[Discussion] What can improve RP interactions between players and general RP standards?

[RedRover]

Again at the risk of sounding like a broken record from the other similar threads….

 

People will never respect the rules unless there is a possibility of a firm and absolute ending to the consequences. Warnings, Ajails, hell even temp bans have no meaning if there is no permanent end to that road. 9 out of 10 people who get “permabanned” are immediately told they can appeal in 2 weeks, 4 weeks, etc.

 

There must be a hard line in the sand. People need to respect that there will be a time where they will not be given a chance to come back. I’ve seen admins use words like “abysmal” when describing certain player’s UCP records in reports. WHY are they still here??? No one should have a record that is described as “abysmal”. They should be gone. They don’t belong on a server that’s supposed to have high standards. Instead we turned into this teaching server where everyone deserves 10 chances. It’s obvious why standards have suffered. People are let in this server with far too much leniency, then allowed to stay with 10 different warnings in every category of the rules.
 

You wonder why there’s so many low tier players? There’s your answer. In this case it’s been multiple years of quantity > quality. The buck stops with how management sees fit to run the server. Players only adjust to what they are allowed to do or get away with. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Brofessor

[mj2002]

1 hour ago, NickyW said:

This is unironically, the literal definition of being a criminal.

 

You can't be a criminal and not do this, unless you exclusively rob/kill other criminals, which is incredibly ballsy/dangerous.

 

Most criminals are criminals because it's an easy way to make money/gain respect. 

 

Because it's easy. Because, just as in real life, "marks" are the best target for crimes. 

 

Why on earth wouldn't you victimize random civilians? 

 

This is all perfectly fine, and I agree with this. But this cannot go hand in hand with the policy of keeping realistic methods of preventing this sort of 'easy crime' out of the roleplay environment because its 'not fair'. If we want to go ahead with the policy where 'in broad daylight' doesn't matter, and only those who are present need to be accounted for, fine. But then that comes with the necessary tools to tackle this in a "realistic" way. Speed cameras, body cameras, facial recognition technology. Everything.

 

You (not you specifically, don't get me wrong) can't have it both ways.

Edited June 29, 2022 by mj2002

[sCrax]

33 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

Again at the risk of sounding like a broken record from the other similar threads….

 

People will never respect the rules unless there is a possibility of a firm and absolute ending to the consequences. Warnings, Ajails, hell even temp bans have no meaning if there is no permanent end to that road. 9 out of 10 people who get “permabanned” are immediately told they can appeal in 2 weeks, 4 weeks, etc.

 

There must be a hard line in the sand. People need to respect that there will be a time where they will not be given a chance to come back. I’ve seen admins use words like “abysmal” when describing certain player’s UCP records in reports. WHY are they still here??? No one should have a record that is described as “abysmal”. They should be gone. They don’t belong on a server that’s supposed to have high standards. Instead we turned into this teaching server where everyone deserves 10 chances. It’s obvious why standards have suffered. People are let in this server with far too much leniency, then allowed to stay with 10 different warnings in every category of the rules.
 

You wonder why there’s so many low tier players? There’s your answer. In this case it’s been multiple years of quantity > quality. The buck stops with how management sees fit to run the server. Players only adjust to what they are allowed to do or get away with. 

^ Exactly this. This has been brought up so many times and I honestly feel like it will never change. Management decided to prioritise quantity over quality which is completely understandable. More players = more money. But this is reaching a dangerous line which can ruin this server completely as soon as other text-based servers open.

 

Everyone had to go through an application which should ensure that everyone is familiar with the server rules unless they copied the answers. There is no such thing as making the same "genuine" mistake 10 times in a row here. If someone shows malicious intent? Permaban them straight away. And no, permaban doesn't mean "post an unban request in 2 weeks". Staff members should grow some balls and stop being afraid of players reporting them for harsh punishments. Otherwise we can just change the server description to "text-based freeroam server".

Edited June 29, 2022 by sCrax

[Mistery14]

4 minutes ago, sCrax said:

Staff members should grow some balls and stop being afraid of players reporting them for harsh punishments. Otherwise we can just change the server description to "text-based freeroam server".

