Struggling as a Black American role player in GTAW

[Onumbra]

But at the end of the day it does not matter if you RP white or black, what kind of cool outfit you have put together, how your car is tuned and your house furnished - If I see you running around the city, skipping intersections and constantly talking in /B then I personally totally ignore the entire existence of your character.

[Bubonic]

I've never done black roleplay so my opinion could be null but most of the unofficial factions I've seen usually shut down quickly due to inactivity and/or just causing pure carnage. If you want a change, be the change. Do something different and push away from the stereotypical Davis faction that immediately starts beefing with the neighbouring set. Obviously, these things happen regardless but you need a solid crew of people who will stick it out and not just go inactive when it gets tough.

[Beholder]

I don't really think I meet the melanin requirement to speak on this but I have an idea.

 

Some mexican gangs spawn in repping 13 which can affect the way they're interacted with by other Mexican gangs. Understanding that taking on another sureno set means fighting the eMe members that represent them, some of which also represent your own faction. This can curb a lot of conflict, and acts as a channel of diplomacy.

 

You can see the same sort of thing with whites and skinheads as they have a loosely organized culture, as do surenos. A loose enough culture to significantly slow down or curb conflicts between them.

 

From my limited time trying to roleplay in black factions, it was clear there wasn't too much of a structure which lead to gangs definitely fighting more frequently, ultimately leading to notable conflicts and gangs turfs being redrawn a lot. The constant gang violence definitely attributes to the lack of self perserverence as it inhibits development and usually can be a losing battle when paired with gang injunctions and internal conflict, etc.

 

But when you bang in a high traffic area like Davis or Rancho, you really do have to stand your ground or risk extinction anyways.

 

[Xantholic]

On 12/15/2023 at 11:25 PM, Beholder said:

Some mexican gangs spawn in repping 13 which can affect the way they're interacted with by other Mexican gangs. Understanding that taking on another sureno set means fighting the eMe members that represent them, some of which also represent your own faction. This can curb a lot of conflict, and acts as a channel of diplomacy.

Most of the gangs that spawn in repping 13 are portraying gangs that have been Surenos for decades already, and it generally doesn't affect the way they interact with other Hispanic gangs. Most of the Sureno gangs on the server beef amongst themselves and Eme doesn't particularly ever get involved in the beefs, because that wouldn't be realistic, and most Sureno gangs that have beef in real life, are portrayed as having beef on the server too.

 

With Black gangs, it's also similar. Most of the black gangs that are commonly roleplayed on this server are portrayed as being more or less 1:1 with their real life counterparts, meaning that real-life gang feuds (for example Rollin 60s Crips vs Hoover Criminals) also carry over into the game. This creates a dynamic where people start their street gangs, and feel like they need to start beefing with their enemies immediately.

 

The problems with African American roleplay don't really have a whole lot to do with why a lot of black gangs don't survive, it's a lack of resources. Hispanic and white gangs get resources from various sources, but African American gangs typically get shunned IC by those same connects for numerous IC reasons. This leaves people playing as black characters in a situation where their gang is unable to attain resources because of not having enough connections who are willing to supply them. So eventually, they just die out, either from beef with enemy gangs or just from going inactive because of boredom.

[ThuggLordd]

It's simple: People generally view African-Americans as being at the lowest rung of the criminal ladder in real life - indeed, when TV shows and films depict these gangs, it's almost always street level; when they're depicted at the top, it's seen as anomalous, as if they've overcome a handicap: the cops and all the well-established OCGs are both bewildered that a black man has risen to the top.

 

In other news, even in societies where the myth of there being less racism persists,  such as Latin American countries who advertise their racial demography as being 'mestizo' (mixed race), there are preferences for whiter skin and evident economic disadvantages to being black, which is even hinted at here in this thread:

Quote

" which is obviously an OOC thing if you're making them pay 100k for a single rifle"

"be the change you want to see" is all good and well when there's no heel curb stomping your head.

 

There is also the fact of OOC power consolidation. The longest-lasting factions have admins entrenched in them, usually in IFM to some degree, and people look out for their own.

I am willing to bet that if you made a chart of factions in terms of racial makeup and how many admins come from said faction, you would have a racial gradient with PD factions [majority white] at the top, illegal majority white factions just underneath, yellow factions in the middle [Mexican and Asian], and black factions at the very bottom.

