Whats with the admin response time?

[Selena]

Let’s keep this on topic please 🙂

[Mecovy]

i can sum it up quite nicely.

 

imagine u got this role, cool right? well wait until the constant messages start hitting you at all hours (even when you're sleeping, working or even just playing other games), when players get close to you to try get admin favors, people insult you on a daily basis regardless of what you do, you joined this server to rp, and the more work you take on an admin, the less and less that's possible.

 

now do that for months, years in the cases of some admins. Now, answer honestly, if you got treated like this, would you still jump and bound to do reports? no, most sane people get burnt out and dip, and the ones with true tenacity on this type of matter climb up. This isn't a GTA W issue, none of management have any fault, its a player mentality issue. These people aren't your servants, they'll get to you when they can. And like most humans have a habit of doing, sometimes they forget, and if its say been 4 weeks on something that typically takes one, all you need to do then is send 1 simple forum pm asking for an update.

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Mecovy

[Wuhtah]

2 hours ago, Zach.. said:

This is a decent suggestion. In PD at least, there's maybe 1-2 search warrant a week. Why not let these happen on their own, then FM can review it after/periodically check on them or even have PD submit a copy of their logs after? This would speed things up immensely.

 

I dig this, since this is a general discussion thread - I do recommend throwing it up as a suggestion. 

 

1 hour ago, radreaper100 said:

- needing an admin to hold up a 24/7 even for just the rp and not taking any cash or items

- cant use a car/bike/BICYCLE in a robbery without approval

- cant rob too far from your neighborhood without approval

- cant mug in like half the places that shit actually happens in OOCly unless u got an admin's ok or "historical claim" (im looking at you, vespucci)

- cant mutually void a car crash without approval, cant mutually avoid ANYTHING without approval

- cant wear any of the non-blacklisted t-shirts that say police, or any of the generic EMS stuff and try to scam/pose/impersonate ICly without approval

- cant break into a house without approval

- cant break into a safe without approval if the house is unlocked

 

like come on man, you cant do shit without approval

 

i swear i spend more time explaining why my character does xyz or validating my character's actions via forums/pm/leadership than actually roleplaying my character. for a server so bent on "ALWAYS REMAINING IC" we sure dont like do that shit

 

too much micromanaging, an overabundant reliance on an antiquated system with archaic rules that dont belong in a server with this population or put too much stress on it. the worst part is i cant even become an admin or a support to try to help, id never be accepted and thats the sad part because i cant even begin to try and implement a solution 

 

More than 80% of the server complained about this happening in which why rules have been implemented like the ones you've listed that need approval. This was probably a huge decision on management as well because it DOES restrict, but it was clearly needed. 

 

All of the things you have said are related to the illegal-side RP which, in all fairness, is where most of the reports come from. I know there are TONS of illegal RPers that are fantastic in roleplay, level-headed, etc. I appreciate that side, I don't and won't understand it completely, but I don't want them to be restricted. However, since the problems tend to stem from that 'SIDE' (I am not saying LEO or legal RPers are perfect, there are still plenty of reports on them) - rules tend to then try to 'iron out' the issues over there. 

 

So instead of complaining about it, give suggestions. People were robbing in the most unrealistic ways - how do we solve that? Well, the hot topic right now is to permanent ban or make use of temporary bans - which this was suggested in a rule suggestion thread (deal out harsher punishments, especially for repeated offenders). So, this might be in the works of being fixed, I can't comment on it as I'm not a member of management, but I do know it was forwarded. 

 

1 hour ago, Cleveland said:

That's always been a staple of every server, as it has the fact that 40% of the players reports could be solved by more communication. What hasn't been part of every server is the amount of bureaucracy and red tape that make any DMV look like a stroll in the park compared to GTA:W. If admins were only in charge of reports, chances are there'd be far less cases of burnout among them. Instead they have to manage reports, properties, vehicles, faction concepts, make monthly charts about guns and drug usage and so on and so forth, all activities that bring almost nothing in terms of roleplay in-game and drain the fun out of the game.

 

On the note of communication, it's not like the staff is above having issues in clearly communication what they exactly want or in finding a compromise. They're perhaps the first offenders in being more interested in robotically enforcing rules as opposed to actively encourage roleplay, bureaucracy be damned. Since I've already highlighted enough problematic staff members, feel free to reach out to me if you want me to elaborate on this.

 

 

That's because the staff created a server culture that sees the establishment of rules as a magic cure to all issues, so players have bought into the idea that adding more and more rules will deter troublemakers from making trouble. But even though a speed limit sign can tell you you're not supposed to go over 50 mph, it's not going to stop you from hitting 200 mph.

