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Punishments should reflect the rules broken and damage inflicted on players.


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15 minutes ago, Frezemis said:

In regards to the mapping report I've discussed it with Wuhtah and we've come to an agreement on that one. Wuhtah did not do anything wrong as it's the players first offense in that specific area and it was not a leinecy concern it's more of a concern of it not being specific in the rules. The player showed malicious intent and has been on the server long enough to understand that after doing further digging into it. Wuhtah's been doing a fantastic job and she does stick her neck out a lot especially on a public stance on a majority of these forum topics.

 

I haven't read all the pages here aside from a couple but from my understanding the community is asking for stricter punishments or some sort of punishment scale. I will bring this up to the management level and we will discuss internally about this topic. There is not much else I can add without it being set in stone but I will let this topic continue as long as it stays on topic. We portray a serious roleplay server and I intend of keeping up the standards of that because if we don't keep up that standard it will just downfall and leave a bad taste in a lot of our veteran members that were adjusted to serious roleplay.

First, thanks for responding. I respect that you're trying to better the server and the community. Second, see my post just above yours. Your first discussion should be this whole "it was their first offense in that specific area". That shouldn't be a thing. Rules are rules. They shouldn't be broken up into, "they've broken other rules, but they get a warning because they haven't broken that specific rule before". If they break rules, they break rules. Players are expected to read the rules and know/understand them. Ignorance after being warned more than once shouldn't be an excuse for leniency. The rules are there for everyone to read. Extending warnings based on "they haven't broken THAT rule before" is just a road that leads to nowhere good.

Edited by Brofessor
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3 minutes ago, Frezemis said:

In regards to the mapping report I've discussed it with Wuhtah and we've come to an agreement on that one. Wuhtah did not do anything wrong as it's the players first offense in that specific area and it was not a leinecy concern it's more of a concern of it not being specific in the rules. The player showed malicious intent and has been on the server long enough to understand that after doing further digging into it. Wuhtah's been doing a fantastic job and she does stick her neck out a lot especially on a public stance on a majority of these forum topics.

 

I haven't read all the pages here aside from a couple but from my understanding the community is asking for stricter punishments or some sort of punishment scale. I will bring this up to the management level and we will discuss internally about this topic. There is not much else I can add without it being set in stone but I will let this topic continue as long as it stays on topic. We portray a serious roleplay server and I intend of keeping up the standards of that because if we don't keep up that standard it will just downfall and leave a bad taste in a lot of our veteran members that were adjusted to serious roleplay.

 

I don't think a single person in this whole thread once blamed Wuhtah, infact everyone seems to understand that she's just doing as she's been taught. I can't do anything but commend her for how she's handled this. But back on point, this is where a lot of the problems are stemming from, admins are taught to be too lenient. It's not just about stricter punishments, but them being reflective and proportionate to how it negatively effected the victims (for want of a better word) as often they do not and as a result it's not being taken seriously. 

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5 minutes ago, Frezemis said:

In regards to the mapping report I've discussed it with Wuhtah and we've come to an agreement on that one. Wuhtah did not do anything wrong as it's the players first offense in that specific area and it was not a leinecy concern it's more of a concern of it not being specific in the rules. The player showed malicious intent and has been on the server long enough to understand that after doing further digging into it. Wuhtah's been doing a fantastic job and she does stick her neck out a lot especially on a public stance on a majority of these forum topics.

 

I haven't read all the pages here aside from a couple but from my understanding the community is asking for stricter punishments or some sort of punishment scale. I will bring this up to the management level and we will discuss internally about this topic. There is not much else I can add without it being set in stone but I will let this topic continue as long as it stays on topic. We portray a serious roleplay server and I intend of keeping up the standards of that because if we don't keep up that standard it will just downfall and leave a bad taste in a lot of our veteran members that were adjusted to serious roleplay.

 

The bit I made bold is the entire problem. It's common sense that you don't do this (time on the server doesn't even matter), thus the punishment should be harsh. Wuhtah indeed did nothing wrong. If this stuff needs to be specified in rules for staff to act on it (which it doesn't, rule 0 exists) then management needs to step up and draw the line, because no, this needs no specification, much less than what is already specified in the rules, does, in fact. And indeed, the example shouldn't derail the thread, but it's exposing a much larger issue, which is what it was linked for to begin with.