 

I don't think it's the correct way to put it, we can't expect let alone afford staff members risking their positions by starting to perma-ban left and right, they still have to follow server policy, rules and what I assume would be their own administrative guidelines. I don't think admins are inherently afraid to hand out harsh punishment, they're just less inclined to do so due to the nature of the server's lenient policies. It wouldn't make much sense for one admin to start banning someone for the same offenses that would get another player an ajail by another admin. Every staff member should be on the same page and not do their own thing as this would suggest.

 

But as anyone would agree, there has to be a line drawn and people need to respect the rules more, that's for sure, but we can't excuse going overboard with punishment because we feel like it's lacking.

[sCrax]

4 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

 

I don't think it's the correct way to put it, we can't expect let alone afford staff members risking their positions by starting to perma-ban left and right, they still have to follow server policy, rules and what I assume would be their own administrative guidelines. I don't think admins are inherently afraid to hand out harsh punishment, they're just less inclined to do so due to the nature of the server's lenient policies. It wouldn't make much sense for one admin to start banning someone for the same offenses that would get another player an ajail by another admin. Every staff member should be on the same page and not do their own thing as this would suggest.

 

But as anyone would agree, there has to be a line drawn and people need to respect the rules more, that's for sure, but we can't excuse going overboard with punishment because we feel like it's lacking.

Well I doubt that their guidelines dictate to warn players 10 times for breaking the same rules over and over again. Or to unban permabanned players after a week.

[Midwest]

1 hour ago, Mistery14 said:

 

While I agree with most of it, one thing I'll definitely disagree with specifically is the whole "Barring X player from Y faction" based on their record.

 

While I understand the logic behind it, this would imply that any other faction that the player with the poor record will be able to join requires less quality for RP standards, which is absolutely not the case. Regardless if it's LSSD, LSPD, or any first-responder role, or hell, even something like bartending, players should be expected to provide good roleplay and no faction or role should be exempt from that. In addition to that, if the player ends up improving their behavior/RP, their record remains permanent, so they will be stuck with less options. This could in turn make other players exclude them if they find out that the player has a poor record and automatically assume they are still the same.

 

Nevertheless, actions should have consequences and I definitely do agree with harsher punishment - We need to stop being a "learning server" and finally own up to the fact that this is a Heavy-RP server, there are many other servers to learn on, many websites, videos, that teach the fundamentals of RP. We can be friendly to new players and still function like any other server would without borderline enabling the whole "fuck around and find out" that naturally comes with being too lenient with punishment.

 

"While I understand the logic behind it, this would imply that any other faction that the player with the poor record will be able to join requires less quality for RP standards, which is absolutely not the case." this is a comment which literally counters itself. If someone has a poor record in rp quality, and they're able to join a faction with that poor record, there is indeed a lesser standard. The issue is if you inherently equate this to good or bad it defines your view there. 

Everything is learning, no one is top rate off the bat. And the few people who actually meet "heavy rp" as you term it, recognize that they're still constantly learning, there is no limit cap. If you rack up a bad record, that's on you, no one should hold your hand and cake walk you through fixing up your image or just ignore your past. That's on you, it's your effort, your matters to build on. And no, that record does not remain permanent, I'll have someone else reply who is a prime case of exactly what you're talking about. They have been both on the side of having a record which *they did not want to clear up*, and learned more and developed to the point *they did want to clear it up*. This was a defining factor in them being able to do what they wanted.

[Mistery14]

1 minute ago, sCrax said:

Well I doubt that their guidelines dictate to warn players 10 times for breaking the same rules over and over again. Or to unban permabanned players after a week.

 

I'm not sure about any of that, as I haven't set a foot in the staff team. But from my own experiences as a co-owner and staff member unrelated to GTA W, I can tell you that it's not as easy as we like to think it is to shift from a lenient system to a harsher one, this lenient system has been in place for years.

 

Keep in mind that it isn't just a matter of changing the administrator guidelines and be done with it, changing your entire server policies means replacing months, if not years of practice for some admins with their own individual way of handling reports and situations. What about the people that have a current record? If it's bad enough, do we just indiscriminately ban them? It'd be unreasonable. There are countless of other factors to take into account and it's not just "Just ban people for breaking the rules". It just can't be an immediate change.