 

Make the staff as reactive force instead of a proactive one. You can't possibly cover every single rule breaking situation that happens and if you try, you end up exactly in the situation you guys are now, burned out and stretched thin. Why on God's green Earth do players have to ask for an admin's permission to skip a car crash by mutual consent? 

 

In regards to the community wanting the rules being enforced more harshly, the problem is not the harshness, but rather the absolutely flippant way in which they're enforced by different admins. For a server that preaches a lot about standards, the staff seems to have none in regards to the enforcement rules, with repeated rulebreakers being given warnings after warnings while first-time offenders go straight to the ban can.

 

Maybe adding rules about it will fix the problem.

 

I appreciate your bluntness, but with every server - there is red tape. Newer servers, less red tape. Less populated servers - less red tape. In this next one, you mentioned pretty much only IFM and PM subteams, there are RPQM, normal admins, LFM, forum moderation, contuinity, whatever else. Managing reports will always be a thing. Managing properties has ben a thing we have been doing a few different changes with. However, do you really think we're going to improve in a night? In a month? No, lol. I don't know if you know - but property requests used to take 2-3 months. We have made it so it's 2 weeks now is the majority maximum waiting time - sometimes this goes over depending if we're waiting on IFM or other issues with the player. That's an astonishing achievement that I am damn proud to be part of a subteam for, 

 

For vehicles, again - I previously mentioned this. Modders/developers (I don't know the difference) have to put in their own time to implement vehicles. Vehicles do not take a long time to process and it's easier than requests themselves. Yes, is it annoying to the player? Of course. I am trying to fix that, but again - we also need to make sure portrayal is going correctly here as we try very hard to alleviate RPQM reports as you also can tell they get backed up sometimes and people complain about that. Faction concepts with red tape - you get benefits. You don't need to be in a faction to roleplay. You don't need to REQUEST for vehicle to roleplay. You technically don't even need a business to roleplay. Does it aid in it? Yes. People choose to request it, and we have to make sure it's going in capable hands - if it isn't, we do compromise with players. For admins making monthly charts about guns and drug usage - this helps the playerbase and shows transparency which also was a huge topic a half a year ago, but since we have started steps in that direction, has died down. Now, it's seen as us being burnt out lmao. It's hard to keep both sides of the coin happy and balanced.

 

I believe that the communication between players and administrators is strained and flawed. I am not better than you. I am not above you. I am enforcing the rules, yes. I have multiple players in my DMs daily that have given me shit and have staff reported me - but what do I do? I still help them as you pointed out - it's my 'job'. I will not be the one to complain, I did sign up to help people - but again, like I said previously, the verbal abuse is disgusting. 

 

I would love to reach out to you about problematic staff members, but that is not my place. Please, I beg you - if you get in a situation where a staff member treated you unfairly and was rude to you - staff report them. We hear about a majority of our staff reports, sometimes, staff members get put on final warnings themselves if it's shown to be a consistent problem. Again, we all have our bad days. I'm pretty sure half the server has cussed me out at one point in time - but I don't hold it against them. 

 

Nervous* created a server, and management, helped create that culture where it's open to suggestions from players - to make you guys feel heard, just as I am hearing you about this topic. What if we just locked and archived this thread at that first point made by Zach? Would feel pretty shitty, as I believe you guys deserve to know what goes on behind the scenes and many other admins feel the same way as they have told you so within their responses. 

 

You're right, we cannot cover every single rule which is why Rule 0 is a thing at the admin's discretion. If you think this is abused? Report it. The new rules that have come about now (which I still get confused on until I reread) have been because people consistently break those said rules and complain to staff management about 'This isn't in the rules, yet I was punished for it' are the ones who made the rules be rules to begin with. 

 

To be fair, if mutual consent happens with a car crash, I don't see why you guys couldn't void it. I do recommend screenshots to hold yourselves accountable in case this does come up in a player report (it has before). I am not saying DO this, but I am saying this could be a suggestion as it is pretty miniscule. 

 

I agree, there are specific cases where I go "I don't understand this punishment" whether too lenient or even too harsh. I believe it should be looked over again, and it is. 

 

Again, I want to thank you for your opinion and your contribution. Also, thank you, as a player for helping other players. People seem to think that they need to have a red or green name to be helpful and that's not the case. So, thank you for your time in making the server a bit better by being that way instead of rude/toxic and go "you're just fucking stupid". 🙂 

 

52 minutes ago, Akhmed Shamkhalaev said:

I think the administration handbook should be published to the forums, and I think that the rules/procedures/policies that admins need to abide by in terms of response times/handling of incidents should be published too.

