knppel Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) On 12/31/2020 at 7:53 PM, roymar said: Allow /bad to be used for events unrelated to business or organizations Again, this is not actually prohibited by rules (see quote and analysis above). "Should not" is not equal to "must not", so as long as common sense is applied and your event or announcement of upcoming opening makes sense to be advertised ic, no one* will complain. On 1/1/2021 at 5:05 PM, tomatoz said: I was told by another administrator that you could use /bad for that, so uhh.... May have to get confirmation from a higher up admin because it seems to be going both ways. Spoiler Same counts for this here too, though: The rules do not clearly state I may under this and that circumstance do this. And that'S a good thing imo: Elsewise we'd need a detailed list to define which classifies as what and what kind of non-business-attached events are worthy to be advertised and all that. Just no. That's why I am also sceptic against rule changes- first thing you'll see is not the op's event, but someone being funny and lawyering ooc about the new rule complaining their troll ad was totally valid and in accordance with new rules. The example above with the car meet also just states this not-a-rule. An adminstrator has told one of us to put an ad off. Not more and not less. That's not applying of a stone-set rule, but admin discretion (an absolute accordance with ad guidelines and the explicit rules that prohibit other stuff). @roymar I don't know what exactly you're planning ic, but personally as mentioned- I'd go ahead with it first if I was sure it's interesting for people to participate in and worthy to be announced, simple as. Worst case: an admin tells you to not do it anymore, and you don't do it anymore. Last but not least, I'd like to highlight one particular point why /bad is crucial to announce events of whatever sort upfront. Just imagine let's say, you'd put a band on stage irl and made them play, and then started to advertise the ongoing concert.... lmao. Why /bad and not /cad? Because it's displayed on discord and thus ten times as important to allow people to plan their rp for the day or week. /bad announcements of upcoming events (such as the Malibu new year's eve party) attract additional audience to the server to be present in time for the related event. People that would maybe not come online at all if the advertisement was only displayed ingame, or only in time for the opening itself and not upfront. People that won't hop on for an ad of an opening now, but that will visit if they know of it upfront and can fully participate. Is this all a meta-level? Hell yes, but that is how advertising also works irl, subconsciously. You're not supposed to reflect on that. You're supposed to buy/come/vote/join the navy/insert your favourite ad here. You can't open an event first and then expect people to come. You have to tell them upfront. Regardless if you mean to make money of it (business) or not. That's why most clubs stay empty- they don't bother ic to tell people upfront when they open, instead expect people to like, care, or remember regular opening times (lol) and so on, or to have nothing to do and just wait for an ad to come up (looooool) to spoonfeed them. I'll stop soon as I'm drifting off to bragging opposed to give the op constructive advice and encouragement for their desired event, but I have to mention, this is just how it works. Promote properly, and people will come. I did not tell anyone to visit my club over discord or steam. I informed people strictly through ic channels. Yes, I had a poster attached to the /bads, Smart move, I know. I totally invented that ic and it's not stolen from Aida, k! ❤️ I was told the other day then the server broke its playercount record. Unless I've missed a bigscale ad campaign Nervous launched (irl), maybe that's related to a properly advertised ic event (which netted me a whopping 1,696;- dollar after expenses as I am a business yay! How good I really just do it for the rp, eh? I'd be pissed elsewise! But no, I'd do it again any day we have new year's eve and a pandemic prevents me from irl party!). Uhem. After this review of the current setup I do indeed suggest an explicit rule rewording that encourages people to advertise events smart. While it doesn't actually prohibit anything ("Should not"), people clearly feel prohibited by the current wording regardless (such as the op), admins are confused over it (and case by case discretion is fair and nice, but it also forces admins to constantly take seemingly arbitrary decisions if applied too often lacking guidelines), and last but not least better ic promotion of popular events benefits the server scenery as a whole. Aka attracting more players, aka more donations. Just because that was mentioned somewhere too. I don't have to care for that as sole player with my package, but I can do the math on it 😉 *One player actually complained about my ad conduct. I wasn't reported, as I broke no actual rule. She tried to backseat moderate me. She might also be operating a nightclub ic. If you're reading this: I learned