Deathmatchings 'Poor Reason to Kill'

[1357]

10 minutes ago, Mantle said:

I've never seen a server where the deathmatch rule has literally covered every single situation where you can kill someone because it's literally impossible. There is countless situations which would need to be added and the list would be never ending which is simply just not beneficial to server growth (as no new player fancies reading 1,000,000 examples of when you can kill someone) and it's ultimately a pain in the ass.

 

The standard rule is in place and most people seem to know when and when they cannot shoot someone. If there is confusion, it goes to admin discretion (which are the people who have put in effort and are trusted to make a proper decision on whether the reason to kill was valid or not) and that is the case on literally every server I've ever played on, including this one and it works so I don't think it needs to be changed.

Of course i'm not saying well written and given examples is efficient or even the way to do it, i'm only pointing out it's definitely not impossible but that's not the solution i'm advocating for either. You'd have to read my post to really understand what i'm saying here, because otherwise i'm simply repeating myself.. but if you don't have the time at the moment like you've mentioned, well then read it if you care to when you do find yourself with the time and also read it word for word and line for line because you're pointing out only one of the many things i mention in my posts which leads me to believe you're unintentionally missing things and skimming over it for the sake of saving time.

 

But if the mentality we're going to continue to have is "It's just not possible man" then we're going to be stuck in the same cycle that every other server suffers from and the quality of role play in many more aspects is never going to be uncovered and in that case, it really makes us no different than a majority of all the other servers, and in its current state, what almost looks like a clone instead of its own thing. Think of how many times you watch a trailer of a role play server, if you will: It points out how their differences in the server and all of this propaganda, but then when you log on.. it's really just all the same thing. It's just one server has higher standards for English proficiency or whatever the language they're based on may be and an entirely different management. But the way the server plays out and the immersion it brings to the table is all the same dull and mind numbing stuff.

 

And to be fair, i don't think majority of people do know. The amount or influx of reports, a lot of people don't seem to know whether their death was justified or not because you have this rule that says practically everything is poor, but then you also have people who report out of spite and there's a lot of those. This 'standard' part of the rule is not nearly concise enough or a solid rule in itself for reasons explained earlier and it doesn't state that it takes situations into account and from personal experience in itself, it didn't apply. The server could be pushing and finding ways to handle and take the work load off this 'rule' and resort to it in character. Because again.. serving months or weeks or however long sentences may be when and if a well established prison arrives and sentence lengths are increased, it would serve as a much harsher punishment to that character than what a 60 minute time out in ajail would. Again don't get it misunderstood, i'm not saying every single death should be handled in character, including intentional rule breakers, but situations like the example given above should.

 

The real problem lies within the police and the tools they're given and how they're able to respond and handle it.

[Roulette]

Nah people in general are pretty quick to jump to gun use. 

[1357]

3 minutes ago, Roulette said:

Nah people in general are pretty quick to jump to gun use. 

In the US? Damn right they are. 

[1357]

Come on man, could have posted it everywhere but here.

[Roulette]

4 hours ago, 1357 said:

In the US? Damn right they are. 

This argument has been stressed to death in every roleplay community I've been a part of. There's essentially one type of player whose style of rolelay is interchangeable and found in all text based RP communities. These are the types of people that usually show little to no regard for their life and try to portray their character as an archetypal lovechild of Arnold Schwarzenegger and James Bond, but his background story consists of growing up in a broken household in an impoverished part of Los Santos. Another characterization attributed to these players' characters is the complete lack of ability to show any emotion whatsoever, a blatant refusal to elaborate on his character's emotional side; so by extension, roleplay with players of this ilk tends to restrict itself due to the lack of elaboration of the character itself. A third attribute of players that comes about as a result of their so called "development" of their characters is trigger-happiness. They'll shoot up anyone who looks at them wrongly, insults them while they're alone, and are quick to draw their gun out in the open with no fear of any repercussions. Their excuse tends to be: "But in real life gangsters are always killing people, so why can't I?", and my response to that is that it essentially kills any fruitful RP or development of characters in street gangs. We're playing a very niche game mode with a limited number of players.They are essentially dehumanizing themselves, and make the excuse that "just because it happens in real life I should be able to do it here." People should make an active effort to show the more human sides of their characters, and look for an alternative to solve their disputes purely for the sake of role-play and immersion. If more people did that, then maybe we could begin to have a discussion on the leniency of gun-related issues on the server, and what counts as a legitimate scenario in order to draw a gun and shoot another player. But most people don't care about the most important part which is character development and passive roleplay.

