when typing is next to impossible depending on the situation they're currently in.

My contention is that this is never the case - or at very least, if it is impossible for officers, it is also impossible for others who should be allowed the same opportunity. Allowing one and not the other is hypocrisy at worst, unfair at best.

 

10 hours ago, Westen said:

Except not every other faction is granted the authority to enforce the law. 

 

I strongly disagree with this suggestion simply because it would be impossible for them to operate. You say this is how everyone should be able to talk to other people while typing - not everyone is trained to give pursuit commentary at high speeds, not everyone wears a radio that they can speak into by reaching to their chest/shoulder and pressing a button, and most importantly, not everyone can be moderated to prevent metagaming.

Should a faction's IC function determine what OOC rules they are permitted to get around? I would say no.

 

One hardly needs training in pursuit commentary if they engage in a group phone call and simply talk into their phone while leaving it on - and if they are permitted to use voice chat during their own car chases, I highly doubt you would hear radio codes over their channels. As for the contention that it is heavily moderated, I would present the following quote to you.

 

6 hours ago, luna said:

Teamspeak is heavily moderated by Supervisors+ within the department, on scenes where there is no justification for using Teamspeak, it is not used for IC communications. 

If this is acceptable by server standards, why not have the "senior" faction members of criminal organizations monitor their own voice chat channels?

 

You would be right to be suspicious, of course, but I fail to see how this differs in any way from permitting police supervisors to monitor their own voice channels - at the end of the day, you are permitting a group to police itself and trusting that the outcome will be fair. Not even supervisor LSPD players should be above that suspicion, and the case in point is this very situation mentioned by others in which an officer called for backup while surrounded over the Teamspeak.

 

Was this an action sanctioned by the aforementioned supervisors? Will they be punished if they permitted this? These are fair questions that we probably won't get the answer to, if we're being entirely honest.

 

6 hours ago, Lloydski said:

Oh boy if you're wanting to make things fairer for all then how about:

  • Longer/realistic punishment times for repeat offenders.
  • Enforcing believable wealth and assets on the rest of the server. Specifically cars.
  • Stopping people PKing when they attack cops and die.

Just a few to whet the appetite. You make it sound like the PD get given some sort of pass that lets them ignore the rules, where the truth is that they are actually a lot more scrutinised - probably moreso than any other faction in the server. The possible repercussions an officer could face for disciplinary action are more than someone who has committed first degree murder. Let that sink in.

 

PD faction members will always be held accountable for their actions, which could have lasting effects on their character and even experience in the server; for everyone else, it's just log-off for the day and come back tomorrow after the jail sentence is done. It's that level of accountability, commitment and general quality that the department enforces that means they can be trusted with such a privilege. Yes, it's a privilege, but one that is vital to the continued operations of the department and also one that is highly appreciated by all those that use it. 

I have repeatedly advocated for all of these positions you make examples of (except "always CK when fighting cops" which is ridiculous and silly unless it's reciprocal.) Your assumptions that other characters do not feel the repercussions of crimes they are charged with flies in the face of the fact that people will pay my lawyer upwards of $50,000 to fight these convictions. Never mind that many officers are extremely and routinely negligent in the manner with which they perform their duties - to the point that arresting an individual with absolutely no cause happens on a fairly regular basis with no penalty.

 

The voice channel has been demonstrably misused in the past - that's just a fact, and that's just what we know of. Where is this accountability you keep mentioning?

 

2 hours ago, Westen said:

I think another point people are forgetting is how volatile pursuits are. Even with 100WPM, pursuits change direction, landmarks et cetera far, far too quickly for someone to be able to type. By the type you type out /r 2-LINCOLN-1 westbound on Glory Way, they're eastbound on Bridge Street.

Nobody has forgotten this, but if this is true for the police, it is also true for the criminals... who could easily call up their friends and coordinate a bait-and-switch, or someone to run interference, or any number of potential remedies that could result in a far more interesting situation.

 

If the contention is that only police would have access to group voice capabilities ICly, that is patently false.