[i dont wanna od in LA]

1 hour ago, Mistery14 said:

 

While I agree with most of it, one thing I'll definitely disagree with specifically is the whole "Barring X player from Y faction" based on their record.

 

While I understand the logic behind it, this would imply that any other faction that the player with the poor record will be able to join requires less quality for RP standards, which is absolutely not the case. Regardless if it's LSSD, LSPD, or any first-responder role, or hell, even something like bartending, players should be expected to provide good roleplay and no faction or role should be exempt from that. In addition to that, if the player ends up improving their behavior/RP, their record remains permanent, so they will be stuck with less options. This could in turn make other players exclude them if they find out that the player has a poor record and automatically assume they are still the same.

 

Nevertheless, actions should have consequences and I definitely do agree with harsher punishment - We need to stop being a "learning server" and finally own up to the fact that this is a Heavy-RP server, there are many other servers to learn on, many websites, videos, that teach the fundamentals of RP. We can be friendly to new players and still function like any other server would without borderline enabling the whole "fuck around and find out" that naturally comes with being too lenient with punishment.

 

This statement is neither true or accurate. I've been "perm-banned" for two weeks in October 2021 and haven't been punished ever since. Those limitations aren't imposed by the factions, but by LFM/server management - and rightly so. I corrected my wrongs and picked up the right attitude toward this game after having spent nearly 9 months with an entirely clean record. I recognized my own mistakes and developed - and it all took time. This only serves as a prime example that excluding people from this community permanently serves no purpose and that the minimum recruitment standards enforced by legal factions make sense. Recognizing your wrongs and making an effort to improve is very much the core of healthy "correction" system for players known for troublemaking.

[sCrax]

4 minutes ago, Mistery14 said:

 

I'm not sure about any of that, as I haven't set a foot in the staff team. But from my own experiences as a co-owner and staff member unrelated to GTA W, I can tell you that it's not as easy as we like to think it is to shift from a lenient system to a harsher one, this lenient system has been in place for years.

 

Keep in mind that it isn't just a matter of changing the administrator guidelines and be done with it, changing your entire server policies means replacing months, if not years of practice for some admins with their own individual way of handling reports and situations. What about the people that have a current record? If it's bad enough, do we just indiscriminately ban them? It'd be unreasonable. There are countless of other factors to take into account and it's not just "Just ban people for breaking the rules". It just can't be an immediate change.

Why would it be unreasonable? If their record is recent, lengthier than yellow pages and they show malicious intent in their actions then they simply deserve to be removed from the community. It really is not rocket science. People were literally getting banned after 3 ajails 1-2 years ago and nobody complained about it because it helped to keep a decent roleplay standard.

[Mistery14]

6 minutes ago, Midwest said:

"While I understand the logic behind it, this would imply that any other faction that the player with the poor record will be able to join requires less quality for RP standards, which is absolutely not the case." this is a comment which literally counters itself. If someone has a poor record in rp quality, and they're able to join a faction with that poor record, there is indeed a lesser standard. The issue is if you inherently equate this to good or bad it defines your view there. 

Everything is learning, no one is top rate off the bat. And the few people who actually meet "heavy rp" as you term it, recognize that they're still constantly learning, there is no limit cap. If you rack up a bad record, that's on you, no one should hold your hand and cake walk you through fixing up your image or just ignore your past. That's on you, it's your effort, your matters to build on. And no, that record does not remain permanent, I'll have someone else reply who is a prime case of exactly what you're talking about. They have been both on the side of having a record which *they did not want to clear up*, and learned more and developed to the point *they did want to clear it up*. This was a defining factor in them being able to do what they wanted.

 

Of course, everyone is still learning, each server is different and no matter if you've been RPing for a while or not you'll always have to adapt.

 

But what I mean is, what can we hope to achieve if we restrict RP avenues to people with a record? You say they can better themselves, I believe that and stated so. But why would LSSD/LSPD for example be restricted to them if they could provide equally horrendous RP in other factions and jobs that would still be available to them? Can't they just join, say a mechanic shop and start chopping cars without RP? Or RP as a hospital employee and start abusing their abilities?

 

If people clearly show that they're willing to progress, and do progress even with a record, they shouldn't be restricted of their access to factions just because of their records.