[1357]

1 hour ago, Roulette said:

This argument has been stressed to death in every roleplay community I've been a part of. There's essentially one type of player whose style of rolelay is interchangeable and found in all text based RP communities. These are the types of people that usually show little to no regard for their life and try to portray their character as an archetypal lovechild of Arnold Schwarzenegger and James Bond, but his background story consists of growing up in a broken household in an impoverished part of Los Santos. Another characterization attributed to these players' characters is the complete lack of ability to show any emotion whatsoever, a blatant refusal to elaborate on his character's emotional side; so by extension, roleplay with players of this ilk tends to restrict itself due to the lack of elaboration of the character itself. A third attribute of players that comes about as a result of their so called "development" of their characters is trigger-happiness. They'll shoot up anyone who looks at them wrongly, insults them while they're alone, and are quick to draw their gun out in the open with no fear of any repercussions. Their excuse tends to be: "But in real life gangsters are always killing people, so why can't I?", and my response to that is that it essentially kills any fruitful RP or development of characters in street gangs.

 

Want to know what i find to be the problem? Because at the end of the day and while i see where you're coming from and while something of this sort have been stressed in similar communities, there's a reason for it: Because all those servers faced the same issue, and they did so because they continued rehashing the same style of play over, and over, and over again. They basically just said fuck it and took all of its rules and foundation because well, if it works for them it should work for us, right? But then all we are is just playing the same thing except under a different name, with different people and with different management.

 

So, do you believe that there aren't any people who's minds are systematically twisted, and aren't numb and find it difficult to describe their emotions? Because believe it or not, there are people who truly possess the inability to identify their own emotions. It's called Alexithymia in case you're curious, and is there something wrong with that if a player wishes to play this type of character? In your opinion? Because in mine, i see nothing wrong with it and if they try to use this in an advantageous way, well then they should understand that because of how uncommon it is, it's going to result in a character kill.

 

You know how when a player faces conflict with police and when that player has no where else to go? So they resort to pulling their guns and shooting so they can avoid the tedious hours of sitting in a jail cell in game. Well like someone mentioned on this thread, if they realistically stand no chance and wish to in essence, suicide, then let them. But let them do it knowing that character isn't going to just /acceptdeath and respawn and try to use it as an easy way out of avoiding punishment. Because again, due to how uncommon that is, they're going to need their character killed to balance it out for both sides.

 

From what i understand is you're pointing out all of these possible character personalities and point out the flaws in them and why they're not allowed, but then don't you also believe that's just limiting people from expanding and tapping in on real issues, such as mental health? So long as they aren't using it to benefit themselves and to gain an advantage, it's completely fine and i'm sure to an extent that's how it is now, but also if they do decide to flip it and use it to their benefit, that they'll lose their character in the event of which the outcome is them dying.

 

1 hour ago, Roulette said:

People should make an active effort to show the more human sides of their characters, and look for an alternative to solve their disputes purely for the sake of role-play and immersion

But that is the opposite of immersion and we're in a city and a country where gun crime is notorious. The reason why it's such a problem is because majority of players get away with crime, and no role play 99.9% of the time comes out of it afterwards. Justice is hardly served on the legal side of things. Police have very limited methods for identifying or tracing or even bother with opening cases, and going to crime scenes for evidence. Then, there's no real jurisdiction and prosecution to balance out people who may commit crime. While crime that some may consider petty, it's still within realistic boundaries. 

 

Furthermore, why is it that in the event when hypothetically a criminal is captured, it's this one sided procedure of receiving handcuffs tightened against their wrists, then taken down to a station in a cell and thrown in there after the police 'add up all the charges'? Then the police roll back out to their cruisers and rinse and repeat. You want immersive? Then whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? We have judges and somewhat of a court on this server, so instead of just instantly giving max time and adding up these charges, throw these people in a cell and provide real time court dates, and it can be handled through a mixture of in game and predominately through the forum because not everyone is able to get in game obviously at the same time.