ic from someone you also planned for new year's eve a few days earlier. For a few minutes Carry pondered to have that place torched. But then she calmed down and got reasonable, decided to go fair and square and just properly promote her own event opposed to ruin someone else's. Thanks a lot for encouraging her to start advertising in time. We all owe this wonderful night to you. And to, well, okay, also me, I pressed for rockets, did the ads, paid the staff from Viktor's money and so on. After typing up this long ass analysis, encouraging words and snappy retorts I realized I'm an idiot and the advertisement rules possibly outdated. They state that /bad is just used to produce a blip for donators (absurd, now that I look at it again- /blip does that, silly! /anim facepalm) It obviously is not: It also posts an ad, that even has enhanced reach compared to /cad (being displayed on discord). For whatever reason (I suspect: outdated) the advertisement rules completely fail to mention this part (because it's technically meta, pssst!) Taking this in account I highly suggest a revision that, as stated above, encourages players -specially those willing to support the server!- to make use of the given tools to organize creative events, regardless of profit orientated or not ic. Okay so from the start. Additions/changes in Red., removed passages scratched out. [Amendements following clarification about ad mechanics in square brackets]. 17) Advertisement Rules The advertisement system is there to assist in the creation of roleplay, and assist in the trade of assets and services. Illegal advertisements are not allowed even if the intent behind them is hidden or attempted to be hidden IC. Players are expected to use other IC methods to distribute illegal items or services. Gambling and card games may only be advertised by businesses that have the licensing to host these games. Private games may be organized using other methods.¹ Regular advertisements (/ad) is for general advertisements that are not associated with businesses or companies. The following are considered acceptable examples of using /ad: buying and selling of properties, businesses, vehicles or items of value; advertisement of events that are not associated with a business or company; advertisement of legal services. You may NOT use /ad for the following under any circumstances; looking for work ads, which can be put on the forums; ads looking for roommates; illegal advertisements of any kind; ads selling or buying legal firearms or other legal weapons outside of a licensed business; asking for rides; making requests; asking questions. Gambling of any sort¹ Company ads (/cad) are used by companies to advertise recruitment, events, when the companies are opening their businesses and other things associated with companies. Business ads (/bad) are a feature for donators used to place a blip on the map to mark a business that is currently open. /bad should only be used for this purpose.² to enhance advertising of their ic activities, products or business venues of public relevance (i.e. business openings and recruitment drives, public events, announcements of upcoming events, factual researched news publishments by approved publishers⁷ and so on).³ [Being further privileged over private and company ads by display on discord, it is particularly important to be considerate wether an event or business opening does need the additional publicity, or if a different method is equally appropriate (/blip, /cad).]⁴ You must pick one type of advertisement (/ad, /cad or /bad) and stick to it.⁵ Players may not use other advertisement types to get around the scripted cooldown. Players also may not use other players to avoid cooldowns. Advertisements must not be spammed. Players are expected to be courteous when advertising. Posting several ads for the same business in a short period of time is considered a breach of this rule. When advertising, ads must only use fully in-character terms. Selling cars that are "maxed out", or using similar terms such as fully upgraded or decked out, is considered to be a breach of this rule. You should describe it in a proper IC way rather than using "maxed out" to tell other players that it cannot be upgraded any further by the script. For properties, default interiors and fully mapped interiors should not be advertised differently. A singleplayer or GTA Online interior that is furnished is still considered furnished. Adding additional objects to one of those interiors or making an interior from scratch should not be the factor to determine if something is furnished or not when advertising. Unfurnished properties may be refered to as 'sub-standard'.