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What are your thoughts on a free market and reconstruction of how PM works?


Ohngesicht

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Hello, dear members of this community,
I wanted to address this problem for quite a while now.
Right now, PM is controlling the whole market of properties, leases, and for some parts even vehicles.
This means, that players can usually not sell properties as they please, PM always interferes and often cancels these transactions.
It takes weeks, sometimes months to get the property you want from PM.


In a free market, properties could be purchased and sold much more easily without PM interfering.
My initial problem with PM is the unbearable communism-like style of how they run the subteam.
They decide who gets what property and in my opinion, the free market should take care of that.
If anything, RPQM should be responsible for deciding whether or not someone is doing a good portrayal of their character.
PM is not responsible for judging your character's roleplay, thus limiting your experience on this server.

A perfect PM would set house and business markers all around the map so people don't have to request them on the UCP, but can just buy them IG which makes things much more uncomplicated.


These properties can be sold whenever the original owner likes and should not be blocked by PM at any cost.
This means if you want a property, you don't have to go through a very tiring bureaucracy until you can finally roleplay something on this game.
PM makes things much more complicated than they should be.
This takes off all the weight on PM's shoulders and would make it much more enjoyable for RP as nobody would have to go through an endless cycle of bureaucracy.
I believe that PM is well aware of these flaws and intentionally doesn't want to do it the way I explained above, which is creating markers all over the map for houses and businesses, so they don't lose any of their relevance.

But as a community, we have to address this unbelievably out-of-date system.
As for any "RP quality" concerns --- that is what RPQM is for.
What do you think?


This thread is not meant to be a bashing on PM, but more a way of laying out an alternative to their system.

Edited by Ohngesicht
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This is fun as a thought experiment but it completely falls apart when you consider that the supply of non-apartment buildings is too low. Players have gathered millions of dollars, and it'll send prices completely through the roof on anything that's special. People will hoard them and it'll be terrible. We may need some changes, but not these.

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2 minutes ago, mj2002 said:

This is fun as a thought experiment but it completely falls apart when you consider that the supply of non-apartment buildings is too low. Players have gathered millions of dollars, and it'll send prices completely through the roof on anything that's special. People will hoard them and it'll be terrible. We may need some changes, but not these.

There is easy ways to handle that.

For example a rule where you can not sell for 3x of the property's market price.

There is always workarounds.

 

And just because the supply might be low, definitely doesn't mean we need PM to decide who gets what property or not, thus making it even worse than it might be.

I do not see the logic here.

Edited by Ohngesicht
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I believe it could open up a lot of avenues of businesses being open more if players can buy them straight up for sure.

 

However, players don't always (60%) get stuff for their characters that make sense. 

 

But again, there's property reports. I can see both sides since I was once PM, but also now an admin who RPs a lot more. 

 

Cutting down on the wait times is what is truly needed, especially getting rid of the red tape. 

 

Maybe having a select # of businesses (10-15 for now) and monitoring them over the next couple of months would be the best way to approach this? See how many RP issues come up, how many reports, how many RPQM issues with the characters owning it and whatnot.

 

Change is definitely a good thing sometimes, even if it doesn't always work. Trying new things is how to improve as a person and a staff team and I believe PM can be receptive to this thread as long as it remains constructive criticism and respectful.

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We have some amaaaaaazing changes thanks to gibbz which will help the worthflow dramatically. Means we don't need to constantly pend and application and wait, which should translate to the player base seeing more of the work that we do. At the moment, well you don't.

 

I'm against a free market for obvious reasons, I'm not gonna reopen that justification but we will end up with a freaking nightmare.

 

If we improve the workflow which we have underway, I think good things will follow!

Edited by Lomadias
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Not only is the bureaucracy and red tape frustrating for players, but I’m positive it’s also stressful for PM admins. I just don’t see a reason why things MUST stay the way they are and how they’ve been for so long. Change is a good thing. Like said above, it’s not bashing the team but challenging the current system. 
 

PM is too involved in the community and often does the work of their own sub-team alongside their own RPQM rather than leaving it to the dedicated sub-team. I just see, and have seen, some real frustrating structural issues that are a little TOO strict, even for the heavy RP server. 
 

I don’t know necessarily if a free market would work, but the system really does need to change. Both to allow players more freedom as well as the PM admins, who are basically working a full-time job with zero pay or concrete benefits which leads to huge burnout on all sides. 