 

Then you have the attorneys and lawyers, of which also exist on this server and had it be a real faction with nice pay and benefits, then i'm sure there'd be a higher influx of people interested in brushing up on Law. This all creates much more role play, it allows balance and gives players the chance to fight for their freedom instead of instantly being guilty with charges stained on their record.

 

If you want immersion, we're far away from immersion and people just read this and think "This is impossible, there's no way we can achieve this". There isn't any way with a defeatist mindset. Then there's people who just don't want change, they're scared of change even though that change would push the immersion to a higher level and balance out some of the issues that like you say, people have been complaining about for a decade now.

 

There's so much more role play to be tapped on and it's like we don't even care. This server is mostly following in the footsteps of something else and only changing a few things such as higher standards, instead of finding ways to innovate and lead and prove it is possible.

 

Some people just don't care, but they don't care because they don't know how much better this can be.

 

 

 

[Coni]

In general the more words you use the less people you reach. Just as a rule of thumb I tend to forget myself. 

 

While gang bangers IRL do shoot more they also live less. Which plays into the fact, that this server does not allow for the same natural consequences. Here's why: 

 

1. Property / Economic loss is negated by namechanges

2. Character loss is not present (rightfully so) due to a lack of risk in your life. 

 

So what can you do? The punishment route:

Spoiler

1. You increase the punishments both for being trigger happy as well as getting murked frequently. Maybe 3 deaths and then a 15/30 day cooldown and you're out until the timer ticked down. Allows characters to exist indefinitely (unless CKed) but still punishes players who are trigger happy and get into violent interactions more than reasonable - even for a "gangsta"

2. Property loss upon death. Lose everything you have on hand and lose 10% of your bank account. If you're rich af, get yourself protection or avoid areas that are unsafe. If you have less to lose, you lose less. 

3. Robbery & Murder restrictions for certain areas. Areas where people tend to have less wealth you usually also find less police cooperation, crime reporting, etc. But if someone commits a robbery / murder in the hills of vinewood there should be a system to acommodate the fact that a.) the suspect would propably be called in even before doing something b.) the neighborhood watch-type of people would have NO HESISTANCE at all to call the police and c.) the risk of being caught regardless of the preperations you took (*cough* like doing it 7am server time *cough*) should be immensly high. 

 

 

The rule route: 

Spoiler

Forbid reckless character traits regardless of character concept. Only allow for murder / gun usage when you can prove evidently that this was the only and last resort for your character. Murdered someone after robbing him? Not the case - punishment. Got into an argument with someone, he flicks the knife out, you brandish your gun to warn him, he storms at you, you shoot - good case. 

 

I personally like the first approach more as it still allows for free character development and decision making. Just because I am against generic character loss upon death that doesn't mean there shouldn't be downsides to playing the tough guy. 

[1357]

5 hours ago, Coni said:

In general the more words you use the less people you reach. Just as a rule of thumb I tend to forget myself. 

 

While gang bangers IRL do shoot more they also live less. Which plays into the fact, that this server does not allow for the same natural consequences. Here's why: 

 

1. Property / Economic loss is negated by namechanges

2. Character loss is not present (rightfully so) due to a lack of risk in your life. 

 

So what can you do? The punishment route:

  Reveal hidden contents

1. You increase the punishments both for being trigger happy as well as getting murked frequently. Maybe 3 deaths and then a 15/30 day cooldown and you're out until the timer ticked down. Allows characters to exist indefinitely (unless CKed) but still punishes players who are trigger happy and get into violent interactions more than reasonable - even for a "gangsta"

2. Property loss upon death. Lose everything you have on hand and lose 10% of your bank account. If you're rich af, get yourself protection or avoid areas that are unsafe. If you have less to lose, you lose less. 

3. Robbery & Murder restrictions for certain areas. Areas where people tend to have less wealth you usually also find less police cooperation, crime reporting, etc. But if someone commits a robbery / murder in the hills of vinewood there should be a system to acommodate the fact that a.) the suspect would propably be called in even before doing something b.) the neighborhood watch-type of people would have NO HESISTANCE at all to call the police and c.) the risk of being caught regardless of the preperations you took (*cough* like doing it 7am server time *cough*) should be immensly high. 

 

 

The rule route: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Forbid reckless character traits regardless of character concept. Only allow for murder / gun usage when you can prove evidently that this was the only and last resort for your character. Murdered someone after robbing him? Not the case - punishment. Got into an argument with someone, he flicks the knife out, you brandish your gun to warn him, he storms at you, you shoot - good case. 