⁶ Examples of breaking the rule: making an advertisement to purchase firearms; advertising the sale of knives or lock picks when the person selling does not have a licensed business to do so; advertising the selling of marijuana; making an advertisement looking for a date or along the lines of "a fun time"; making an ad about looking for an eagle from the desert, implying you're looking for a Desert Eagle; advertising the search of a hitman to take someone out. Explanation for the changes below, what's standing as is should be common sense imho anyway, does not fail to take in account changes to server mechanism like the /bad passage and also doesn't further prohibit op's suggestion for event promotion, if nothing slipped me. 1.) is obviously so obscure neither players nor staff seem to be fully aware (at least I see regular ads for gambling privately). This must be more highlighted to raise awareness both for players as well as to encourage staff to prohibit it. 2.) is outdated as that's not all that /bad does. While the blip is of course of relevance, that can be organized ic (if you got no platinum donator in your crew: /ad or /cad "Looking for professional advertiser for business opening"). See points 4.) and 5.) respectively. 3.) is the part mostly concerning the op's suggestion that expands /bad to be considerately used when it's the most appropriate measure defined by it's market audience reach (which is further than/cad due to discord). Obviously all this doesn't outrule admin discretion and the right to tell people off if the fifteenth car meet this week is deemed not interesting enough (no pun intended, random example picked, I could as much say club- you don't wanna know how many failed openings Carry observed in her life to run Malibu rock solid). 4.) Takes in account the actual benefit of /bad in contrary to what the outdated point 2.) claims, and encourages players to be considerate with their extra target audience reach. In my case this means of course, use as effectively as possible 😉. Edit: Obligate due to /cad actually being displayed on discord for donators as well as /ad generally being displayed there, see posts below. 5.) is impractical for a variety of reasons: Most notably, sticking to /bad is not the most favourable thing, and hence flexibility should be allowed. As it stands, /bads are hard fought for as they're the typical relevant tool to advertise any kind of business (or event. It's happening all the time. And I think it's okay and should be encouraged, anyway, repeating myself here). If anything, players should be encouraged to switch to /cad once they have their desired blip to let other gold donators use it too, if further expanding the reach of their ad is not the primary goal (specially when it is open already). Last but not least: I might decide spontanously to buy a decorated xmas car or the likes for my xmas party, while already advertising the opening later tonight (of course both through /cad and /bad in turns, sue me, I did it over the course of days and left hour-long-gaps in between , my roleplay lawyer Dr. Dr. Jester says that's legit as I relogged a few times in between occasionaly). Of course that's my private fun to buy a lolcar ic even if for business deco uses. Or should I advertise what cars I want for the Malibu in /bad? I'd think that's a tad stupid, even if it would give me additional attention. We're not a car show... or... are we next...? stay tuned 😏 If I was a narrow minded part time rule lawyer that told myself to not use /bad unless I am already open and empty, I'd also tell myself I could advertise for this car through /cads for the business. Just saying. Pun intended. 6.) should be ammended as custom interiors are looked for and it eases up player orientation. Aside the actual suggestion, but while we're at it. It's a simple solution that's fair enough. A standard gtao "luxury" apartment is substandard in the good towers, and out of place (and thus to be customized) in more run down buildings. Just my 2 cents on estate ads after looking for a mansion with tennis court and pool since 8 weeks ( I didn't put up ads, I contracted an estate agency). Oh boy, I hope they don't call houses tomorrow after Carry just spent all her money on a fabulous new car, she'd have to get some fast. Seriously speaking, while one can easily orientate oneself on prices due to everything being regulated (and only custom places being worth more), this is a chore not everyone necessarily wants to dig into. Like, you know, some people just want to have the stuff they want, not to figure out how much pennies estimatedly this is gonna cost upfront - okay okay I stop 😁 7.) You know you want it and you need it, subconsciously if not reflected P.S. Reviewing all relevant distributed information, I have to further note that the disclaimer in the Platinum package on the ucp is falsely stating both /bad and /cad get displayed on discord, which is not the case, only /bad and /ad having this additional display. Edited January 3, 2021 by knppel Link to comment
