Charging minors with every crime as an adult?

[Mescalero]

1 minute ago, Taina said:

Realism is always a good argument to bring up on an RP server.

 

Realism only suits roleplayers when they please. As I said before, it's a case by case basis. While I support the original argument, the justice system can't handle the workload of looking into each case when there's already a huge amount of workload and unhandled cases. 

 

4 minutes ago, Taina said:

The issue is that some players are attempting to address poor portrayal issues

I'm pretty sure you're also aware that the illegal scene includes gang roleplayers who're straight out of Roblox roleplay, it's them that's getting addressed for their poor portrayal of a minor from what I can tell based on my personal experience as a long time LEO roleplayer myself, people will always complain about other people's roleplay.  

[Triple Seven]

30 minutes ago, Taina said:

 

I'm glad you asked this because I realize I may not have been too clear in that post. I'm not in any way arguing that minors should be allowed to go without consequence for their crimes. I'm arguing that those consequences should not be the same as those faced by adult characters, because that simply doesn't contribute to realistic RP. 

 

Some players here are attempting to 'rob peter just to pay paul' with this argument that forcing minors to face adult sentences is a good idea for the sake of improving RP quality. With some exceptions, there isn't much realism behind forcing this. But throw realism out of the window, I guess - all because some people have issues with minor characters, as if there aren't terribly portrayed characters of all ages all across the server. 

 

So to be clear, it's not about whether or not minors (or anyone else for that matter) should be punished. It's about how long those punishments should be.  To force a 15 year old character to RP a 3 month sentence in real time for something like evading, alongside lifers? That's extreme and unnecessary imo. All that will do is kill RP because most people simply won't log on, and it certainly kills realism.

 

Certainly, if we have higher jail time sentences, then there's space to give minors their lower sentences. That is realism I can agree with.

 

I do not agree with the cherry-picking of committing crime but not serving realistic consequences. Calling it a second life rp server if cherrypicking isn't possible makes no sense and is just a cops and robbers mentality, pick what you do and cut it short when the adrenaline rush is over and the real RP is about the start.

 

When you choose to roleplay a criminal, you already choose possibly having to roleplay time in jail. In fact, a civilian's life going wrong can end in prison as well, it's not that black and white to begin with, but it's easier to use a stereotypical example.

 

I understand the current system isn't working for proper jail rp, beyond those that have lifer characters and have made it their own ecosystem and a few that choose to involve themselves because they want to develop their character. That's why I think populating the jail/prison is necessary, and yes, the crime rate is a reason to increase jail time, poor rp is not, poor rp is simply dealt with by ultimately banning people.

[Taina]

2 minutes ago, Mescalero said:

Realism only suits roleplayers when they please. As I said before, it's a case by case basis. While I support the original argument, the justice system can't handle the workload of looking into each case when there's already a huge amount of workload and unhandled cases. 

 

I'm pretty sure you're also aware that the illegal scene includes gang roleplayers who're straight out of Roblox roleplay, it's them that's getting addressed for their poor portrayal of a minor from what I can tell based on my personal experience as a long time LEO roleplayer myself, people will always complain about other people's roleplay.  

 

I'm going to assume you're involved with the justice system in game. I can't argue with you there. If you say there's issues with handling cases like this, then I believe it. But that only points to issues beyond any that exist with minor characters. It's not hard to see the bias against minors in a lot of these posts and that's really what the issue here is, imo. 

 

And Roblox or not, there are terrible RPers of all kinds across this server. Let's be real. This isn't exactly a high-quality RP server. It has great potential, but poor character portrayal is hardly limited to minor characters. This topic, however, has served as an opportunity for those with bias against minors to call for more restrictions around the role, as if everyone on the server shouldn't be held to a higher standard of RP. 

 

It only serves to further kill realism on this server if we intend to charge minors as adults for every crime. And if there's an issue with the justice system that is making it impossible to continue giving minors more lenient sentences as appropriate, then we should be looking to resolve those issues instead.

[Mescalero]

1 minute ago, Taina said:

I'm going to assume you're involved with the justice system in game. I can't argue with you there. If you say there's issues with handling cases like this, then I believe it. But that only points to issues beyond any that exist with minor characters. It's not hard to see the bias against minors in a lot of these posts and that's really what the issue here is, imo. 

 

And Roblox or not, there are terrible RPers of all kinds across this server. Let's be real. This isn't exactly a high-quality RP server. It has great potential, but poor character portrayal is hardly limited to minor characters. This topic, however, has served as an opportunity for those with bias against minors to call for more restrictions around the role, as if everyone on the server shouldn't be held to a higher standard of RP. 

 

It only serves to further kill realism on this server if we intend to charge minors as adults for every crime. And if there's an issue with the justice system that is making it impossible to continue giving minors more lenient sentences as appropriate, then we should be looking to resolve those issues instead.

