[Discussion] What can improve RP interactions between players and general RP standards?

[Mistery14]

9 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

This statement is neither true or accurate. I've been "perm-banned" for two weeks in October 2021 and haven't been punished ever since. Those limitations aren't imposed by the factions, but by LFM/server management - and rightly so. I corrected my wrongs and picked up the right attitude toward this game after having spent nearly 9 months with an entirely clean record. I recognized my own mistakes and developed - and it all took time. This only serves as a prime example that excluding people from this community permanently serves no purpose and that the minimum recruitment standards enforced by legal factions make sense. Recognizing your wrongs and making an effort to improve is very much the core of healthy "correction" system for players known for troublemaking.

 

So records do clear up? Is it automatic? Because if that's the case I'm learning something new today and that does make sense.

 

Thanks for providing some insight. I thought admin records stayed permanently.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Mistery14

[i dont wanna od in LA]

4 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

 

So records do clear up? Is it automatic? Because if that's the case I'm learning something new today and that does make sense.

 

Thanks for providing some insight. I thought admin records stayed permanently.

Records do not clear up, they're permanent. The dates of when they were issued are visible though; it's not particularly difficult to do the math and figure out whether an administrative action has been taken over 2 months ago or not. 

[RedRover]

22 minutes ago, i dont wanna od in LA said:

This statement is neither true or accurate. I've been "perm-banned" for two weeks in October 2021 and haven't been punished ever since. Those limitations aren't imposed by the factions, but by LFM/server management - and rightly so. I corrected my wrongs and picked up the right attitude toward this game after having spent nearly 9 months with an entirely clean record. I recognized my own mistakes and developed - and it all took time. This only serves as a prime example that excluding people from this community permanently serves no purpose and that the minimum recruitment standards enforced by legal factions make sense. Recognizing your wrongs and making an effort to improve is very much the core of healthy "correction" system for players known for troublemaking.

I think part of the issue is that the wording used for what happened to you should have been a temporary ban. I know it doesn't seem like much, but wording is very important here from an enforcement stand point for admins and a psychological stand point for players. A 2 week, 1 month, 6 month ban is indeed a temporary ban. Permanent should mean exactly that, permanent. The term should only be used at that point where there's no more chances. You were an exception who learned the error of their ways and turned it around after being temporarily banned. I commend you for that. However, a lot of these players are opposite from you and abuse a system that is simply too lenient.

 

I wholeheartedly agree temp bans should be in the tool set of an admin team to use, however there should be a time where someone is just not fit for the community anymore. I'm not suggesting we go around swinging the permaban hammer every week, but there must be an end to the punishments at some point in time. Otherwise, there is no weight to the punishments for habitual offenders or those with malicious intent. It should be a graduated system that if and when that time comes, its permanent. Meaning forever. A server that is supposed to have high standards, repeatedly allowing repeat and malicious offenders to keep coming back after so many chances? Punishments no longer have importance. It's just a nuisance until they can appeal or come back after a few hours, days or weeks.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Brofessor

[Mistery14]

8 minutes ago, sCrax said:

Why would it be unreasonable? If their record is recent, lengthier than yellow pages and they show malicious intent in their actions then they simply deserve to be removed from the community. It really is not rocket science. People were literally getting banned after 3 ajails 1-2 years ago and nobody complained about it because it helped to keep a decent roleplay standard.

 

I wasn't talking about such extremes - Of course that makes it reasonable if their record is lengthier than yellow pages and they show malicious intent. What I meant is, there has to be some sort of nuance to it. Let's say someone metagamed (which is a pretty bad thing to have on your record) with current server policies which didn't result in a ban.

 

They've served their punishment, and suddenly metagaming is an instantly ban-able offense. Would you give them the boot just because they have a prior of metagaming or do you give them the benefit of the doubt that they can better themselves and let them stay? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about being reasonable.

[RedRover]

6 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

 

I wasn't talking about such extremes - Of course that makes it reasonable if their record is lengthier than yellow pages and they show malicious intent. What I meant is, there has to be some sort of nuance to it. Let's say someone metagamed (which is a pretty bad thing to have on your record) with current server policies which didn't result in a ban.

