The player's responsibility to provide evidence? A standard among admins for handling reports

[Craazy]

Was recently informed by an admin that a /report that didn't go my way recently was somewhat neglected because it is supposedly the player's responsibility to provide the evidence.

I understand collecting evidence such as video, logs, screenshots to help ease the administrator's process of handling a /report but this particular case was regarding evidence that I as a player would have no chance at obtaining, which is why I asked the admin to check for me...

You can imagine the disdain I felt when I was told that they "worked with the evidence they were presented with" as opposed to going through logs and fact checking various details that could have changed the entire outcome of the report.

So to keep it simple... I can't obtain certain evidence because I do not have access to everyone's logs... and the admin doesn't look for it and "works with the evidence they have"... 
Does this seem fair to you?

I'm sure some admins do go out looking and try to get the whole story before coming up with an outcome but what about the other admins?

Maybe this isn't as big of an issue as I think, but judging by the fact that this has happened to me once... and I also currently see that there is another report where the player was reported for failure to identify (among other things) but the handling admin never even asked them for evidence of the identification and concluded based on his own findings, but another report where the player is reported for failure to identify and the admin is fully pressing him for concrete evidence that the identification occurred and checking the time-stamps, etc.

The difference between these two admins and their handling styles can easily change the outcomes of /reports and thus I thought it would make for a healthy general discussion.

Should there be a standard for admins regarding player reports?
Should it be the reporting player's full responsibility to provide evidence of rulebreaks? Or should admins also go through logs and double check the information that is pertinent to the report?

EDIT: Changed a typo in the title.

Edited March 17 by Craazy

[Tony White]

admins are always checking logs to ban players so I don't see why they shouldn't check logs to assist in reports

[Dogelol71]

Its only fair that if there is concrete evidence, to look for it. you're changing ppls experience on the server, why not do it in a good way

[sevo]

  

On 5/22/2017 at 7:23 PM, Nervous said:

If you feel that another player has broken any of the In Game rules, and there's no way you can work it out without involving staff, you can simply post a topic using the guidelines below. Bear in mind, however, that evidence is a must. 

Valid evidence includes unedited screenshots or videos and administrator's statement. If you have edited screenshots/videos, you can still post them, although do keep in mind that the admin will base his answer on his understanding of the scene and will be able to deny your request if he believes the proof isn't 'legit' or isn't good enough.

 

The Player Report Information thread has clear guidelines on this which players must abide by.

 

Of course there may be certain allegations which evidence cannot reasonably be provided for, and understandably this may make it difficult for both the reporting player and the administrator handling the report. Generally speaking, without evidence an administrator cannot action a report. We do not have the time, resources or means to go log-diving for every single allegation without a hint of evidence to substantiate an allegation.

[Frisella]

I've always wondered this. I'd be fucked in a report because everybody else seems to record the game 24/7 and I don't even know how to do it.

[Craazy]

12 hours ago, sevo said:

The Player Report Information thread has clear guidelines on this which players must abide by.

 

Of course there may be certain allegations which evidence cannot reasonably be provided for, and understandably this may make it difficult for both the reporting player and the administrator handling the report. Generally speaking, without evidence an administrator cannot action a report. We do not have the time, resources or means to go log-diving for every single allegation without a hint of evidence to substantiate an allegation.

This makes sense and yeah, players should definitely try their best to bring as much evidence as they can...

But this surely can't be the best system which is why I thought there should be a new standard for admins when handling reports instead of just having it rely on whichever admin is handling the report.
One admin might have the time to go log-diving to check on the allegation while another admin might just say "no evidence"... and this could make huge differences in the outcomes of some reports.

For example, if a player is reported for poor escalation or DM but the situation may have pieces stemming back months... and the player who was reported might not have that evidence, maybe he never had it or maybe he deleted it thinking he no longer needed it since it was months ago after all... just for the information to suddenly become important. Now the player who was reported could prove that he was justified in what he did only if he had the same tools that the handling admin has. But he doesn't... and the handling admin? Doesn't bother looking it up because it's an "allegation" like you said earlier.

This is why I believe there should be a new standard for how admins handle reports... All admins should follow the same procedure, it's how the most basic justice systems work and thus should be the case here.

I understand where admins are coming from about how log-diving for every single allegation would use up loads of time, but this brings me back to the point of this being fair because if an admin doesn't have the 1 hour time to look up whether the reported player is telling the truth...  but another admin does... then that report purely depends on which admin picks up the report.

It's basically like a lawsuit (reporter) and a counter-lawsuit (reported)... Now yeah, the judge may lean which either way but only based on precedent and evidence. On GTA:W however, the judge, defense attorney, plaintiff's attorney... they're all the admin, and so when one admin does what he can to ensure everything is fair from all sides, another admin "doesn't have the time". Which I understand fully, I know admins have lives too... but the outcome of player reports can be devastating sometimes so when not even your own attorney is on your side, it makes the blow that much harder.

I know it depends from situation to situation... and I know admins work extremely hard on some reports that take the span of days or even weeks... but it shouldn't depend from situation to situation, that's the argument I'm trying to make. There should be a standard for admins to follow when handling a player report.

Perhaps even allowing players access to some of their own logs such as your kill list, death list, and whatever else may allow the players to find the long lost distant logs that can help them prove their point in player reports. I know this opens up the door for metagame but I imagine you can easily figure out when it's been metagamed via player report and most faction conflicts have defense/attack logs that people can metagame anyway... 

And this is just one example, I can see distant logs such as this being useful for a variety of reasons related to long lost distant logs of burglaries or whatever else that the admin might not want to dig into but the player would gladly dig in if it means proving their points in a player report.

 

Edited March 17 by Craazy

[Godmask]

9 minutes ago, Craazy said:

But this surely can't be the best system which is why I thought there should be a new standard for admins when handling reports instead of just having it rely on whichever admin is handling the report.
One admin might have the time to go log-diving to check on the allegation while another admin might just say "no evidence"... and this could make huge differences in the outcomes of some reports.

I believe once an admin has claimed the report they have to handle it. However, I have noticed that some admins will lock the report topic they are handling and I believe this is to speak among the other admins to see what possible outcome can be for the report they are having to deal with. If they feel like it is necessary to go log-diving then they'll do it, on the other hand, if the players (both parties) have provided enough evidence then the handling admin will handle the report deemed necessary, again dipping into the logs if needed. 

[.malvado]

In a position to ban/ajail a player based on a report I think it's only right that things should be double checked in logs. It's only right if the allegations warrant that much of a time sink to go log diving. It's a volunteer only position that holds the power to potentially ruin someone's place in this community if things get misconstrued or hidden behind logs that weren't looked at.

 

That being said though the burden of proof is really on the reporting party to provide for the most part. Otherwise I can report anyone for anything and just say "look at the logs" which would take however long and create an even larger back log of reports then there already is.

 

Only way I could see something like a standard being forced on how individuals handle reports and how much time it would take to log dive every allegation is if the reporting party is wrong/lying a more strict punishment for false allegations. 

[ClaudeSpeed]

its the same with rpqm reports, they ask you for the evidence while its nearly impossible to obtain solid evidence of the accused players sometimes.
No evidence = report closed

 

Edited March 17 by ClaudeSpeed

[Akio]

As harsh it might sound, without solid evidence it’s simply accusations without proof.  Yeah it sucks but that’s how it goes sometimes .