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1 minute ago, Triple Seven said:

 

The bit I made bold is the entire problem. It's common sense that you don't do this (time on the server doesn't even matter), thus the punishment should be harsh. Wuhtah indeed did nothing wrong. If this stuff needs to be specified in rules for staff to act on it (which it doesn't, rule 0 exists) then management needs to step up and draw the line, because no, this needs no specification, much less than what is already specified in the rules, does, in fact. And indeed, the example shouldn't derail the thread, but it's exposing a much larger issue, which is what it was linked for to begin with.

 

Exactly why I used it as an example, thanks for putting it so well!

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People during the application stage have time to read the rules. Look over them and apply them into their application. Whenever these people brake rules it most likely isn’t the matter of people “forgetting”. I feel like it should be divided in two;

 

Intentional rule break/big rule break = Perm Ban (possibility of appeal up to the admin)

 

Unintentional/showing signs of empathy/minor rule break = kick or in cases that are a bit more extreme temp ban. Condition during the temp ban would be having them show interest in the community, engage in chat, help people on the forum, etc. Something that shows administrators that they care about the server and want back. 
 

Like someone mentioned this sever doesn’t have 80 players barely able to get people on. There should be no excuses for rulebreak. It sucks for the party effected. 
 

 

That’s my take (sorry if bad england I’m on phone)
 

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1 hour ago, oliviarav3n said:

Be careful what you wish for: it may be you that makes a genuine mistake and faces a harsh ban! 😬

 

To be fair you're all drawing a strawman argument here. The issue doesn't lie with punishment of people that make small mistakes and the punishment being too proportional. The issue lies with people who actively grief other people's roleplay, have an attitude and go on to lie when malicious intent is super obvious. It's all about intent here. The report in OP is a clear example of that. Jamal jeopardizes other people's roleplay and efforts. It's not fun, and deleting somebody else's hard work in-game was never going to be a fun roleplay experience for the victimizing party. You can't make me believe that Jamal thought people were going to have a good time! Nothing could come of it but hostilities. Especially considering the victims were civilians that would never go so far as to use any form of violence to retaliate. It's almost unfair. I feel so gutted for the mapper cause he's such a nice person OOC, and I feel like the reporting party just got trampled here in their efforts to just have a good time. It's demotivating as hell.

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8 minutes ago, Solsroyce said:

 

To be fair you're all drawing a strawman argument here. The issue doesn't lie with punishment of people that make small mistakes and the punishment being too proportional. The issue lies with people who actively grief other people's roleplay, have an attitude and go on to lie when malicious intent is super obvious. It's all about intent here. The report in OP is a clear example of that. Jamal jeopardizes other people's roleplay and efforts. It's not fun, and deleting somebody else's hard work in-game was never going to be a fun roleplay experience for the victimizing party. You can't make me believe that Jamal thought people were going to have a good time! Nothing could come of it but hostilities. Especially considering the victims were civilians that would never go so far as to use any form of violence to retaliate. It's almost unfair. I feel so gutted for the mapper cause he's such a nice person OOC, and I feel like the reporting party just got trampled here in their efforts to just have a good time. It's demotivating as hell.

I think your concern about what happened is totally fair. I don't think what I said was a "strawman" when you look at all the other points that I made. Punishments should fit the offense, absolutely - I think it goes without saying. I feel terrible for what happened in that case too. I'd be furious and demotivated. I think the larger point is if you ask 5 admins what the punishment for something should be, they're probably all going to have a differing opinion on both severity and what to do about it.

Edited by oliviarav3n
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55 minutes ago, Frezemis said:

In regards to the mapping report I've discussed it with Wuhtah and we've come to an agreement on that one. Wuhtah did not do anything wrong as it's the players first offense in that specific area and it was not a leinecy concern it's more of a concern of it not being specific in the rules. The player showed malicious intent and has been on the server long enough to understand that after doing further digging into it. Wuhtah's been doing a fantastic job and she does stick her neck out a lot especially on a public stance on a majority of these forum topics.

 

I haven't read all the pages here aside from a couple but from my understanding the community is asking for stricter punishments or some sort of punishment scale. I will bring this up to the management level and we will discuss internally about this topic. There is not much else I can add without it being set in stone but I will let this topic continue as long as it stays on topic. We portray a serious roleplay server and I intend of keeping up the standards of that because if we don't keep up that standard it will just downfall and leave a bad taste in a lot of our veteran members that were adjusted to serious roleplay.