 

This is no coincidence, as the preference police have on GTA RP servers (seen as more trustworthy, afforded better outcomes in reports, possess more privileges) and their prevalence as admins comes from both Police and Admin players both being in hierarchy where they are subservient to higher ranks, both well-versed in protocol and have a required knowledge of the law/rules (or at least they are presumed to - often we see they are not as eloquent as we think, judging by lawsuits and staff reports), both have OOC corruption rules against them as a constraint on their power, and both moderate players - the people most moderated being black (and it is well known that admins and cops will both patrol the ghettos to increase their arrest record).

 

There are more parallels, but, basically, cop players make perfect admins, and the culture inside the admins inherits values from where its admins come from, and if this is from mostly cops then, as we are on an RP server and cops inherit their value from the real world, where there is white hegemony, then the administration culture will necessarily disfavour blacks.

 

If you want change, it can not be the "change you want to see", as the economy on this and all GTA RP servers is a masquerade - no player possesses any power except insofar as they hold an administrative title, are a cop, or have guns [The de facto currency; $$$ may be the de jure but properties are not parceled out based on money, they are parceled out based on reputation, and so this serves as proof of my claim].

 

We should not forget that "a person's rights are equivalent to their power" (Spinoza, TTP). Accordingly, black factions who have no admins in them and barely any on their side, are the very antithesis of the police in contemporary culture, and who are destined only to receive guns and drugs from factions who are accorded supplier status by virtue of their real life equivalents, must mean that:

• black factions do not last long because IRL black factions do not last long; in fact, they last even less long because there is no actual END USER of drugs - drugs in this server do not satisfy hordes of addicted customers, but increase the HP of gunmen...
• ...because guns are the real currency of the server, and whereas guns are supplied en masse to black gangs IRL so they can protect their stake in the drug trade, there is no actual drug trade here, because it serves no economic purpose outside of gunplay.
• Those illegal factions who control the flow of guns both IC and OOC (through the apparatus of IFM) have no real motivation to distribute guns to people outside of their own network - there is no economic motivation to supply ephemeral black factions, only a roleplay motivation (which is always weaker), and due to their weakness, black factions do not exist long enough to form tight relations with the gun controllers.
• The admin team incl., consisting of people coming from LEO factions and long-standing OCGs, have no real motivation to help black factions survive except for mere appearance, which is not a strong enough motivation.

 

There needs to be economic changes made for black factions to be viable, OR a conscious effort to recognise the implicit racism against black factions and combat it.

 

As an aside, the rules in general do not suit black factions, who famously shoot each other IRL for the smallest reasons. People do not usually operate on logical reasons, and this is truer the further down the economic ladder you go. Black factions cannot even really loot each other, which only increases their going out of the hood to rob people because of want of guns. Fix the gun supply here and you will paradoxically see less rule breaking, as there will be less need for it.

 

edit: very stoned not sure if makes much sense

Edited December 22, 2023 by ThuggLordd

[eTaylor]

On 11/13/2023 at 10:46 PM, Koko said:

As someone who plays as a black character in mostly EU/daytime hours, honestly it's just ass to see how much of a caricature so many black characters are. Some people's portrayal until US players log in is honestly a watermelon joke short of straight up blackface. Doesn't help when there's entire groups of people in South Central basically RPing like Ugandan Knuckles as a meme.

 

This is also true to other minorities. I'm Hispanic IRL and I've been told my Hispanic characters weren't "hispanic enough" because I just RPed a regular hispanic guy (often including my own cultural/life experiences and going as far as RPing fully in spanish with other spanish speakers in the server) instead of as a raging stereotype.

This sums up why I ignore 80% of them.

[peruvianflake]

2 hours ago, ThuggLordd said:

It's simple: People generally view African-Americans as being at the lowest rung of the criminal ladder in real life - indeed, when TV shows and films depict these gangs, it's almost always street level; when they're depicted at the top, it's seen as anomalous, as if they've overcome a handicap: the cops and all the well-established OCGs are both bewildered that a black man has risen to the top.