Edited by Brihannah
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Already in discussions thank you. 
 

EDIT: we’re in the process of making changes and I’ll reply to this fully tomorrow. I wanted to give it the time of day to respond and with that I’ll apply transparency and ask for feed back based on my response.

 

apologies should I have come off short.

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Hi,

 

As said, I have provided a response and will go into as much depth as is expected below.

 

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Right now, PM is controlling the whole market of properties, leases, and for some parts even vehicles.

  • Property Management holds a staple within this community that liaises with a multitude of sub-teams and ensures that everyone's request is read and fairly judged thus reaching a verdict. The entire idea surrounding property management is to distribute the properties requested among those who request them. We have houses, properties, misc requests (smarttps, basements, interiors, garages, scripts etc), leases and vehicle leases.
  • In terms of controlling, Nervous has created what you had described one of the best servers on GTA. It has so many avenues of roleplay and so many opportunities available to players and admins. This server caters to a high standard and with that we're labeled as heavy roleplay server. Unfortunately, that label carries more than just words, we are here to enforce high-level roleplay and essentially make sure that Bob Jones, Aged 15, hasn't got 9 businesses, 3 houses and 9 vehicles. 
  • We have a system in place that fairly opens the request market window which is often announced a week prior to opening to give players an opportunity to gather their application and locations in mind. Furthermore, we open these periodically and have tested waters with it being permanently open.
    • Due to the influx of work it provides ontop of allowing us to breathe for a moment and also enjoy the game for what it is worth, we reverted back to the calendar system which has proven efficient previously.
  • These windows of property requests being open and the majority of others closed allows the teams focus to shift onto the requests at large. Property Requests often receive north of 80+ requests and with that we're, Property Management, are held to an expectation to get these turned over in a timely manner. So, with that being said, we open one at a time and sometimes two at a time. For example, Properties and Leases were just opened together and we currently have 80+ requests collectively.
  • In terms of vehicle leases, @Soup and I have engaged in conversation which streamlined the vehicle leasing system. It was felt as a majority that having already existing vehicles in the leasing request panel is pointless, it added more work than was needed - so what I have been doing for the past two weeks is composing a very detailed spreadsheet containing all the vehicles in game and all the GTA5 vehicles available and with that we're going to make it so that vehicles that are not currently in game can be requested, thus, no more BMX requests for the 'special vehicle leases'.

Property Management has a duty of care to ensure that the server remains at a high standard based on the applications we receive. In no way is it intended to be as you described "controlling" but granted, we have to make the decision and I can see how it can look controlling.

 

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These properties can be sold whenever the original owner likes and should not be blocked by PM at any cost.

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This means, that players can usually not sell properties as they please, PM always interferes and often cancels these transactions.

  • Conditioned properties have a misconception, usually conditioned properties fall under unique house requests and what is meant by conditioned is that it returns to PM and we basically buy it off you and apply it back to the market. It prevents players distributing houses they have acquired within friendship circles, groups and to those who would not fit the bill of the house. At this current time, people already sell houses off to friends when they're NC-ing or deleting a character.
  • What we have done and will continue to do is assist players in selling their businesses to other players, if the other player's character makes sense. There are times where we will not and we will discuss that individually with the player, but you can always negotiate and talk with a member of Property Management. Otherwise, without conditioned properties we will end in a situation where everything becomes open market and standards drop.
  • You can absolutely as aforementioned, negotiate and discuss things, we're open to selling conditioned properties as described above.
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It takes weeks, sometimes months to get the property you want from PM.

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If anything, RPQM should be responsible for deciding whether or not someone is doing a good portrayal of their character.