 

They've served their punishment, and suddenly metagaming is an instantly ban-able offense. Would you give them the boot just because they have a prior of metagaming or do you give them the benefit of the doubt that they can better themselves and let them stay? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about being reasonable.

This is where a strict, graduated system comes into play that establishes consistency rather than leaving it up to full discretion. A little less leash, more by the book. Somewhat similar to a penal code. First offense? Warning. Second offense? More harsh, short-timed temp ban. Third offense? Even worse, a longer-timed temp ban or permanent based on intent/severity of record. Fourth? Fifth? They need some serious time off. That's perfectly reasonable. If someone isn't getting it after multiple offenses and being pointed in the direction to be better? Then yes it's not out of the question to expect a harsher punishment. The server is supposed to have higher standards. Giving people the benefit of the doubt has to end at some point because eventually people just abuse that leeway.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Brofessor

[Welsh]

In answering the first part of this question "what can improve RP interactions between players"

 

Stop being so closed off to new players/characters. For those players who don't have OOC friends in GTA:W, it can sometimes be near impossible to get going, due to clichés formed between players. 

 

Be more open to new players 

[sCrax]

8 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

 

I wasn't talking about such extremes - Of course that makes it reasonable if their record is lengthier than yellow pages and they show malicious intent. What I meant is, there has to be some sort of nuance to it. Let's say someone metagamed (which is a pretty bad thing to have on your record) with current server policies which didn't result in a ban.

 

They've served their punishment, and suddenly metagaming is an instantly ban-able offense. Would you give them the boot just because they have a prior of metagaming or do you give them the benefit of the doubt that they can better themselves and let them stay? That's the sort of thing I'm talking about being reasonable.

Yes, I agree. I wasn't talking about first time rule breakers. I'm talking about people that break the same rules repeatedly. Because it's clear that they don't want to learn from their mistakes so why even keep them here.

Edited June 29, 2022 by sCrax

[Mistery14]

Just now, Brofessor said:

This is where a strict, graduated system comes into play. Somewhat similar to a penal code. First offense? Warning. Second offense? More harsh, short-timed temp ban. Third offense? Even worse, a longer-timed temp ban. Fourth? Fifth? They need some serious time off. That's perfectly reasonable. If someone isn't getting it after multiple offenses and being pointed in the direction to be better? Then yes it's not out of the question to expect a harsher punishment. The server is supposed to have higher standards. Giving people the benefit of the doubt has to end at some point because eventually people just abuse that leeway.

 

 

Oh I'm 100% for a graduated punishment system like that.

 

I'm not defending the lenient system that's currently in place, I just said that if we want to implement a harsher system we need to take the many other factors than simple enforcement into account and not just blindly ban anything and anyone with a record, and implement it over time. Like Wutah put it probably better than I will, it takes time to change policies and that's what I was basically hinting at.

[Mistery14]

7 minutes ago, sCrax said:

Yes, I agree. I wasn't talking about first time rule breakers. I'm talking about people that break the same rules repeatedly. Because it's clear that they don't want to learn from their mistakes so why even keep them here.

 

Yeah, well then in that case we're on the same page. People who don't care for rules to begin with should have no place on the server.

[Midwest]

38 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

 

Of course, everyone is still learning, each server is different and no matter if you've been RPing for a while or not you'll always have to adapt.

 

But what I mean is, what can we hope to achieve if we restrict RP avenues to people with a record? You say they can better themselves, I believe that and stated so. But why would LSSD/LSPD for example be restricted to them if they could provide equally horrendous RP in other factions and jobs that would still be available to them? Can't they just join, say a mechanic shop and start chopping cars without RP? Or RP as a hospital employee and start abusing their abilities?

 

If people clearly show that they're willing to progress, and do progress even with a record, they shouldn't be restricted of their access to factions just because of their records.

I reference you to "i dont want to OD in LA". He was on the extreme end of what you're talking about, and he's worked his way into joining SD and quickly becoming an important asset for the custody side of the faction. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Midwest