I totally agree with you on this one, the fact that roleplaying a "minor" being restricted for mainly gang roleplayers is sad to see, there aren't any programs available on the server to rehabilitate and bring the minors who were involved in illict activities back into the society from what I know. I roleplayed a minor as well, and I am right now, the bias mainly comes from the LEO roleplayers because it's mainly them who see masked up minors in a ghetto gunboat about to gun down and commit ethnic genocide on the other block with high powered rifles and go back to their usual thing right after doing that. 

 

To sum it up; not every minor character is the same as you come across, judging them just by the (M) on their name is very wrong, more opportunities should be given to those who properly roleplay a minor. 

[Taina]

31 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

 

Certainly, if we have higher jail time sentences, then there's space to give minors their lower sentences. That is realism I can agree with.

 

I do not agree with the cherry-picking of committing crime but not serving realistic consequences. Calling it a second life rp server if cherrypicking isn't possible makes no sense and is just a cops and robbers mentality, pick what you do and cut it short when the adrenaline rush is over and the real RP is about the start.

 

When you choose to roleplay a criminal, you already choose possibly having to roleplay time in jail. In fact, a civilian's life going wrong can end in prison as well, it's not that black and white to begin with, but it's easier to use a stereotypical example.

 

I understand the current system isn't working for proper jail rp, beyond those that have lifer characters and have made it their own ecosystem and a few that choose to involve themselves because they want to develop their character. That's why I think populating the jail/prison is necessary, and yes, the crime rate is a reason to increase jail time, poor rp is not, poor rp is simply dealt with by ultimately banning people.

 

To be clear, I learned to RP in second life so what I said wasn't meant as an insult lol. When I say some players appear to want to make this more like second life, I mean that they're trying to diminish the illegal/criminal aspects in RP and focus more on civilian living. And it's great, if you want to rp a civilian. But illegal roleplayers shouldn't be demonized for choosing to play these roles on a game centered around the theme of crime. I'm not sure how cherrypicking is involved.

 

I don't think the crime rate is a valid enough reason for establishing such an ICly unrealistic rule either. The crime rate should be addressed ICly. It's an opportunity for government officials (and I don't mean LEO's) to take action ICly to incite change. There's so much RP to be had that can mirror RL as a consequence of high crime, but rather than RP any of that, we just want to do something like impose adult sentences on minor characters across the board. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Taina

[DeadPlaya]

The same old argument of if you can't do the crime, don't do the time. This doesn't even work in real life. Why are people trying to use it here?

 

A pattern that I'm noticing is people claiming that higher sentences would lower crime, while also complaining about throwaway characters. I think there's a disconnect here. GTAW has some of the highest sentence times I've seen on an RP server. People trying to claim that 15 days is not enough is jaw dropping. 15 days on this server is like years in the real world. And to have to serve a portion of that in game? Do people not respect anyone's time?

 

I, as many others, only have a few hours to play each day. I don't particularly enjoy jail RP. If I knew I had to RP out a full 72 hours in jail I'd heavily consider abandoning that character. I'm not going to spend 3 hours a day for 2 whole weeks doing something I don't particularly enjoy in my spare time. Most people complaining about this are either civilians or LEOs. If we're still using a murder charge as a benchmark,  you're telling me a LEO getting killed, giving the entire patrol force, detectives, civilian employeess, the DA office, coroners, maybe another LEO faction and countless others RP is somehow akin to making someone dole out 72 hours of something they don't enjoy? Not everyone can spend 6 hours a day on GTAW. Some people only play during weekends. You catch a non violent gun charge on Friday and you're out of the count till Sunday. Now you can't RP with your friends like you've been planning to all week. Do I need to go on?

 

The issue here isn't the faction members, it's not the LEOs. It's the trolls, the voice rpers and the criminal social hub players who could not care less about a heavy RP setting and storylines. What they want is to shoot a gun, drive a fast car, steal a faster one and rob people. Once they're caught, they name change or make a new character. And this is allowed. Do you think raising sentence times it going to fix this at all?

 

And finally about underaged chars, that's just laughable. You are in fact mad about the (M) above their head. Poor portrayal is poor portrayal. If somehow minor characters are not allowed, the same gun toting, poor escalation 15 year old will be aged 18 when /examine-d. That is the only difference whatsoever. We don't need applications or limited slots or whatever crazy idea to limit these characters. What GTAW needs to do is stop trying to cater to every idiot with a PC and a functional Google Translate and finally set their standards. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by DeadPlaya

[eTaylor]

Just now, DeadPlaya said:

The same old argument of if you can't do the crime, don't do the time. This doesn't even work in real life. Why are people trying to use it here?

 

A pattern that I'm noticing is people claiming that higher sentences would lower crime, while also complaining about throwaway characters. I think there's a disconnect here. GTAW has some of the highest sentence times I've seen on an RP server. People trying to claim that 15 days is not enough is jaw dropping. 15 days on this server is like years in the real world. And to have to serve a portion of that in game? Do people not respect anyone's time?