 

This would allow players to 1) understand what the staff team can/can't/should/shouldn't be doing and 2) hold staff accountable when they are doing the wrong thing, and give praise when they are doing the right thing. Admins are the closest thing we have to server-wide cops, whether that's the intention or not - so publishing that stuff like we publish the law/common procedure would be in the community's best interest.

 

I also think the staff management team/Nervous should (if it doesn't already exist) create and publicize an administrators mandate. The mandate should be fleshed out and dictate what the purpose of having admins is for and when they should/shouldn't be stepping in. Would do a lot to have admins be considered as 'members of the community with elevated powers working for the community' rather than the odd admin who goes power hungry and serves their friends who then tarnishes the staff team's reputation.

 

We should also give more powers/commands to players for things to be fixed for themselves. 

 

For example, /fixveh is a perfect example of doing something right. If I needed to /report to have /fixveh done I'd go insane. 

 

Having an admin spectate people/give permission for doing things such as shooting people in businesses etc is just game limiting in some circumstances and frustrating. 

 

The response time of admin reports in game on this server is nothing short of atrocious and should be improved, and it's not difficult to do. I think the whole staff structure needs a massive overhaul. It stinks of inefficiency and unaccountability. 

 

As Selena stated, this is a bit off topic. The handbook I do not believe should be published, not to hide anything, but simply - it's not needed. Staff Management is literally your handbook. Players are encouraged to report staff members if they think they were abusing the system in any way. Even if you are wrong, staff management gives you some information of why and that's always nice to hear. It's like player reports in that regard. You got DM'd - or think you did - so you'll player report. The handling administrator will tell the other person, the other person will give you the information of why you're in the wrong, and if you're not stubborn - you'd go "Oh, I remember, thanks. I'll drop the report now." Again, if you disagree, that's okay too. Explain respectfully why you disagree and perhaps suggest something to fix it for future occurrences. Will this always have the outcome you want? Nope. Welcome to real life (I do not mean this in a sarcastic manner). 

 

Again, if you read what Wally said previously - they are looking to perhaps getting support members some commands in game to help with these types of reports and issues - but you won't see that for quite some time. 

 

Instead of saying it needs an overhaul, I would appreciate some suggestions besides the ones you have listed as there have been multiple points addressing them within this thread already, but again, the issue and topic at hand "What's with the admin response time" - so let's stay within that scope. 

 

31 minutes ago, Mecovy said:

i can sum it up quite nicely.

 

imagine u got this role, cool right? well wait until the constant messages start hitting you at all hours (even when you're sleeping, working or even just playing other games), when players get close to you to try get admin favors, people insult you on a daily basis regardless of what you do, you joined this server to rp, and the more work you take on an admin, the less and less that's possible.

 

now do that for months, years in the cases of some admins. Now, answer honestly, if you got treated like this, would you still jump and bound to do reports? no, most sane people get burnt out and dip, and the ones with true tenacity on this type of matter climb up. This isn't a GTA W issue, none of management have any fault, its a player mentality issue. These people aren't your servants, they'll get to you when they can. And like most humans have a habit of doing, sometimes they forget, and if its say been 4 weeks on something that typically takes one, all you need to do then is send 1 simple forum pm asking for an update.

 

 

Bless, this is a true response and I appreciate your response as well from a retired administrator point of view. 

 

All in all, I understand the response times are slow. I have given you guys some alternatives to break-ins/warrants because the time I had where I was on for 2-8 hours a day is limited to maybe 1 hour every other day. Most of my work now is on the UCP and forums, so that leaves me lacking in in-game activity reports (I do still meet my quota every month). Yes, right now the forum reports are also behind and have been behind, but since the new system has been implemented, they have been being handled a bit more frequently than how it was to begin with. And I also appreciate the new system because seriously - if you guys gave these essays to your professors, they'd be impressed of how much you can write just on DMing.

 

 

[Junx]

56 minutes ago, Akhmed Shamkhalaev said:

I think the administration handbook should be published to the forums, and I think that the rules/procedures/policies that admins need to abide by in terms of response times/handling of incidents should be published too.

 

This would allow players to 1) understand what the staff team can/can't/should/shouldn't be doing and 2) hold staff accountable when they are doing the wrong thing, and give praise when they are doing the right thing. Admins are the closest thing we have to server-wide cops, whether that's the intention or not - so publishing that stuff like we publish the law/common procedure would be in the community's best interest.