 

I personally like the first approach more as it still allows for free character development and decision making. Just because I am against generic character loss upon death that doesn't mean there shouldn't be downsides to playing the tough guy. 

Well that's up to them whether they want to read it or not and it doesn't bother me. If someone wants to have a discussion, great.

 

Anyway, the last thing we should be pushing for is cool downs and asset wipes, as character kills would already handle that which is also something that should be pushed and it can be made to work with the right idea. I've read your suggestions, and they are honestly all the wrong routes to take and do nothing for solving the problem at hand. If you're asking me in particular "what can we do", read this, again:

14 hours ago, 1357 said:

But that is the opposite of immersion and we're in a city and a country where gun crime is notorious. The reason why it's such a problem is because majority of players get away with crime, and no role play 99.9% of the time comes out of it afterwards. Justice is hardly served on the legal side of things. Police have very limited methods for identifying or tracing or even bother with opening cases, and going to crime scenes for evidence. Then, there's no real jurisdiction and prosecution to balance out people who may commit crime. While crime that some may consider petty, it's still within realistic boundaries. 

 

Furthermore, why is it that in the event when hypothetically a criminal is captured, it's this one sided procedure of receiving handcuffs tightened against their wrists, then taken down to a station in a cell and thrown in there after the police 'add up all the charges'? Then the police roll back out to their cruisers and rinse and repeat. You want immersive? Then whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? We have judges and somewhat of a court on this server, so instead of just instantly giving max time and adding up these charges, throw these people in a cell and provide real time court dates, and it can be handled through a mixture of in game and predominately through the forum because not everyone is able to get in game obviously at the same time.

 

Then you have the attorneys and lawyers, of which also exist on this server and had it be a real faction with nice pay and benefits, then i'm sure there'd be a higher influx of people interested in brushing up on Law. This all creates much more role play, it allows balance and gives players the chance to fight for their freedom instead of instantly being guilty with charges stained on their record.

or any of my other posts on this thread. The rule route you're suggesting is already what exists currently. Character concept shouldn't be at a point entirely limited, and we shouldn't have this part of a rule that outright suggests and considers all retaliation to be poor unless retaliated upon physically first or a persons life was physically endangered first. That's not how situations in life always unfolds, and people who have this mindset of try everything first like beating the shit out of them, or making phony 911 calls, or i don't know whatever else someone thinks of. People in the streets don't care to throw hands, they'll fucking shoot you. They're ruthless and do not care about trying every option in attempts to sizzle the dispute before resorting to doing so.

 

All what you suggests introduces is more rules and more ooc barriers. Instead of thinking of ways to let it all play out organically and better put, handled in game in character. What i've mentioned above i believe will be able to assess this issue and help balance it out without the need for an admin to come and say that's not realistic.

5 hours ago, Coni said:

The rule route: 

  Hide contents

Forbid reckless character traits regardless of character concept. Only allow for murder / gun usage when you can prove evidently that this was the only and last resort for your character. Murdered someone after robbing him? Not the case - punishment. Got into an argument with someone, he flicks the knife out, you brandish your gun to warn him, he storms at you, you shoot - good case. 

 

I personally like the first approach more as it still allows for free character development and decision making. Just because I am against generic character loss upon death that doesn't mean there shouldn't be downsides to playing the tough guy. 

What you suggest allows players to act out these characters and to say and act without much risk directed at themselves. It grants these players the freedom to act and say in such a way without any consequence for their actions and words. Would you agree? Do you believe that if you walked up to a African American gang banger and started emphasizing on the word nigger and insinuating that you'll kill him, and then instead of using a subliminal you'll outright say so, and after it's all said and done, you'll simply be able to walk away completely unscathed? That they'll just brush it off because it's only an insult and it's not a big deal. Truth is, we're forcing everyone to play as if we're all level headed, completely understand and take into consideration what's right and what's wrong. It's as if we're forced to play as robots and we're not supposed to have any real emotion because of this.

 

There's a reason why there's Non Criminal Homicides or in other words, Self Defense and Criminal Homicides. What you suggest is saying murder is acceptable so long as it's self defense, and that's to a point completely true in legal standards. But what you also suggest is entirely taking away criminal homicides just because that person didn't already have a gun aimed up behind their ear, or against their temple, or because they cannot prove(?) it.