 

I, as many others, only have a few hours to play each day. I don't particularly enjoy jail RP. If I knew I had to RP out a full 72 hours in jail I'd heavily consider abandoning that character. I'm not going to spend 3 hours a day for 2 whole weeks doing something I don't particularly enjoy in my spare time. Most people complaining about this are either civilians or LEOs. If we're still using a murder charge as a benchmark,  you're telling me a LEO getting killed, giving the entire patrol force, detectives, civilian employeess, the DA office, coroners, maybe another LEO faction and countless others RP is somehow akin to making someone dole out 72 hours of something they don't enjoy? Not everyone can spend 6 hours a day on GTAW. Some people only play during weekends. You catch a non violent gun charge on Friday and you're out of the count till Sunday. Now you can't RP with your friends like you've been planning to all week. Do I need to go on

 

The issue here isn't the faction members it's not the LEOs. It's the trolls, the voice rpers and the criminal social hub players who could not care less about a heavy RP setting and storylines. What they want is to shoot a gun, drive a fast car, steal a faster one and rob people. Once they're caught, they name change or make a new character. And this is allowed. Do you think raising sentence times it going to fix this at all?

 

And finally about underaged chars, that's just laughable. You are in fact mad about the (M) above their head. Poor portrayal is poor portrayal. If somehow minor characters are not allowed, the same gun toting, poor escalation 15 year old will be aged 18 when /examine-d. That is the only difference whatsoever. We don't need applications or limited slots or whatever crazy idea to limit these characters. What GTAW needs to do is stop trying to cater to every idiot with a PC and a functional Google Translate and finally set their standards. 

As long as people treat jail time and the jail as a “punishment” instead of just an extension of criminal roleplay it’ll never change. You have people that genuinely believe that you getting arrested is your due punishment for daring to roleplay something illegal. It’s kinda sad, really messes things up. 

[Triple Seven]

27 minutes ago, Taina said:

 

To be clear, I learned to RP in second life so what I said wasn't meant as an insult lol. When I say some players appear to want to make this more like second life, I mean that they're trying to diminish the illegal/criminal aspects in RP and focus more on civilian living. And it's great, if you want to rp a civilian. But illegal roleplayers shouldn't be demonized for choosing to play these roles on a game centered around the theme of crime. I'm not sure how cherrypicking is involved.

 

I don't think the crime rate is a valid enough reason for establishing such an ICly unrealistic rule either. The crime rate should be addressed ICly. It's an opportunity for government officials (and I don't mean LEO's) to take action ICly to incite change. There's so much RP to be had that can mirror RL as a consequence of high crime, but rather than RP any of that, we just want to do something like impose adult sentences on minor characters across the board. 

 

Yeah, think we're talking in different directions. I don't demonize players that elect criminal roleplay, nor do I want crime gone, or diminished, I want it to be somewhat realistic. Cherrypicking is involved when someone wants to roleplay commiting crime and living a life of crime, but not the part of it that lands their character in jail, it's an inherent part of the chosen 'role'.

 

Let's be clear here,I don't want minors to get charged like adults, but I only see a realistic possibility for lighter IC punishments when the punishments for adults are more realistic (which means longer in my opinion). I'm not saying no research was put into the penal code, it's likely more the choice of ratio of jailtime vs. real time.

 

And the crime rate is well beyond IC addressing, no matter how much I agree with you. Addressing the crime rate IC would mean deploying the National Guard each and every night and that won't happen because management won't let it. RICO is a clear enough indication of this; hiding crime isn't needed, LEOs cannot be "OP" (even though they realistically are, unless you're smart enough to stay below the radar).

[DeadPlaya]

2 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

As long as people treat jail time and the jail as a “punishment” instead of just an extension of criminal roleplay it’ll never change. You have people that genuinely believe that you getting arrested is your due punishment for daring to roleplay something illegal. It’s kinda sad, really messes things up. 

The punishment isn't going to jail. That can be fun sometimes, but I for one enjoy the literal freedom of rp you get when you're not locked up.

 

What people view as "punishment" is the fact that they can't RP with their friends or faction members as they'd like. This phenomenon is unique to criminal factions. PD or SD can't make you not partner up with your friend. Neither can FD or fucking Aurora Industries or whatever.

[Taina]

10 minutes ago, Triple Seven said:

And the crime rate is well beyond IC addressing, no matter how much I agree with you. Addressing the crime rate IC would mean deploying the National Guard each and every night and that won't happen because management won't let it. RICO is a clear enough indication of this; hiding crime isn't needed, LEOs cannot be "OP" (even though they realistically are, unless you're smart enough to stay below the radar).

 

I agree with everything you said except for this portion right here. I don't think it needs to be as extreme a response ICly as you're suggesting.

 

I've never ICly seen any anti-crime campaigns like some cities irl have been known to push when crime skyrockets. And in the 2+ years that I've been playing minor characters, I've only come across two social worker characters, neither of which took any interest in my character or any that I personally know, despite the fact that there exists a government branch for social services. There are plenty of things that can be done in RP to help address high crime, but none of that is happening. 

 

Changing the rules so that adult sentences are imposed on minors shouldn't be the solution to the IC issue of high crime.

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Taina