 

In other news, even in societies where the myth of there being less racism persists,  such as Latin American countries who advertise their racial demography as being 'mestizo' (mixed race), there are preferences for whiter skin and evident economic disadvantages to being black, which is even hinted at here in this thread:

"be the change you want to see" is all good and well when there's no heel curb stomping your head.

 

There is also the fact of OOC power consolidation. The longest-lasting factions have admins entrenched in them, usually in IFM to some degree, and people look out for their own.

I am willing to bet that if you made a chart of factions in terms of racial makeup and how many admins come from said faction, you would have a racial gradient with PD factions [majority white] at the top, illegal majority white factions just underneath, yellow factions in the middle [Mexican and Asian], and black factions at the very bottom.

 

This is no coincidence, as the preference police have on GTA RP servers (seen as more trustworthy, afforded better outcomes in reports, possess more privileges) and their prevalence as admins comes from both Police and Admin players both being in hierarchy where they are subservient to higher ranks, both well-versed in protocol and have a required knowledge of the law/rules (or at least they are presumed to - often we see they are not as eloquent as we think, judging by lawsuits and staff reports), both have OOC corruption rules against them as a constraint on their power, and both moderate players - the people most moderated being black (and it is well known that admins and cops will both patrol the ghettos to increase their arrest record).

 

There are more parallels, but, basically, cop players make perfect admins, and the culture inside the admins inherits values from where its admins come from, and if this is from mostly cops then, as we are on an RP server and cops inherit their value from the real world, where there is white hegemony, then the administration culture will necessarily disfavour blacks.

 

If you want change, it can not be the "change you want to see", as the economy on this and all GTA RP servers is a masquerade - no player possesses any power except insofar as they hold an administrative title, are a cop, or have guns [The de facto currency; $$$ may be the de jure but properties are not parceled out based on money, they are parceled out based on reputation, and so this serves as proof of my claim].

 

We should not forget that "a person's rights are equivalent to their power" (Spinoza, TTP). Accordingly, black factions who have no admins in them and barely any on their side, are the very antithesis of the police in contemporary culture, and who are destined only to receive guns and drugs from factions who are accorded supplier status by virtue of their real life equivalents, must mean that:

• black factions do not last long because IRL black factions do not last long; in fact, they last even less long because there is no actual END USER of drugs - drugs in this server do not satisfy hordes of addicted customers, but increase the HP of gunmen...
• ...because guns are the real currency of the server, and whereas guns are supplied en masse to black gangs IRL so they can protect their stake in the drug trade, there is no actual drug trade here, because it serves no economic purpose outside of gunplay.
• Those illegal factions who control the flow of guns both IC and OOC (through the apparatus of IFM) have no real motivation to distribute guns to people outside of their own network - there is no economic motivation to supply ephemeral black factions, only a roleplay motivation (which is always weaker), and due to their weakness, black factions do not exist long enough to form tight relations with the gun controllers.
• The admin team incl., consisting of people coming from LEO factions and long-standing OCGs, have no real motivation to help black factions survive except for mere appearance, which is not a strong enough motivation.

 

There needs to be economic changes made for black factions to be viable, OR a conscious effort to recognise the implicit racism against black factions and combat it.

 

As an aside, the rules in general do not suit black factions, who famously shoot each other IRL for the smallest reasons. People do not usually operate on logical reasons, and this is truer the further down the economic ladder you go. Black factions cannot even really loot each other, which only increases their going out of the hood to rob people because of want of guns. Fix the gun supply here and you will paradoxically see less rule breaking, as there will be less need for it.

 

edit: very stoned not sure if makes much sense

Absolutely, the points you've raised hit the nail on the head. The way African-American factions are portrayed in GTA RP servers is a mirror to real-life biases, and it's high time this gets addressed. The stereotypes and constraints placed on these factions stifle creativity and diversity in narratives.

 

Looking at the OOC power dynamics, it's clear as day how the admin representation skews things. A faction's racial makeup shouldn't dictate its standing, but sadly, that's the reality we're seeing. It's like a cycle of inequality being replayed in the virtual world, a direct reflection of what happens in real life.

 

The link between police players being favored for admin roles and how this shapes the in-game culture is something that can't be ignored. It ends up creating an environment where minority factions are at a disadvantage, echoing societal prejudices.