tomatoz Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 8 hours ago, knppel said: Again, this is not actually prohibited by rules (see quote and analysis above). "Should not" is not equal to "must not", so as long as common sense is applied and your event or announcement of upcoming opening makes sense to be advertised ic, no one* will complain. Reveal hidden contents Same counts for this here too, though: The rules do not clearly state I may under this and that circumstance do this. And that'S a good thing imo: Elsewise we'd need a detailed list to define which classifies as what and what kind of non-business-attached events are worthy to be advertised and all that. Just no. That's why I am also sceptic against rule changes- first thing you'll see is not the op's event, but someone being funny and lawyering ooc about the new rule complaining their troll ad was totally valid and in accordance with new rules. The example above with the car meet also just states this not-a-rule. An adminstrator has told one of us to put an ad off. Not more and not less. That's not applying of a stone-set rule, but admin discretion (an absolute accordance with ad guidelines and the explicit rules that prohibit other stuff). @roymar I don't know what exactly you're planning ic, but personally as mentioned- I'd go ahead with it first if I was sure it's interesting for people to participate in and worthy to be announced, simple as. Worst case: an admin tells you to not do it anymore, and you don't do it anymore. Last but not least, I'd like to highlight one particular point why /bad is crucial to announce events of whatever sort upfront. Just imagine let's say, you'd put a band on stage irl and made them play, and then started to advertise the ongoing concert.... lmao. Why /bad and not /cad? Because it's displayed on discord and thus ten times as important to allow people to plan their rp for the day or week. /bad announcements of upcoming events (such as the Malibu new year's eve party) attract additional audience to the server to be present in time for the related event. People that would maybe not come online at all if the advertisement was only displayed ingame, or only in time for the opening itself and not upfront. People that won't hop on for an ad of an opening now, but that will visit if they know of it upfront and can fully participate. Is this all a meta-level? Hell yes, but that is how advertising also works irl, subconsciously. You're not supposed to reflect on that. You're supposed to buy/come/vote/join the navy/insert your favourite ad here. You can't open an event first and then expect people to come. You have to tell them upfront. Regardless if you mean to make money of it (business) or not. That's why most clubs stay empty- they don't bother ic to tell people upfront when they open, instead expect people to like, care, or remember regular opening times (lol) and so on, or to have nothing to do and just wait for an ad to come up (looooool) to spoonfeed them. I'll stop soon as I'm drifting off to bragging opposed to give the op constructive advice and encouragement for their desired event, but I have to mention, this is just how it works. Promote properly, and people will come. I did not tell anyone to visit my club over discord or steam. I informed people strictly through ic channels. Yes, I had a poster attached to the /bads, Smart move, I know. I totally invented that ic and it's not stolen from Aida, k! ❤️ I was told the other day then the server broke its playercount record. Unless I've missed a bigscale ad campaign Nervous launched (irl), maybe that's related to a properly advertised ic event (which netted me a whopping 1,696;- dollar after expenses as I am a business yay! How good I really just do it for the rp, eh? I'd be pissed elsewise! But no, I'd do it again any day we have new year's eve and a pandemic prevents me from irl party!). Uhem. After this review of the current setup I do indeed suggest an explicit rule rewording that encourages people to advertise events smart. While it doesn't actually prohibit anything ("Should not"), people clearly feel prohibited by the current wording regardless (such as the op), admins are confused over it (and case by case discretion is fair and nice, but it also forces admins to constantly take seemingly arbitrary decisions if applied too often lacking guidelines), and last but not least better ic promotion of popular events benefits the server scenery as a whole. Aka attracting more players, aka more donations. Just because that was mentioned somewhere too. I don't have to care for that as sole player with my package, but I can do the math on it 😉 *One player actually complained about my ad conduct. I wasn't reported, as I broke no actual rule. She tried to backseat moderate me. She might also be operating a nightclub ic. If you're reading this: I learned ic from someone you also planned for new year's eve a few days earlier. For a few minutes Carry pondered to have that place torched. But then she calmed down and got reasonable, decided to go fair and square and just properly promote her own event opposed to ruin someone else's. Thanks a lot for encouraging her to start advertising in time. We all owe this wonderful night to you. And to, well, okay, also me, I pressed for rockets, did the ads, paid the staff from Viktor's money and so on. After typing up this long ass analysis, encouraging words and snappy retorts I realized I'm an idiot and the advertisement rules possibly outdated. They state that /bad is just used to produce a blip for donators (absurd, now that I look at it again- /blip does that, silly! /anim facepalm) It obviously is not: It also posts an ad, that even has enhanced reach compared to /cad (being displayed on discord). For whatever reason (I suspect: outdated) the advertisement rules completely fail to mention this part (because it's technically meta, pssst!) Taking this in account I highly suggest a revision that, as stated above, encourages players -specially those willing to support the server!