  • In the past Property Management have had their fair share of hiccups, I will admit that October 2021 houses were being turned over in a month sometimes two. During my tenure it has been something I strive to get amended - going from 2 month turnover to 2 weeks. However, I won't paint it as perfect as we still flaw in some areas, but going from 2 months to 2 weeks is a 300% increase. I will sit here and say, 2 weeks for a game is not good enough, it is the best we can give as of right now. Keeping in mind that the team outside of being an admin have other responsibilites arguably more important than this which I completely understand.
  • As per the wait time, I have a feeling that the entire system is not fully grasped and what I will describe below is how we do our requests and why sometimes (case by case) it can take longer than the initial wait time.
    • There are various reasons as to why a request can exceed the 2 week wait period and I want to emphasise, Property Management does not leave them sitting there until the 2 week mark just 'cus'. Within those 2 weeks, Property Management sit down either together or alone and will provide opinions, comments and read through requests. These comments are a strong staple within Property Management as it prevents bias of the single admin handling it alone, though, we are actively working towards a more hands-on approach and we are testing the waters with a new way of handling these requests.
    • A discussion then takes place between those who commented and those who are yet to comment and we discuss different opinions and what is an objective fact in the players application. This takes time as we are a diverse team with varying timezones but discussions make Property Management.
      • Sometimes a location that is requested is already owned and therefore we need to find alternatives or ask the player for alternatives. That can add to the wait-time.
      • Time after time Property Management will go out of their way to look for a property in the same vein of what is requested, however, it isn't always met and thus a discussion between the player and the admin ensues.
    • As per the discussion, it is our duty to make sure that we're well versed with the character applying, therefore, researching into their character, assets and admin record. All of which takes time. As reiterated, some players are absolutely passionate about their characters and their development and we love to see it. Some, not so much, not a problem, but reading is a lengthy task and not everyone is at the same level of reading as one another, we all differ and that again, is absolutely okay.
    • Additionally, sometimes players can go inactive within the time they submit their request, many a time players have submitted a request and from that day on they have not logged in to the game, with no reasoning provided. It is a common from me to ensure that I can accommodate every player to the best of my ability and with that, it will be placed on pending awaiting the return of a player, if it by chance, exceeds 7 days and no response, we will deny it.
    • Above all else, we correspond with the player should they have any changes they wish to make, any adjustments or just in general. Finally, for this matter, we talk with other sub-teams should it affect a massive Legal Faction, illegal Faction or whether the player has an RPQM report all in which is beyond our control as we're here to handle properties. It is not our job to make other sub-teams go faster or slower, they do their job and we do ours, but unfortunately, these can hinder on the wait time too.

I won't speak on behalf of RPQM, but what I can say is that the team are always working hard with the reports they get and with their extensive research and liaison within cases and with players it would be absolutely detrimental to their workload and to them as individuals to have to then delegate "management of properties and realism" into their sub-team.


Because essentially Property Management by your words, would merely be shifting that onto RPQM's doorstep and as I said above, that is not our job and that is definitely not their job either.

 

@Exodus can respond on behalf of RPQM should he want to.

 

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In a free market, properties could be purchased and sold much more easily without PM interfering.

As I put in my intial comment to this thread before locking it, this is something we had discussed to great lengths too. I had proposed the idea of a part-open market which (for this example) would be Mirror Park, though, as it is a discussion it is not something I, or the team, let alone management is ready to pitch to the community as we have yet to find solutions to the problems and issues raised during discussion.

 

It is not our job to give RPQM more reports and with that we're looking at avenues to minimise not only our involvement but preventing the increase of reports that could will happen.

 

The issues that I raised are no admin checks, no background checks and thus PM is left in the dark as to who owns which home and who does not. For all we know an individual who owns 3 clubs could now own a huge home in Mirror Park and their admin record could be as recent as of yesterday, their assets could exceed 10+ million. This all contributes to the decrease of roleplay standards for which we cater towards.

 

There are some members in PM that are for the part-open market and some that are not, which is great, discussion and disagreements are healthy - thus, what is going to happen is a discussion with the leads and then gauging Managements view before we even propose the idea to the community as Nervous clearly explained to myself that it can cause more harm than good when not releasing something fully complete.

 

This by no means is going to be implemented without the above being met so don't latch onto this idea as we have a long way to go. But again, it is riddled within this thread that we are not willing to change, yet, @HemmaX, @Adv, @Lomadias, @JackieH, @Fenris, @Kyra, @Soup, @Oxygarum, @Daylong and many more are actually striving for better change but all comes with time and those have seen the changes first hand from where Property Management was to where it is now. @Frezemis has also seen the changes as the previous Head of Property Management.

 

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PM is not responsible for judging your character's roleplay, thus limiting your experience on this server.

  • You're absolutely right, we're here to judge exactly what it is you present to us and whether it not only fits your character based on what is written. It is not limiting, as you have all the opportunity to write as much as you desire and as little as you desire. By no means does Property Management go delving in roleplay logs, never have and never intend to.
  • We have resources available to players who get stuck and we're looking to aid them by giving them a rundown of what would be in a request, not everything within the linked document has to be met but it is a starting ground for those who get overwhelmed, lost, confused which all, by the way, is okay. We want to help players and that is why we have the below.