 

Economic restructuring could really turn things around for black factions. It's about creating equal opportunities, something that's long overdue on this server. This change could make the game more engaging and fair, giving every player a fair shot.

And yes, fighting implicit racism is key. Recognizing these biases and actively working against them is crucial, both in games and in real life. We need to push for inclusivity and equality, to make these spaces reflective of the diverse world we live in.

 

So, your post really brings to light some serious issues. It's more than just tweaking a game; it's about changing our viewpoints and pushing for a world that values everyone equally, whether that's online or offline.

Edited December 22, 2023 by peruvianflake

[King of Idlewood]

A lot of words about a lot of things that are generally just barely related but after joining a few black factions it's very clear to me black street gangs in general have a major problem with serial-rulebreakers, OOC toxicity and way too many people (when compared to the pool of available roleplayers) who want to be the leader of their own thing and end up making factions that last for 10 pages and aren't very good or active. Don't ask me about X or Y scene as a whataboutism, because I don't know and I don't care since that's not what the discussion's about.

 

More economic support would be nice, but the reality is that a basic look at the archive section will net you 6 black street gangs where none of them made it past one month, one of which was shut down and its leadership banned en masse, another that had leadership that was ban evading, and yet another that was about to be shut down by IFM for a probable third strike before shuttering by its own hand.

 

As much as I'd like to blame IFM for it, I really can't. The reality is that the scene is dead because a sizeable minority of the people in it are actively making it worse, knowingly deathmatching, ban evading, metagaming etc etc. Some of these factions are/were more active in the reports section than their forum threads, or in-game.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by King of Idlewood

[ThuggLordd]

17 minutes ago, King of Idlewood said:

A lot of words about a lot of things that are generally just barely related but after joining a few black factions it's very clear to me black street gangs in general have a major problem with serial-rulebreakers, OOC toxicity and way too many people (when compared to the pool of available roleplayers) who want to be the leader of their own thing and end up making factions that last for 10 pages and aren't very good or active. Don't ask me about X or Y scene as a whataboutism, because I don't know and I don't care since that's not what the discussion's about.

 

More economic support would be nice, but the reality is that a basic look at the archive section will net you 6 black street gangs where none of them made it past one month, one of which was shut down and its leadership banned en masse, one of which had leadership that was ban evading, and another that was about to be shut down by IFM for a probable third strike before shuttering by its own hand.

 

As much as I'd like to blame IFM for it, I really can't. The reality is that the scene is dead because a sizeable minority of the people in it are actively making it worse, knowingly deathmatching, ban evading, metagaming etc etc. Some of these factions are/were more active in the reports section than their forum threads, or in-game.

 

These are descriptions of the effects rather than the causes. The rules are heavily geared against black players.

 

Can black RPers not access guns to shoot their rivals? The band-aid fix: Ban players from travelling far away to rob, or from using cars. Why are they doing this ridiculous shit? Because there's no actual supply for them in game.

 

Are legal RPers being robbed and shot in affluent zones, usually in regard to failed robberies? Make them safezones, so the bar is higher for illegal RPers to operate in these areas. Why are they robbing whitey in these areas? Because there are no guns in their own.

 

The very existence of safe zones implies unsafe zones. Unfortunately, the rules account for neutral zones, safe zones, and crime free zones: it does not implement any 'crime-ridden' zone where you can get shot for less of a reason.

 

If black RPers are shooting each other over petty beef, and some administrator is banning them for roleplaying what would happen in the real world, then it is maybe the rules that are the problem rather than those who break them, and by condemning them you create a justification for what caused them in the first place.

 

Why is there no concept of an unsafe zone? Because of racism implicit in the structure of the server and the rules that support it.

 

All the rules are geared towards whitey, and when you punish blacks for racist rules then use them to support your argument, you are doing much the same as what people IRL do when they point to crime figures [the effects] rather than the causes [economic problems], thereby implicitly justifying injustice.

 

 

 

[King of Idlewood]

21 minutes ago, ThuggLordd said:

These are descriptions of the effects rather than the causes. The rules are heavily geared against black players.

What an odd thing to say. People who RP in black street gangs (because I assume we're roleplaying and there's no ooc skin color requirement) play with the same rules as everybody else.