- to make use of the given tools to organize creative events, regardless of profit orientated or not ic. Okay so from the start. Additions/changes in Red., removed passages scratched out. 17) Advertisement Rules The advertisement system is there to assist in the creation of roleplay, and assist in the trade of assets and services. Illegal advertisements are not allowed even if the intent behind them is hidden or attempted to be hidden IC. Players are expected to use other IC methods to distribute illegal items or services. Gambling and card games may only be advertised by businesses that have the licensing to host these games. Private games may be organized using other methods.¹ Regular advertisements (/ad) is for general advertisements that are not associated with businesses or companies. The following are considered acceptable examples of using /ad: buying and selling of properties, businesses, vehicles or items of value; advertisement of events that are not associated with a business or company; advertisement of legal services. You may NOT use /ad for the following under any circumstances; looking for work ads, which can be put on the forums; ads looking for roommates; illegal advertisements of any kind; ads selling or buying legal firearms or other legal weapons outside of a licensed business; asking for rides; making requests; asking questions. Gambling of any sort¹ Company ads (/cad) are used by companies to advertise recruitment, events, when the companies are opening their businesses and other things associated with companies. Business ads (/bad) are a feature for donators used to place a blip on the map to mark a business that is currently open. /bad should only be used for this purpose.² to enhance advertising of their ic activities, products or business venues of public relevance (i.e. business openings and recruitment drives, public events, announcements of upcoming events, factual researched news publishments by approved publishers⁷ and so on).³ Being further privileged over private and company ads by display on discord, it is particularly important to be considerate wether an event or business opening does need the additional publicity, or if a different method is equally appropriate (/blip, /cad).⁴ You must pick one type of advertisement (/ad, /cad or /bad) and stick to it.⁵ Players may not use other advertisement types to get around the scripted cooldown. Players also may not use other players to avoid cooldowns. Advertisements must not be spammed. Players are expected to be courteous when advertising. Posting several ads for the same business in a short period of time is considered a breach of this rule. When advertising, ads must only use fully in-character terms. Selling cars that are "maxed out", or using similar terms such as fully upgraded or decked out, is considered to be a breach of this rule. You should describe it in a proper IC way rather than using "maxed out" to tell other players that it cannot be upgraded any further by the script. For properties, default interiors and fully mapped interiors should not be advertised differently. A singleplayer or GTA Online interior that is furnished is still considered furnished. Adding additional objects to one of those interiors or making an interior from scratch should not be the factor to determine if something is furnished or not when advertising. Unfurnished properties may be refered to as 'sub-standard'.⁶ Examples of breaking the rule: making an advertisement to purchase firearms; advertising the sale of knives or lock picks when the person selling does not have a licensed business to do so; advertising the selling of marijuana; making an advertisement looking for a date or along the lines of "a fun time"; making an ad about looking for an eagle from the desert, implying you're looking for a Desert Eagle; advertising the search of a hitman to take someone out. Explanation for the changes below, what's standing as is should be common sense imho anyway, does not fail to take in account changes to server mechanism like the /bad passage and also doesn't further prohibit op's suggestion for event promotion, if nothing slipped me. 1.) is obviously so obscure neither players nor staff seem to be fully aware (at least I see regular ads for gambling privately). This must be more highlighted to raise awareness both for players as well as to encourage staff to prohibit it. 2.) is outdated as that's not all that /bad does. While the blip is of course of relevance, that can be organized ic (if you got no platinum donator in your crew: /ad or /cad "Looking for professional advertiser for business opening"). See points 4.) and 5.) respectively. 