If the contention is that non-LSPD channels would not be properly moderated, I would point to the recent example of abuse on the LSPD channel.

 

I fail to see a good faith argument that logically supports allowing one group to use a voice chat feature while denying that to all other individuals.

 

Edited by Smilesville

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Keane    56

The only real thing this thread has achieved is showing that there's several players that have a cops versus robbers attitude. Cops are assumed to be people that love winning no matter what and would fight to the death to keep any advantage they can. Criminals are assumed to be rulebreakers that will jump at the chance to evade police for fun and then die at the end because they can't face consequences. If players keep this kind of attitude, it won't help improve anything. The sooner you see everyone as another player no matter what type of character they have, the sooner we'll see better interactions between everyone. You need to see another player as someone to potentially have enjoyable roleplay with. Just because you have had some bad experiences with someone from a particular faction, doesn't mean that every single faction member is terrible. 

 

For those arguing for IC TS usage for anyone outside of the LSPD, it just won't work even if it's heavily moderated. The only times I've seen people using a radio to coordinate during a pursuit ended up being horrible roleplay and some of the involved players got ajailed too. This isn't limited to one particular group either. Criminals banding together to fight against the police using radios is poor roleplay and is something that has never been done realistically for as long as I've been a staff member here. 

 

The LSPD need voice chat to function properly in dynamic situations. Shootings and pursuits are the two situations where TS is used IC. Even then, as soon as the pursuit is terminated (either due to the suspect being lost or the suspect becoming stationary) or the last person shooting is down or lost, things move completely to in-game communication. If a police officer is using Teamspeak without notifying the people around them, they're powergaming. The exception to this is when they can't type at all. Being involved in a shooting, or a vehicle/foot pursuit counts as not being able to type so they're fine to use Teamspeak without emoting it. In fact, they shouldn't really be emoting Teamspeak usage since that time should be spent typing in-game anyway.

 

Pursuits are situations where it's impossible to type too. Back when I played on LSRP, the legal faction TS went down several times. We were forced to partner up and type. Even as a passenger, it's pretty much impossible to type an accurate location and direction. By the time you type "Northbound Vespucci" they're already travelling in a different area of the city and in a different location. It just won't work in practice. GTA V has a much more complex map than GTA SA's too so it makes it even harder. It just won't work at all.

While the police should have advantages, it should not extend into play to win behavior either. It's a hard balance to meet. TS is one of those necessary evils to make sure the LSPD can do it's job. It's restricted heavily to ensure it doesn't give too much of an advantage. 

 

5 hours ago, Lloydski said:

Oh boy if you're wanting to make things fairer for all then how about:

  • Longer/realistic punishment times for repeat offenders.
  • Enforcing believable wealth and assets on the rest of the server. Specifically cars.
  • Stopping people PKing when they attack cops and die.

Longer punishments are coming when the prison is up. If you feel like a player isn't roleplaying their prison sentences appropriately, make a report to Player Management. 

 

Player Management are actively enforcing realistic wealth portrayal on players. There was about two or three months where I was the only active Player Management member and even then, I managed to guide players in the right direction when it comes to portraying wealth. The others ended up banned for not wanting to roleplay realistically. We have recruited several more admins into Player Management, so we're going to be dealing with players like that much quicker now and we have the capacity to handle more players at once. All you need to do is tip us off if you believe a player isn't roleplaying their wealth correctly and it will be investigated. I agree that it is an issue and it's why I'm pushing for it to be solved.

 

If players are intentionally dying when faced by police, report it in-game or forum report it. Players have to roleplay fear for their lives. If their actions will likely lead them to die, then it's punishable under the powergaming rule unless they're using it as a method to CK their character. Roleplaying exaggerated injuries also falls under powergaming, so if someone is tazed and has a sudden heart attack or dies from a gunshot to the finger, it's punishable. This goes both ways too. If a cop isn't roleplaying fear and gets killed because of it, they get treated like other players.