 

Quote

Can black RPers not access guns to shoot their rivals? The band-aid fix: Ban players from travelling far away to rob, or from using cars. Why are they doing this ridiculous shit? Because there's no actual supply for them in game.

The factions I was in which were at least mildly established had no problems getting guns. It's expected that if a faction isn't very old (ie, spawned in 2 weeks ago), they aren't going to have many connections either. You can't just spawn in and expect to have every one of your 40 members strapped at all times, it's simply not going to happen unless you're using OOC connections. The reality is that most factions (not just black street gangs) shut down within 1 month, and that's not really enough to get any sort of consistent gun plug. But in general, why should the need for guns so high right off the bat? If you're a new faction trying to establish yourself, you should be at an IC disadvantage, it's one of the few ways that the system actually works well.

 

Quote

Are legal RPers being robbed and shot in affluent zones, usually in regard to failed robberies? Make them safezones, so the bar is higher for illegal RPers to operate in these areas. Why are they robbing whitey in these areas? Because there are no guns in their own.

Most people doing this weren't even part of any faction, they were just OOC friend groups that liked to get into shootouts together, and robberies were a convenient excuse. You can argue about robberies with cars all day, but the fact is that in a server where 400 or so people of the 700 online are criminals, the ratio of robber:victim is going to be way too much and result in too many armed robberies.

 

It's a 10 year old issue and fairly complex, but unfortunately I do believe that stopping people from robbing with cars was the right decision and avoids lots of headaches. Every other type of faction has been able to deal with the change well - I don't believe going around four deep in an STX was so vital to the black street gang experience that it's now impossible to be successful as a result.

 

Quote

The very existence of safe zones implies unsafe zones. Unfortunately, the rules account for neutral zones, safe zones, and crime free zones: it does not implement any 'crime-ridden' zone where you can get shot for less of a reason.

Somehow I don't think letting people shoot each other for even less worthy offenses is going to fix the issue.

 

 

21 minutes ago, ThuggLordd said:

 

If black RPers are shooting each other over petty beef, and some administrator is banning them for roleplaying what would happen in the real world, then it is maybe the rules that are the problem rather than those who break them, and by condemning them you create a justification for what caused them in the first place.

You seem to be coming from some sort of reasoning that black street gangs in real life shoot each other over petty reasons more than hispanic or asian/white gangs do, but that's really not the case. I don't see why black factions should have a lower bar to clear on having a reason to murder somebody else.

 

And even if this was the case in real life - it wouldn't matter. We aren't here to be a 1:1 analogue to real life. We already have enough of an issue with people "roleplaying" hot head characters so they can have an excuse to always pull a gun or escalate verbal arguments into fights. I don't want to have to approach every situation with another black character knowing that he can just roleplay that he's the hardest thug in Davis and a hothead and etc etc so he can pull out a gun and drop me whenever the fuck he feels like it, that's completely ridiculous.

 

 

21 minutes ago, ThuggLordd said:

Why is there no concept of an unsafe zone? Because of racism implicit in the structure of the server and the rules that support it.

 

All the rules are geared towards whitey, and when you punish blacks for racist rules then use them to support your argument, you are doing much the same as what people IRL do when they point to crime figures [the effects] rather than the causes [economic problems], thereby implicitly justifying injustice.

 

You seem to be completely hellbent on blaming everything on "racism" and completely dodging any criticism of the scene. Calling the rules "racist" because they don't let you shoot everybody you want whenever you want is an odd position to take.

 

PS: The concept of an unsafe zone already exists, even if not officially and even if it's applied with a bias towards certain official legal factions. SD and PD were both told several times in reports on the forums that Rancho was, in-character, a high risk area, and they're liable to be CKed (and have been) if they don't appropriately roleplay fear.

 

The same goes for Harvard Park - it's considered, in-character, an unsafe zone. This is because there's actually roleplay and development behind that. You don't get to just spawn in and start claiming you're big, bad, and everybody should respect your faction. HPB and TGS put in the work to be big, bad and respected in-character and now they get to reap the reward of being in an "unsafe zone".

If you think being an "unsafe zone" should just allow you to shoot people for even less reasoning, then thankfully that's never going to happen.

Edited December 22, 2023 by King of Idlewood