 

I also think the staff management team/Nervous should (if it doesn't already exist) create and publicize an administrators mandate. The mandate should be fleshed out and dictate what the purpose of having admins is for and when they should/shouldn't be stepping in. Would do a lot to have admins be considered as 'members of the community with elevated powers working for the community' rather than the odd admin who goes power hungry and serves their friends who then tarnishes the staff team's reputation.

 

We should also give more powers/commands to players for things to be fixed for themselves. 

 

For example, /fixveh is a perfect example of doing something right. If I needed to /report to have /fixveh done I'd go insane. 

 

Having an admin spectate people/give permission for doing things such as shooting people in businesses etc is just game limiting in some circumstances and frustrating. 

 

The response time of admin reports in game on this server is nothing short of atrocious and should be improved, and it's not difficult to do. I think the whole staff structure needs a massive overhaul. It stinks of inefficiency and unaccountability. 

 

Agreed

[Zach..]

Another suggestion would be some sort of categorization of the reports submitted. When you submit you a report you need to specify what its about. "Script help" "Utility"

"RP Report" etc. This would help get the real easy reports like "I need my car flipped" sorted and handled more quickly, in my opinion. Then the RP reports can be handled in order of submission.

[Adv]

2 hours ago, Junx said:

 

I think the administration handbook should be published to the forums, and I think that the rules/procedures/policies that admins need to abide by in terms of response times/handling of incidents should be published too.

 

I just want to add on to this. 

 

The Admin Handbook is a set of tools and regularly updated procedures on how to interpret the rules, and how best to handle situations. We have one for the Support Team, too.

 

This isn't a legal document, nor is it a perfect document. If we publish it to the community, people are going to find ways around situations by following the precedent, when-- all situations are different. Not all situations match the precedents or guidelines set about by the handbook - and the reality is? Most Admins are more likely to have the "In-Game Rules" bookmarked, instead of the Admin Handbook, as they provide way more relevance on how certain things should be interpreted.

 

The Admin Handbook provides some simple rules, that we as administrators have to follow- but other than that, it's a toolbox to help us with our day. Every Subteam has manuals, about how best to handle certain situations, and what is the precedent and protocol for handling something. To an extent, I agree that we should be transparent about how we handle it - and as Staff Management, it's something we strive to do. If you have a question, we'll answer it. But, opening the Staff Handbook up, and providing a link to players has a high chance of people finding loopholes around it.

 

It's the same reason we don't publish, or tell people what we log, how admin alerts are shown ingame, how much we have to handle and we aren't open about the way reports are worded, and the things we get asked on a day-to-day basis.

 

There's a lot of ambiguity in the role of an administrator, and the manual isn't a clear guide on how to handle it. It's just, something there to support administrators with the basics.

 

Wuhtah was right, if you feel like a Staff Member didn't follow the handbook, or the way you feel it should be handled, Staff Report them and we shall dig deeper into it, and determine the best course of action.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Adv

[Xaleya]

7 hours ago, radreaper100 said:

- needing an admin to hold up a 24/7 even for just the rp and not taking any cash or items

- cant use a car/bike/BICYCLE in a robbery without approval

- cant rob too far from your neighborhood without approval

- cant mug in like half the places that shit actually happens in OOCly unless u got an admin's ok or "historical claim" (im looking at you, vespucci)

- cant mutually void a car crash without approval, cant mutually avoid ANYTHING without approval

- cant wear any of the non-blacklisted t-shirts that say police, or any of the generic EMS stuff and try to scam/pose/impersonate ICly without approval

- cant break into a house without approval

- cant break into a safe without approval if the house is unlocked

 

like come on man, you cant do shit without approval

 

i swear i spend more time explaining why my character does xyz or validating my character's actions via forums/pm/leadership than actually roleplaying my character. for a server so bent on "ALWAYS REMAINING IC" we sure dont like do that shit

 

too much micromanaging, an overabundant reliance on an antiquated system with archaic rules that dont belong in a server with this population or put too much stress on it. the worst part is i cant even become an admin or a support to try to help, id never be accepted and thats the sad part because i cant even begin to try and implement a solution 

You are old enough on this community to know why such rules were made.
Not because you or the staff "need to control the players"

But because there always was "yourtypicaldumbassIllegalroleplayer" wandering around the map, robbing everyone around not caring if it was day, night or some place where they could be caught, if no players around, they robbed you, even if it was a zone dominated by illegal factions because they were grinding PF guns or any kind of gun, searching every single part of your body with /me and doing it with no regret.

Lets point I'm not bitching illegal roleplayers but pointing at the bad apples who caused this to become a thing, because every single group has bad apples who will cause stuff to become rules because the utter need of exploiting weakness, yeah it's part of human nature but people can't behave themselves.

