RP Enforcement on LSPD/LSSD

[JayPeezy]

On 4/4/2022 at 5:27 AM, knppel said:

Thanks for clarifying, but yeah the base point stands- what's needed to provide more law enforcement is simply more cops (and Sheriffs' Deputies) to be able to respond to more scenes simultaneously.

After all doing a lone traffic stop bears risks sadly- people blasting at traffic units to then evade (may it be for the sake of evading or as they also got drugs) is frequent, I'd also certainly abstain from doing such on my own in that role.

The bigger the playerbase, the more crime will happen to respond to.

The thing with this is, you can't force someone to RP something they don't like so you can't force people into LEO factions. On the other hand, a lot of people do get disqualified for PD/SD due to RP quality and what not. It's hard to balance this because you want the LEO to set the standard for RP since they play such an important role in the server but then again, we're asking for more of them. 

 

The only reason this isn't an issue with PHMC/FD/DMEC is that they can be NPC'd but LEO can't. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by JayPeezy

[ZaE]

32 minutes ago, pateuvasiliu said:

Or, you know, they quit because making rules without consulting people affected by the rules is fucked up

lets consult with the mass dmers in gang rp too to make sure they understand the rules

[KinnyWynny]

the ASD rules are very reasonable and cop response times are near perfect when factoring in the reality that this is a text based roleplay server. Nine minutes is extremely good, when its usually 2-4 minutes. LEO roleplay is the biggest on the server, and they're fine. They don't really need much else.

[Bospy]

5 hours ago, pateuvasiliu said:

It means quite a bit in a debate based on logic. But you weren't interested in that, or arguing in good faith. Your argument is " if you're mad about this rulechange you're play to win " which is simply not worth engaging with.

The facts speak for themselves, plenty pilots quit. If the purpose of LFM is making legal characters quit ( and I'm pretty sure it isn't ) then they're doing a great job.

 

Who cares if pilots quit? They've got the wrong mindsets if they're angry that a rule is restricting them from stalking players who should be able to roleplay without the worry of some helicopter being overhead. What argument are you making? Anyone who's angry about the current rulechange isn't really interested in hearing the perspectives of criminal roleplayers, which by itself is indicate of play to win attitudes. The LAPD doesn't surveil gang neighborhoods with helicopters 24/7 - helicopters make noise in real life!

[pateuvasiliu]

6 hours ago, Bospy said:

The LAPD doesn't surveil gang neighborhoods with helicopters 24/7

The LAPD has one officer murdered in gang neighborhoods a year, not 50. And that's in a far larger city, with a far larger department.

Neighborhood surveillance is an IC consequence of a high crime rate. IC consequences for IC actions.

 

6 hours ago, Bospy said:

which by itself is indicate of play to win attitudes

 

Lmao, that's rich. Introducing OOC rules that make no sense for the sake of a gamey balance is exactly what play to win is.

Edited April 8, 2022 by pateuvasiliu

[eTaylor]

4 hours ago, pateuvasiliu said:

The LAPD has one officer murdered in gang neighborhoods a year, not 50. And that's in a far larger city, with a far larger department.

Neighborhood surveillance is an IC consequence of a high crime rate. IC consequences for IC actions.

 

 

Lmao, that's rich. Introducing OOC rules that make no sense for the sake of a gamey balance is exactly what play to win is.

You’re forgetting that this is a game, a roleplaying game. And what were roleplaying is some pseudo-Californian fever dream. Yes, Los Santos has a high murder rate and officers and deputies are killed more often than any “real” department. Los Santos also has a gang jungle that takes 2.5 minute to walk through. Things aren’t 1:1, and sometimes you need to give each other the suspension of disbelief. We generally only count CKed officers, which rarely happens. That is still no reason to choke out criminal roleplay. There’s a case to be made that that would “solve” crime, but we’re not here to solve crime. 
 

