Report Player appeals.

[Atiku]

1 hour ago, Notbond said:

Another issue I see with this is why just one appeal? Why not two, three, four? I'm not happy with how my player report was handled so I will appeal, can people then appeal the appeal? 

 

There will be no end to this appeal madness! 

are you saying this wouldn't be appealing to you?

[Orcaninja]

I guess they'd rather have a staff report over wrongful decisions instead, shrug.

[Cici]

3 hours ago, Rukka said:

I really don't see the point in this. You file a report with all of your evidence if you're the reporting party, if you're not the reporting party you post all the evidence to defend against the allegation if appropriate. An admin looks at the evidence and makes a decision based off of this. If you feel like you're treated wrongly you can appeal to management who can decide if the punishment is appropriate. 

Yes but some people might not have the time to lay out all the evidence, if the admin jumps to a conclusion without getting the full story.  That's what this would counter.  People who may not be able to dig through the evidence or their counter evidence in time will be able to fix the misunderstandings.

 

3 hours ago, Notbond said:

Another issue I see with this is why just one appeal? Why not two, three, four? I'm not happy with how my player report was handled so I will appeal, can people then appeal the appeal? 

Respect, integrity and courtesy is what appeals are about.  If someone is appealing something, with facts and evidence, why wouldn't we give them that?  Admins jump to conclusions regularly, so this would eliminate any misunderstandings.  If they don't have any evidence or counter evidence to support an appeal, they have no business posting one.

 

2 hours ago, DaHes said:

All evidence should be presented at the time of the investigation.  Not sure what else would be required afterward and/or what would prevent this from turning into a form of continuance or appealing to delay the inevitable.  It's always been "Player complains, admins make their ruling, case is closed."  If an admin makes a bad call, it's a management thing, not a player re-do situation.

But the fact of the matter is, not all evidence does.  Sometimes reports just overwhelm roleplayers and they can't manage to get the right evidence before an admin jumps to a final conclusion.  It happens regularly, not to mention to myself, despite my clean admin record and my 6 months here.  I'd fully wager I'm not the only person who'se been given the bad end of the wishbone by admin decisions.  



Why this argument holds no water:

Spoiler

As a community, all of our standards combined is what make up the server, not just the admin's.  If we never have enough faith in our roleplayers to respectfully plead their case in what they could argue is a wrongful decision, without bias, do they not deserve to?  The fact that staff reports aren't handled publicly too is an automatic turnoff for people who respect transparency.  An admin's judgement can be his/her judgement, but nothing should ever be "final" because of status.  It's a better dynamic than what we have now, and it'll expose the people who're overly litigious at the same time, both players and admins.

My two favorite words this month are: Facts and evidence.

Neither a report OR AN appeal, should be posted without facts and evidence.

It is no secret that the opinion of admins have begun to become the set standard of this server.   Not the factions or the players, per say.  Nervous said he doesn't want his admins thinking they're gods here,  so this will level the playing field for the less authoritarian folk on this server. Why does an admin's word have to be final if a player can respectfully prove it's not the truth or the case, in accordance to what was finalized?

This has been the blight of roleplay servers across the board.  This suggestion will kill it here.

 

[Notbond]

You're talking about admins making errors when deciding a player report outcome if the outcome should have been different, not due to a players fault but because an admin made an error then that is no longer appeal worthy but should be taken to management/staff report route.

 

I don't think this suggestion doesn't anything to limit the problems you're trying to limit, rather just add more bureaucracy and un-needed work. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by Notbond

[Cici]

4 minutes ago, Notbond said:

You're talking about admins making errors when deciding a player report outcome if the outcome should have been different, not due to a players fault but because an admin made an error then that is no longer appeal worthy but should be taken to management/staff report route.

 

I don't think this suggestion doesn't anything to limit the problems you're trying to limit, rather just add more bureaucracy and un-needed work. 

What looks less litigious, a staff report, or a report appeal?  What sounds nicer and also what seems more transparent?

While you don't agree with the idea, I respect your input.  Congratulations on your staff promotion as well.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Cici

[Notbond]

If we need to increase transparency I've always been onboard with increasing that among staff reports,

 

I can see how an appeals process might "look" different but really it's the same aim. Basically, "I feel an admin has made an incorrect decision."  If we had an appeals process a higher ranked admin would likely have to take it to avoid issues within the staff team. Therefore, the appeal would basically be a staff report that looks slightly different. 

 

And thank you. 

 

[Rukka]

Quote

Yes but some people might not have the time to lay out all the evidence, if the admin jumps to a conclusion without getting the full story.  That's what this would counter.  People who may not be able to dig through the evidence or their counter evidence in time will be able to fix the misunderstandings.

 

Then lay out all of the evidence in one post rather than going back and forth with someone? Players usually get 24hrs to respond to reports which is PLENTY of time to dig out evidence.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Rukka

[Cici]

3 minutes ago, Rukka said:

Then lay out all of the evidence in one post rather than going back and forth with someone? Players usually get 24hrs to respond to reports which is PLENTY of time to dig out evidence.

What do you do about the people who don't understand?  Like I recall one I had with you a while back, Rukka.  You banned me from discord for "homophobic comments" but didn't get the full story in time to know that the person who reported me for that said the very same thing to me just hours that morning.  When I went to show you the proof you said "Do a staff report."  You weren't looking to hear it.  I don't bring this up as an attack, I bring this up as an up front example of what happens to not only me, but many other players on this server.

All due respect to you too.

It's OK that we disagree here.  Those numbers are looking mighty close too 0_0  can't say I expected that, at first, the way it was looking.

[Cici]

I guess what I'm saying is, if the admins have all the say, they will eventually possess the power to condescend.  Because they have a right to, by status.

It sets the wrong example of who we are, on this server, and what we have the potential to grow into.

[Kolyah]

I voted yes. But In my opinion you can comment to the admins final word, why not? it's not a bad thing. Maybe you are not with the conclusion and you want to say something about it. Does it matter? No, but you can still give your opinion about it. And this is not a waste of admin's time they just can close it after 24 hours or after a comment is posted.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Kolyah