 

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A perfect PM would set house and business markers all around the map so people don't have to request them on the UCP, but can just buy them IG which makes things much more uncomplicated.

  • That is beyond my control, If you think it will get lots of support and traction, go ahead and post it separately as a different suggestion. But as a Manager of Property Management it is not something I get a huge say on as it falls under Nervous' wing. 
  • My opinion on this is that the map is massive and holds plethora of properties all over the map and with blips being on the map it would just be a copious amount of blips and others will be drowned out by this and just can cause issues really as you will not be able to see any business ads or... anything really.
  • It may be worth suggesting that as an addition to map.gta.world - to show properties that are not available to buy off the server itself but from other people, which would mean a new command being put in place for those to put it up to sell + then coincide with map.gta.world.

 

 

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I believe that PM is well aware of these flaws and intentionally doesn't want to do it the way I explained above, which is creating markers all over the map for houses and businesses, so they don't lose any of their relevance.

I believe you're very wrong in us not doing our best to rectify any flaws we identify. I have provided a list of changes we have made in 3 months this year and what is upcoming. By all means, identify issues from thereon, but until then, I appreciate the concern.

 

The below has been a collective stride in the right direction with assistance from @Gibbz for making it possible. In the coming months we will look to further progress the team and hopefully find it in a positive place.

 

  • Implemented Hold Requests via the UCP allowing Property Management to eventually be collectively in one place, further preventing confusion between players and us admins potentially missing requests.
  • Mortgages are now on the UCP once again, allowing Property Management to sit in one place which is monitored regularly if not 24/7 and allows players to keep it in one place also.
  • Vehicle leases as aforementioned are being revamped in a way Soup + Management like, it was disclosed to the full extent privately 2 weeks ago in which they were all for. This will take time.
  • Automed opening/closing dates for requests, thus, preventing human error on missing opening dates for certain requests and close dates which adds to our workload.
  • We've implemented a system for Slots to be finally utilised and used in game.
  • Property Management have taken the time to revise the current property rules which are by far the most outdated document we have, however, we've re-appraised and we've established 'Inactivity Rules' - 'Business Rules' - and 'Faction Rules' - all the while and I will name-drop (with permission) @Lomadias has been working on a deeper explanation as to /openbusiness, who can and cannot use it and why.
  • Basement requests have been implemented via the UCP, under smarttp requests and that once again, prevents confusion and keeps it in one place.
  • Calendar System has been updated appropriately and so far has been followed accordingly.
  • We have streamlined the way in which Admins get to handle Property and House requests where by we can assign you via the UCP and charge you in one go which prevents the /reports in game to get their business assigned as we can now do that via the UCP.
  • Dealership rules have been published.
  • Umbrella Corporations have been published.

What is in the works i.e discussion and in the works:

  • Landlord Scheme
  • Garbage Collection in the County
  • Leasing revamp
  • Streamlining our current system that benefits players and us as admins.
  • Business Budget Requests/PM funding scheme
  • Further rule tweaks
  • Improving the county scheme

 

As per comments made on the thread:

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This is fun as a thought experiment but it completely falls apart when you consider that the supply of non-apartment buildings is too low. Players have gathered millions of dollars, and it'll send prices completely through the roof on anything that's special. People will hoard them and it'll be terrible. We may need some changes, but not these.

Property Management have recently implemented two new apartment complexes with 100+ available apartments, if you find locations you want to add, let us know and we will do our research and hopefully get a positive outcome.

 

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PM is too involved in the community and often does the work of their own sub-team alongside their own RPQM rather than leaving it to the dedicated sub-team. I just see, and have seen, some real frustrating structural issues that are a little TOO strict, even for the heavy RP server. 

As aforementioned, we're working on streamlining and with the Landlord scheme which I have written up it will be the least micromanaged scheme to date giving players the trust in which they are owed and to allow them the avenues of RP.

 

If you could outline what it is you think is too strict in a composed message to myself I will happily look over it and hopefully provide clarity.

 

Please, if you feel like you wish to contribute towards this topic or have suggestions reach out to members within the Property Management team, myself or Lomadias and we will forward them to the group that is currently working on the continuation and further development of the team. 

 

We appreciate everyon'es input but we don't feel like a public thread will gauge just what we want at the moment. 

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