IC consequences for IC actions exist, but they’re reactive. Kill cops on your block and you’ll find yourself in a “tac alert” with tactical teams patrolling your streets, and yes - with helicopters overhead. Except this only lasts about an hour or so. It’s not to punish people for killing cops, the ones that do are usually long gone, either offline or dead. If you’d want to be ultra realistic we’d have a tac alert 24/7, we’d in fact be more comparable to the NCPD and not the LAPD/LASD. But we’re not roleplaying in Night City. 
 

The only people you can blame for the rule are the people who ruined it for themselves by hover camping the 1x1 mile square of gang jungle people have to share. They could’ve done the same the LSSD had done, instead they proved to the server that people can’t be trusted in roles like that. Your job isn’t to catch every crime, respond to every call, or be the most efficient cop policing the server. You’re poisoned by your own mindset if you think it is. You need to learn to let go of arguments like “but realistically” and “ic for ic” to justify destructive policing. This isn’t a winning v losing argument, it’s about yielding to each other and understanding they the server doesn’t just revolve around you. That you, just like everyone else,  want room to roleplay. Do you think it’s fun to roleplay in south central when every second car in traffic is a cop car, when you have a helicopter watching your every move hovering right above you? And how is that remotely fun for the police? 

[pateuvasiliu]

24 minutes ago, eTaylor said:

You’re poisoned by your own mindset if you think it is

I'm not poisoned by anything. My last arrest was in October. I don't play a cop to catch people, I roleplay a character. Your strawman, as usual, fails to impress.

What you don't seem to get into your head is that it's unacceptable to make major rule changes without talking to the people involved. I don't know why you're so prideful that you won't admit this, even the LFM dudes admitted they were in the wrong and had a thread for feedback that changed some things, but the damage was done. Yeah, the helicopter was flying over South Central. And? That's where most of the crime happens. The purpose of LEOs is not to police the server, it's to police the characters, and since 99% of crime happens in South Central that's where they were.

Just like how play to win is bad, play to lose is also bad. Where were those helicopters supposed to be? Fuckin Vinewood, where no one roleplays outside of the days when a nightclub is open?

You throw a lot of big boy words around but your argument falls flat and is full of double standards.

could've done what LSSD has done

Comparing LSSD to LSPD is silly.

Edited April 8, 2022 by pateuvasiliu

[eTaylor]

17 minutes ago, pateuvasiliu said:

I'm not poisoned by anything. My last arrest was in October. I don't play a cop to catch people, I roleplay a character. Your strawman, as usual, fails to impress.

What you don't seem to get into your head is that it's unacceptable to make major rule changes without talking to the people involved. I don't know why you're so prideful that you won't admit this, even the LFM dudes admitted they were in the wrong and had a thread for feedback that changed some things, but the damage was done. Yeah, the helicopter was flying over South Central. And? That's where most of the crime happens. The purpose of LEOs is not to police the server, it's to police the characters, and since 99% of crime happens in South Central that's where they were.

Just like how play to win is bad, play to lose is also bad. Where were those helicopters supposed to be? Fuckin Vinewood, where no one roleplays outside of the days when a nightclub is open?

You throw a lot of big boy words around but your argument falls flat and is full of double standards.
 

Comparing LSSD to LSPD is silly.

Do you even know what a straw man is? It boggles my mind that you can quote debate etiquette and logical philosophy, but at the same completely waltz through your own rules. It’s like all you’re interested in is a segway to claim some fallacy to let everyone know how smort you are. Since you’re so versed in it I’m sure you’ve heard of ignoratio elenchi, non sequitur, ad misericordiam, poisoning the well, and irrelevant conclusion. You’re gaslighting all throughout. Meanwhile you don’t actually respond to anything, you don’t answer questions and you don’t formulate real positions. You just regurgitate different moot arguments without engaging with anyone on anything. If you want a normal debate you actually need to have a debate. This isn’t a thrashing match where you need to persuade anyone, I think you’re missing the purpose of debate. 
 