I appreciate that you responded on this topic, I'd love to see some sort of change on how offenders are handled. Though I do have to agree with:

46 minutes ago, Brofessor said:

First, thanks for responding. I respect that you're trying to better the server and the community. Second, see my post just above yours. Your first discussion should be this whole "it was their first offense in that specific area". That shouldn't be a thing. Rules are rules. They shouldn't be broken up into, "they've broken other rules, but they get a warning because they haven't broken that specific rule before". If they break rules, they break rules. Players are expected to read the rules and know/understand them. Ignorance after being warned more than once shouldn't be an excuse for leniency. The rules are there for everyone to read. Extending warnings based on "they haven't broken THAT rule before" is just a road that leads to nowhere good.

First offense in that area, should not be factor for leniency especially if his record is not clean, meaning that they broke the rules before, doing something like that report with selling furniture out of spite, clearly knowing the rules yet ignoring them shows that previous rule breaks and punishment did not teach them a lesson to not do that. I'd understand if person has clean record and clearly displays remorse for his actions, clearly shows signs of understanding of the mistake he/she has made. Such a person can learn from just a warning. But we all know, that not all players are willing to actually admit their guilt and take responsibility for their actions (even in real life, met people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions, shoveling it on to the next person instead of admitting it was them).

 

Moreover, if a person received a permanent ban, that should not be overturned within a week unless affected player has substantial evidence to clear his name. I recall the times when affected players were told to wait three, six months or even a year before appealing their ban. What has changed that now people overturn their punishment on a technicality? I understand when there is enough evidence to prove the affected player was wrongly banned, but I do not believe that EVERY appeal has that to back their appeal within a week.

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I had the same thought, a warning and money removed from their account /really/ just isn't going to cut it. This person should've been punished by either hiring someone and paying out of their own pocket or doing it themselves and unfuck what they've fucked. But I do however agree that some people do some really dumbshit and get underpunished.

 

I sympathize with some admins who just don't want to give out the ban hammer immediately because they don't want to seem harsh but I do feel like it should be really necessary sometimes.

 

Spoiler

 

Take what happened to me with the shooting outside of my own gun store as an example. Those guys just got a note and got given the benefit of the doubt and never got punished for the other shit they did, the powergaming, the alleged metagaming(They have their video muted), etc. With all due respect to the handling admin, just a note on those guys' records for something like this is just not enough of a punishment.

Edited by Venturoliam
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38 minutes ago, oliviarav3n said:

I think your concern about what happened is totally fair. I don't think what I said was a "strawman" when you look at all the other points that I made. Punishments should fit the offense, absolutely - I think it goes without saying. I feel terrible for what happened in that case too. I'd be furious and demotivated. I think the larger point is if you ask 5 admins what the punishment for something should be, they're probably all going to have a differing opinion on both severity and what to do about it.

I get your point. I'm just saying, and what I mean by 'strawman', is that harsher punishments for certain offenses doesn't neccesarily mean that model roleplayers get punished too harshly. The argument disqualifies the solution as if it's a bad thing, when it's not, because it instigates fear of being too hard and punishing differently (and in some instances harder) leads to the situation we're in right now.

 

You can write rough guidelines to gauge intent and measure attitude to come to a fair conclusion that's in the benefit of the server and its players. Are you out to start shit and grief RP? Get out. Are you going to argue and are you unwilling to see it from both sides? You disqualify yourself.

 

'Fair' doesn't mean that everybody's always happy or gets their sweet revenge. But it just feels bittersweet when somebody scores bad on the former and then just gets away with a warning. It's a useless conclusion, because the reported party feels no remorse, doesn't feel they're in the wrong and while they might not grief an interior again, they're going to carry that same shitty attitude into other roleplay situations. It's more the intent with which some players roleplay that renders a lot of interactions toxic, and it goes unpunished. The sad reality is that I have never heard anybody speak positively about the vibe in the illegal scene for instance, and this was 100% different on other servers I have played at.

 

I don't know how to add anything constructive to this discussion anymore because I don't know these admin handbooks and guidelines people talk about, so I'm going to stop here. I just want to add that if these guidelines is what Wuhtah followed in the OP something is off and is restricting her. At the same time if you say 5 admins come to such different conclusions, then what do these handbooks and guidelines do? And don't forget that rules and enforcing rules is just an instrument to achieve and maintain some kind of vision on what entails good roleplay and what is desirable. What I and Frezemis understand under "standards" might be two completely different things, so you have to formulate a central vision and curate it as the server develops and you gain new insights as a staff team.

Edited by Solsroyce
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