3.) is the part mostly concerning the op's suggestion that expands /bad to be considerately used when it's the most appropriate measure defined by it's market audience reach (which is further than/cad due to discord). Obviously all this doesn't outrule admin discretion and the right to tell people off if the fifteenth car meet this week is deemed not interesting enough (no pun intended, random example picked, I could as much say club- you don't wanna know how many failed openings Carry observed in her life to run Malibu rock solid). 4.) Takes in account the actual benefit of /bad in contrary to what the outdated point 2.) claims, and encourages players to be considerate with their extra target audience reach. In my case this means of course, use as effectively as possible 😉 5.) is impractical for a variety of reasons: Most notably, sticking to /bad is not the most favourable thing, and hence flexibility should be allowed. As it stands, /bads are hard fought for as they're the typical relevant tool to advertise any kind of business (or event. It's happening all the time. And I think it's okay and should be encouraged, anyway, repeating myself here). If anything, players should be encouraged to switch to /cad once they have their desired blip to let other gold donators use it too, if further expanding the reach of their ad is not the primary goal (specially when it is open already). Last but not least: I might decide spontanously to buy a decorated xmas car or the likes for my xmas party, while already advertising the opening later tonight (of course both through /cad and /bad in turns, sue me, I did it over the course of days and left hour-long-gaps in between , my roleplay lawyer Dr. Dr. Jester says that's legit as I relogged a few times in between occasionaly). Of course that's my private fun to buy a lolcar ic even if for business deco uses. Or should I advertise what cars I want for the Malibu in /bad? I'd think that's a tad stupid, even if it would give me additional attention. We're not a car show... or... are we next...? stay tuned 😏 If I was a narrow minded part time rule lawyer that told myself to not use /bad unless I am already open and empty, I'd also tell myself I could advertise for this car through /cads for the business. Just saying. Pun intended. 6.) should be ammended as custom interiors are looked for and it eases up player orientation. Aside the actual suggestion, but while we're at it. It's a simple solution that's fair enough. A standard gtao "luxury" apartment is substandard in the good towers, and out of place (and thus to be customized) in more run down buildings. Just my 2 cents on estate ads after looking for a mansion with tennis court and pool since 8 weeks ( I didn't put up ads, I contracted an estate agency). Oh boy, I hope they don't call houses tomorrow after Carry just spent all her money on a fabulous new car, she'd have to get some fast. Seriously speaking, while one can easily orientate oneself on prices due to everything being regulated (and only custom places being worth more), this is a chore not everyone necessarily wants to dig into. Like, you know, some people just want to have the stuff they want, not to figure out how much pennies estimatedly this is gonna cost upfront - okay okay I stop 😁 7.) You know you want it and you need it, subconsciously if not reflected P.S. Reviewing all relevant distributed information, I have to further note that the disclaimer in the Platinum package on the ucp is falsely stating both /bad and /cad get displayed on discord, which is not the case, only /bad and /ad having this additional display. Interesting.. Also /cad does display on the #ic-business-ad channel in the Discord if you’re a donator. It just has “[Business Advertisement]” even if it’s an company advertisement for whatever reason. Link to comment
knppel Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 44 minutes ago, tomatoz said: Also /cad does display on the #ic-business-ad channel in the Discord if you’re a donator. It just has “[Business Advertisement]” even if it’s an company advertisement for whatever reason I was going to check that as I was not sure, thanks for clarifying. The information displayed in the donator info box is false regardless as obviously private ads too get displayed there (donator only?) Link to comment
tomatoz Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 9 minutes ago, knppel said: I was going to check that as I was not sure, thanks for clarifying. The information displayed in the donator info box is false regardless as obviously private ads too get displayed there (donator only?) The /ad’s always get displayed. Link to comment
knppel Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 4 minutes ago, tomatoz said: The /ad’s always get displayed. Thanks once more for clarifying, and that's topic for it's own suggestion as it's script and not rules, but I do wonder why private ads are given additional clout and business/company ones are restricted for donators - as Bill Clinton said a long time ago: It's the economy, stupid 1 Link to comment
Nervous Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 You can use /bad - it's recommended to use /blip though. Link to comment
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