Even with such rules being active, we still have people actively doing the same thing over and over... So the problem is related to certain community members who can't behave themselves because they want to have fun by annoying others.

It even goes to the extremes of telling a person "Like bro, you can't rob someone in front of the bank, have you read the rules?" and you get simple answers "Are you admin?" If the answer is "No" they will simply tell you to stop PMing them because "you are annoying them". Of course I've seen the same behaviour from civilians and legal players too. So it's not limited to "illegal rpers" (In case of anyone trying to point fingers grudge against them but using a example from personal experience)
 

[-Vagrant-]

As an LEO roleplayer, I sometimes get overwhelmed by the fact that we're only about 20 people online at most at times, trying to manage 5 shootouts going on at the same time, several crime scenes, trying to manage scenarios where large fights break out and keep the flow of RP going while dealing with all this chaos. And then I think about the fact that we have maybe 15 people managing all the people on the server, every dispute, argument, cluster fuck scenario that goes out of hand, on top of all the trolls just coming in to dick around and not actually roleplay --- it puts in perspective just how much the Admins have to put up with, and when you consider they're probably not getting paid? Also probably trying to squeeze in a little bit of time here and there to just enjoy the game -- really makes you think twice about talking them down on the long wait times.

Listen, best course of action is to put a report on the forum, and just go with the flow of RP and the turn of events. You get DM'ed? So be it. Roleplay it out. Document your evidence. Put it in a post here on the forum. And sooner or later, that will get a resolution. We all just need to be patient and have realistic expectations on the extreme demand that is being carried on the shoulders of our admins.

[Viscaria]

20 hours ago, shotgun_sam said:

This is on LSPD/LSSD though. They have standards of RP and it takes a long time (from what I'm aware) to even partake in these situations. I highly doubt that LSPD/LSSD leadership would ever let any RP like that slide. This just kinda implies you, or the admin team, have zero faith in our legal faction management. It could even be a case of LFM admins checking through the logs making sure everyhting went well after the scene.

 

As many others have said the admin team brought this upon themselves by the amount of bureaucrasy and hoops you have to go through.

The issue is that faction leadership aren't able to monitor this unless you would like leadership to attend every search warrant ICly which has its own complications, also by this same reasoning, IFM should trust official factions to be able to do burglary while having their faction leadership supervising. The other issue with this suggestion is how would you take the items from the property? and when it comes to LFM checking logs that unfortunately is too much to ask, especially with not only current workload but also the fact that as it stands only 1 LFM admin is able to do this, and is the head of LFM who has the most work of all.

Its not about having zero faith in faction leaders, as faction handlers we typically work very close with them and a certain level of trust is required, the issue is that the suggestion provided isn't practical and if we did allow this, it would only be fair for illegal factions to have a similar courtesy.

[kuchera]

37 minutes ago, Viscaria said:

 and when it comes to LFM checking logs that unfortunately is too much to ask, especially with not only current workload but also the fact that as it stands only 1 LFM admin is able to do this, and is the head of LFM who has the most work of all.
 

Okay so this needs to be fixed then. A lot of these things seems to be the admin team shooting themselves in the foot, and then saying “sorry we can’t help, we got a bullet wound” Let someone else do it too. 
 

Every admin response seems to entice some sort of guilt trip or victimization over the fact that they are put in this position. Players should not have to feel bad, or demotivated because admins don’t feel like doing what they’re supposed to do. The volunteer excuse is so lame, because Volunteer Firefighters exist, and I promise you “this isn’t my real job so I’m not getting that fire” isn’t something they say. The entire way the server works and your procedures are here because the admin team made them that way. Players didn’t decide only one LFM could have logs, the admin team did. 

 

The admin team or management on this server looks like it's intentionally spreading admins too thin, where they complain about workload, as if SAMP didn't already solve this issue ten years ago. From what I've read there needs to be a revamp. There are servers with a way more intense "workload" that don't have an issue with report response times, because they didn't set them selves up to literally NEED a report to continue roleplay.  In fact, I have never even heard the term "workload" to describe admin duty, and I've been an admin for over four years on SAMP and played for over eleven years. This server has an inefficient admin system that makes admins feel they are "against players" or "forcing more work" on themselves, even though players literally just want to play the game and are following the outdated and sluggish avenues forced upon them.

 

I've never seen admins complain about sweating too much, dying digging their heels into the sand, swinging their pickaxe at a rock until they die, until I played this server. To me, this doesn't seem like an issue of players asking too much, but admins being put into a shitty position, breeding this weird toxic guilt tripping environment that isn't healthy for the server.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Kucheras