 

On the topic of proving..

14 hours ago, 1357 said:

You want immersive? Then whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? We have judges and somewhat of a court on this server, so instead of just instantly giving max time and adding up these charges, throw these people in a cell and provide real time court dates, and it can be handled through a mixture of in game and predominately through the forum because not everyone is able to get in game obviously at the same time.

 

Then you have the attorneys and lawyers, of which also exist on this server and had it be a real faction with nice pay and benefits, then i'm sure there'd be a higher influx of people interested in brushing up on Law. This all creates much more role play, it allows balance and gives players the chance to fight for their freedom instead of instantly being guilty with charges stained on their record.

 

If you want immersion, we're far away from immersion and people just read this and think "This is impossible, there's no way we can achieve this". There isn't any way with a defeatist mindset. Then there's people who just don't want change, they're scared of change even though that change would push the immersion to a higher level and balance out some of the issues that like you say, people have been complaining about for a decade now.

We don't necessarily need to completely rely on a static rule that dictates what's poor and what's not especially in a world where people get shot or murdered over way pettier things every day. Some people don't even have to give a reason and still die. I'm suggesting this rule first of all takes into consideration the situation and also the type of character being played and think about how it would affect that particular person in comparison to X.

 

I'm also suggesting that developers start prioritizing systems for police and detectives to help do their jobs better. Right now all they're capable of achieving is hoping to find these criminal acts in the moment and throwing the persons responsible in a cell after adding up charges.

 

But then we have people talking about fruitful role play and that isn't fruitful role play. There's so much more role play that could go on with these situations, and not to mention that jail time or prison time is going to serve in a much harsher sense than what an hour in ajail does.

 

We can start really providing juries which already exists, prosecution for some reason does not exist, while providing court sentences and making court hearings mandatory. In the mean time, until their court date, they're thrown in a cell indefinitely until their day of court and if found guilty, then proceed with the sentencing. Not only is it harsh both ic and ooc, it gives a much more realistic depth and approach. Do you think these people who role play in gangs are going to want to go through this process and with sufficient evidence, only to be found guilty? 

 

But right now, everything is dumbed down and one sided. As it stands right now, there is no innocent until proven guilty. There is no way for police to balance and filter out the crime in the server and all we're doing is limiting ourselves through this part of a rule that also limits character concepts. Figure out ways to balance it in game, so long as they're not clearly on the server with the sole intention of breaking rules.

[Coni]

tl;dr. 

 

Sorry but I value my time and I have learned - the best ideas can be explained in simple words. I know you suffer from the same trait I suffered (and often still do) from - I love to read / listen myself speak. Think thrice about what you want to get through, formulate it simple. If you don't care then why suggest something anyway? If you care then do it consumer-friendly so you actually reach people you need to reach for a change to be possible. Otherwise this is just a circle jerk that leads nowhere. 

 

Flooding people with useless filler formulations is also not really adding to any form of discussion. It's just bloating. 

 

I read way too much "IRL this" and "DO YOU THINK IRL XYZ WOULD HAPPEN?!" - nope, not going to engage this any further. Please "dumb down" your suggestion to a format I don't have to fight myself through just to engage you in contributing to a solution. Remove 80% of that IRL-filler bullshit and maybe also use simple sentence structures. 

 

If you manage to actually formulate your solution based on how it helps roleplay quality AND gameplay without using IRL as a buzzword then I might be able to engage this. 

 

Maybe also think about the downsides of what you suggest - there are plentyful but unless you yourself consider both aspects the good AND the bad it just feels like you came to a conclusion without properly considering it first and are fighting critique harshly. I played in roleplay projects where things like court dates were IRL based. Know what it did? Dwindle down the playerbase. 

 

Now I know you personally would prefer a 30 man SUPER HARDCORE roleplay server more than a 200 populated server with actual LIFE in it despite it causing quality loss here and there but - why not just make one your own instead of trying to force it onto an existing project that clearly does not seem to strive for this goal. (And know why? Because developing complex shit for 30 people is not as much fun as it is to do it and bring happiness to 200+ people).  

Edited July 31, 2019 by Coni

[1357]

55 minutes ago, Coni said:

tl;dr. 