At the end of the day a decision was made regarding helicopters. That decision was made with the idea to prevent play to win mentality by just camping specific gang neighborhoods in hopes to catch someone who's committing a crime. LFM is currently trying to keep it enjoyable for everyone, and fair for everyone as well. Communication could’ve been better but it is what it is, you can’t take back what happened and instead LFM owned up to it and took feedback. I’ve asked you several questions, none of which you’ve bothered to answer so I’ll just ask you another one here; What is it you want? 

Edited April 8, 2022 by eTaylor

[Bospy]

5 hours ago, pateuvasiliu said:

The LAPD has one officer murdered in gang neighborhoods a year, not 50. And that's in a far larger city, with a far larger department.

Neighborhood surveillance is an IC consequence of a high crime rate. IC consequences for IC actions.

 

Are your officers being murdered taking CKs? If they are, why? I don't CK my character every time I get shot by gangbangers, and gangbangers shouldn't be forced to CK every time they die to cops. We make sacrifices to realism sometimes so we can have fun. Criminals have been forced to make PLENTY of sacrifices for realism - for instance, not being able to rob people based on geography and use getaway vehicles. It's a fugazi - you make sacrifices to realism sometimes for the sake of fun of other players. If we were to mirror realistic crime rates on the server, it would only be realistic for ONE player out of 800 on the server at any one time to be a serious career criminal. There would be two players forced to roleplay delinquent juveniles. The other 796 players would be civilians. There'd also be maybe 10 cops. 

 

This server has made MANY sacrifices to realism that force criminals to adapt to the legal side. This is maybe the first time in a long time that LEO roleplayers have been forced through a rule change to adapt to something illegal roleplayers have been requesting for a long time.

 

We're not here to police the server, we're here to provide quality police roleplay. That's an age old adage from a different game, but it still equally applies here. It's once again a mindset problem. If the crime rate is high, then you can surveil a neighborhood during something like a tactical alert with specific articulatable reasons. I can guarantee you that in real life if police helicopters were sitting on top of a low-income neighborhood in Los Angeles and basically stalking the locals they would be forced to stop by the Courts due to the fourth amendment.

 

5 hours ago, pateuvasiliu said:

Lmao, that's rich. Introducing OOC rules that make no sense for the sake of a gamey balance is exactly what play to win is.

How so? It's preventing one side from winning too often. Criminals don't get to spawn in with a gun and body armor and go chase their enemies. They need to scrounge and earn everything they have. Having helicopters is a nuclear weapon.

 

55 minutes ago, pateuvasiliu said:

What you don't seem to get into your head is that it's unacceptable to make major rule changes without talking to the people involved. I don't know why you're so prideful that you won't admit this, even the LFM dudes admitted they were in the wrong and had a thread for feedback that changed some things, but the damage was done. Yeah, the helicopter was flying over South Central. And? That's where most of the crime happens. The purpose of LEOs is not to police the server, it's to police the characters, and since 99% of crime happens in South Central that's where they were.

 

Do you think anyone on the illegal side was involved in discussions to restrict muggings based on geography? Do you think illegal roleplayers agreed to that change? Do you like that change? Because with your logic that same rule should be gone, too.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Bospy

[Storm]

This discussion has become about something that it really wasn't about. The helicopter stuff is being amended very soon™ after being delayed for internal reasons, but I digress.

 

LFM is not interested in changing the current status quo in regards to how factions should see the scene's they're handling. As a legal faction member your priority should be making sure that the scene that you are handling is done to a high standard and that you're providing enjoyable/immersive roleplay to those around you on that scene, hopping call to call isn't the goal here. There's an argument to be made about resource management in some circumstances, but in others it is quite frankly impossible for every single call to be responded to immediately without sacrificing roleplay standards. While this was posted in a different context here on the same thread, Bospy put it well:

 

Quote

We're not here to police the server, we're here to provide quality police roleplay. That's an age old adage from a different game, but it still equally applies here.