 

The admin team can't see everything. Two of your above issues can be solved by just reporting it. We can't just approach every player with a sports car and tell them scrap it. We can't teleport over each time a player gets shot by police to investigate if they roleplayed appropriately either. 

2 hours ago, Nathan said:

That wasn't even the first thing to cross my mind. How unbelievably easy is it to create a tracking beacon for your vehicle that pings in the vicinity of other officers?

I covered how it isn't possible to type the required details for a pursuit above. I'll add an additional point and say that many members of the LSPD don't have English as their first language. While they're perfectly capable of understanding and typing the language, it's harder to quickly type accurate information if English isn't your first language. It's unfair on players like that to demand that they have to near constantly type.


To touch on the tracking beacon suggestion, that's more or less something that would fit on a cops and robbers server and not a roleplay one. I started out on a very light roleplay server that had something like this and it was actually a lot worse than Teamspeak. You didn't have to rely on accurate communication to catch a suspect. You just had to follow the red dot on the map even when the lead unit had no idea where he was. 

 

2 hours ago, AmiToSs said:

Let's remove Teamspeak, but let's also have some other things just so we're fair:

If you shoot at cops and die, you CK (yes, every time).

Realistic prison times, maybe in days? (and ofc it pauses when you log out or change char)

Remove all the fancy/300MPH cars, no one's dumb enough to use his high-end sports car to evade police.

If you crash during a pursuit you can lose health and possibly die (and you'll have to CK, as you died during a police chase).

Every crash fucks up your car, that means after smashing a light pole you won't be able to continue the pursuit.

 

While in an ideal world every time someone dies would be a CK, it won't work with the current roleplay level of the server. I always encourage CKs if a character gets killed and it was roleplayed well by all involved. Unfortunately it's just the nature of roleplay servers that many players can't take a loss so they'll refuse to CK. Forcing CKs for every death would cause more drama than good.

 

Prison times are increasing when the prison is deployed.

 

Like I said above, if people are using high end cars to evade police, report it to Player Management. I've personally banned and ajailed players for doing this as it's shit roleplay. You should always have a damn good reason to evade from police since you're risking your life and a much larger prison sentence. Using sports cars because they're faster than police cars is play to win behavior most of the time too. Players need to RP fear of being caught and losing everything. 

Crashes during pursuits need to be roleplayed by everyone involved. We get a lot of reports from the LSPD when someone evading isn't roleplaying crashes and they're dealt with. Someone got banned for it the other day. It just has to be reported. 

If you can find me a group of players that will actually use the in-game radio correctly and not as a chatroom or a way to turn this into a cops and robbers server, I might consider pushing for VOIP usage for those outside of police factions. My own experience of seeing players use a radio tells me there is a long, long way to go before that happens though.

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aldo    52
4 hours ago, Westen said:

There is.

/damages.

What he means is like a temporary like debuff or something. 

For example if you were shot badly in the leg then transported to jail, you should come out having to roleplay your injury still instead of being 100% healed up.

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1357    11
12 minutes ago, aldo said:

What he means is like a temporary like debuff or something. 

For example if you were shot badly in the leg then transported to jail, you should come out having to roleplay your injury still instead of being 100% healed up.

I don't mean that at all. I mean if there are damage system like he says, then we should be going by that and not what someone claims. If one is shot in the head among other areas as well, that's what should be role played and nothing else. This would be a way to determine whether someone would die or survive. Someone said that people role play being shot in the head when they were only shot in the arm, and this is done so they can die and not face future repercussions.

 

I think we cannot just say "This person shot at us to get out of jail" and report any person that does this, because this does not apply for every one and you cannot be 100% sure that is a persons intentions. Instead of rules and more rules, people should genuinely fear death and not fear an out of character jail if otherwise. That is what I mean to say. 

 

Maybe it doesn't have to be severe and a player loses all their assets, but a name change at the most and any vehicles/items, but money can be kept with a new name..

 

I am sure a better system can be thought of that poses a risk for character death and promotes fear and adds value to individual characters. Obviously if a player dies from a death matcher or a scene that is voided, it would not apply to them..

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