 

Sorry but I value my time and I have learned - the best ideas can be explained in simple words. I know you suffer from the same trait I suffered (and often still do) from - I love to read / listen myself speak. Think thrice about what you want to get through, formulate it simple. If you don't care then why suggest something anyway? If you care then do it consumer-friendly so you actually reach people you need to reach for a change to be possible. Otherwise this is just a circle jerk that leads nowhere. 

If that's how you feel, that's good for you. But as for myself, it does not bother me if someone cares less to read and have an elaborate discussion on a topic that would one hundred percent push this server in a better direction instead of the pushing the same agenda that's been forced down everyone's throats for awhile now.

 

I'm also the last person who prefers a 30 player hardcore server so lets try not jump to assumptions. It's not necessarily about being hardcore, it's about making both sides equal and balancing out issues that have been present in every server so far to date, in replacement to a rule that suggests lethal approaches to be poor unless engaged on first. You said it yourself

7 hours ago, Coni said:

Forbid reckless character traits regardless of character concept. Only allow for murder / gun usage when you can prove evidently that this was the only and last resort for your character. Murdered someone after robbing him? Not the case - punishment. Got into an argument with someone, he flicks the knife out, you brandish your gun to warn him, he storms at you, you shoot - good case. 

You want something to be a rule that hardly corresponds to the real world in terms of illegal role play. You would prefer your words in quote to be a rule. But all it does is intrinsically limits specific areas of role play, and instead we could be thinking of finding and ways to handle this type of play in character without the constant need of admin intervention and interference. The first sentence of your approach outright screams LIMIT and hardly makes any sense. The last thing the server needs is more restricted safe zones, cool downs and other bogus limits. Anyone can think of that. What it really needs is a bonafide judicial system, especially with police regard in its current state and how attenuated they are. It's because they have no real ability to cut down on crime without catching it in the specific moment like i've mentioned previously and theoretically acts as an imbalance. 

 

If i have to dumb down my sentences for you then maybe reconsider responding further. I'm happy to engage with anyone that truly cares to understand and wants to have a discussion, it's why i made the thread, but it's not exactly aimed at people who choose to be simple minded either.

57 minutes ago, Coni said:

If you manage to actually formulate your solution based on how it helps roleplay quality AND gameplay without using IRL as a buzzword then I might be able to engage this. 

 

Maybe also think about the downsides of what you suggest - there are plentyful but unless you yourself consider both aspects the good AND the bad it just feels like you came to a conclusion without properly considering it first and are fighting critique harshly. I played in roleplay projects where things like court dates were IRL based. Know what it did? Dwindle down the playerbase. 

 

Now I know you personally would prefer a 30 man SUPER HARDCORE roleplay server more than a 200 populated server with actual LIFE in it despite it causing quality loss here and there but - why not just make one your own instead of trying to force it onto an existing project that clearly does not seem to strive for this goal. (And know why? Because developing complex shit for 30 people is not as much fun as it is to do it and bring happiness to 200+ people).  

I've done so but that's up to you to engage yourself and read what i'm posting. My intentions aren't to compare the real world to the server, and i thought i made that clear in my original post, but you shouldn't kid yourself if you think what we're role playing isn't a simulation of the real world so it's why you'll find some people happen to every so often use reality as a reference. If i'm not mistaken, the servers intention is also to raise the bar and stray away from aged concepts that have been used in every other server. It's the problem, this is just another server that isn't all that different from the others.

 

There's downsides to tons of stuff, but that isn't to say solutions can't be thought of to compensate for so. I'm not sure how you think utilizing the court system for sentencing and prosecution in general, and aspiring for legality to be less one sided while straying away from limited character concepts and trying to find ways to handle these issues in character all adds up to causing in your words, quality loss. You'd be surprised if you think the entire player base is satisfied with what the server consists of currently, it's really just another assumption of yours.

 

I'm constantly thinking of the downsides to any suggestion i make, but how often am i able to discuss those when you're cutting down on all of it or saying you stopped reading after X and not even mentioning the suggestions and proposals i bring up? 

 

Again if you truly care to discuss, then read what i'm saying and try not to let the seldom reality comparisons get to you and then post again otherwise i don't really wish to continue discussing with someone who's hostile and isn't looking at something from every angle. Just understand that there are plenty of ways to appease everyone involved while also pushing forward and improving on the current state.