Thoughts on Criminal/Civil Forfeiture?

[Fancy Toothpaste]

With the recent discussion into RICO and dispanding factions by @BadassBaboon I thought I'd open a similar discussion into other common strategies used by US agencies to counteract organized crime in the US: Criminal/Civil Forfeiture.

Here's the RICO thread for anyone interested:

Spoiler

 

For those unfamiliar with both, here's the US codes regarding both:

Spoiler

> Criminal Forfeiture: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/982
> Civil Forfeiture: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/981

For those who don't want read US Codes, I'll grossly over-simplify these very complex processes as best I can:

Criminal Forfeiture is the seizure of assets (property, cash, legally owned firearms, vehicles, ect.) done by law enforcement, against someone who has been convicted of certain federal crimes such as drug trafficking, money laundering, and organized crime. Civil Forfeiture is a little less straightforward, only requiring 'reasonable suspicion that someone is involved in these specified crimes or a criminal organization. Civil forfeiture has seen an increase since the 1980s as a result of the war on drugs.

The primary difference between Civil Forfeiture and Criminal Forfeiture is the burden of proof. In Civil Forfeiture police merely need to believe that the assets are a ‘preponderance of wrongdoing’, with the owner generally having to prove that the assets are 'clean' before they are returned, while Criminal Forfeiture generally follows an individual being found guilty of federal crimes during a trial; I.E being found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

These processes usually work in harmony, wielded by law enforcement agencies in the US to put a great deal of pressure on criminal organizations: often times using civil and criminal forfeiture as bargaining chips to create informants within organizations, or force plea bargains.

After consulting my local discord hugbox (@Bartolomeo@nwah_) I've laid out my own opinion below for those interested in reading it:

Spoiler

Obviously, GTAW has to balance the powers of LEO factions with those of Illegal factions, but with the new financial update, there's room for a more interesting dynamic between legal and illegal factions. Civil and criminal forfeiture could give LEO factions the power to freeze bank accounts; forcing criminals to live off the stashes of hard cash they've been keeping in their shoebox while awaiting trial. It would allow for LEO's to pressure individuals in large-scale organizations into becoming witnesses for the state and create opportunities for criminals to sue the LSPD/LSSD for their assets to be returned after the events of civil forfeiture. It could even lead to greater pressure for organizations to actually launder their cash as a means of being able to avoid civil forfeiture and increase the burden of proof necessary for criminal forfeiture to be successful. Overall, I feel that these two elements could help create a far more interesting dynamic between legal and illegal roleplayers alike.

An addition like this would of course come with its own drawbacks: How would a system like this function without federal courts? How do you deal with people who attempt to name change out of a civil/criminal forfeiture in order to avoid the consequences of their actions? Would it be fair to illegal roleplayers (or anyone else) to lose assets such as houses, cars, cash, and whatever else due to being subject to civil/criminal forfeiture? What would happen to these assets once they've been forfeited? There are a lot of questions I'm not able to answer at this stage, which is why I feel it warrants a discussion from the community.

With all that said, GTAW purports itself as a heavy RP server. As someone who drifts between legal and illegal roleplay, I feel the implementation of systems like this could be of great benefit to the RP of both legal and illegal roleplayers; creating a higher-stakes environment for everyone involved, with higher stakes almost always leading to better roleplay. With that said, I'm wary of the delicate balance held between LEO and illegal roleplayers, and wouldn't want a system like this to be abused or overused, as that could easily detriment the targeted players' willingness to play. Civil forfeiture should never give LEO's a green light to take player assets without proper reasoning.

Before you start typing "This sounds like an IC issue, bring this up with your senator" please keep in mind that something like this would likely need the OOC approval of IFM, LFM, PM, and the community at large to function correctly. That's why I've opened this up to a discussion! Let's please keep this civil and constructive. If you agree/disagree strongly with the idea feel free to share why.

As an aside/related but alternative topic: Would you be fine with seeing criminal forfeiture used without civil forfeiture being implemented?

[Torlo]

I actually really like this idea and I think the notion that criminal rps and legal rpers should have a balance is absurd, that just encourages dumb criminal rp like killing people in broad daylight. Things like this would encourage smart and fun illegal rp. 

[Fancy Toothpaste]

2 minutes ago, Torlo said:

I actually really like this idea and I think the notion that criminal rps and legal rpers should have a balance is absurd, that just encourages dumb criminal rp like killing people in broad daylight. Things like this would encourage smart and fun illegal rp. 

While I can see the logic in "smart policing creates smarter criminals", my reference to balancing the powers of legal and illegal RP is stemmed from a belief that one side of the coin shouldn't completely subjugate the other. We're all here roleplaying together creating a collaborative (and occasionally competitive) story for our characters. There are wins, there are losses, but at the end of the day we all benefit from the roleplay being fun and interesting.

I lean towards the implementation of a system like this because I feel it has the potential to create far more interesting and dynamic roleplay compared to what we currently see on the server, but with all that said the dichotomy between legal and illegal roleplayers only works if both sides are able to create interesting roleplay for each other; that's what the ultimate aim would be.  

[Goonbag]

I like the idea, but I think the execution given the current state of LEO rp and the courts system would be very detrimental to illegal roleplayers. Approval is given by the JSA far too easily on this server and criminals are not afforded any defence because the courts system is so broken at the moment. 
 

I can see it resulting in people having their assets illegally seized and having no way to fight it. 

[Anders]

Tried this, spoke with relevant people. Got yelled at.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fancy Toothpaste]

26 minutes ago, Goonbag said:

I like the idea, but I think the execution given the current state of LEO rp and the courts system would be very detrimental to illegal roleplayers. Approval is given by the JSA far too easily on this server and criminals are not afforded any defence because the courts system is so broken at the moment. 
 

I can see it resulting in people having their assets illegally seized and having no way to fight it. 

Definitely a reasonable concern for civil (and if abused, Criminal) forfeiture.

While I feel the implementation of these processes could have the potential to create a great deal of ingaging, high stakes roleplay I'm also aware that there would need to be a short leash in order to avoid abuse, like the occasional abuse of the 48 hold system which is sometimes used by LEO RPers in a vindictive manner with few IC avenues to counteract.

Civil forfeiture remains very controversial even in real-life applications, and I imagine it would be no less controversial if implemented to this game. With that said, how would you feel about a system in which Criminal Forfeiture exists without Civil Forfeiture; I.E: assets only being forfeited in the event of a court system finding in individual guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for crimes like money laundering, racketeering, drug trafficking, illegal arms dealing, ect.?

Edited February 10, 2022 by Fancy Toothpaste
leash not lease.

[Goonbag]

31 minutes ago, Fancy Toothpaste said:

Definitely a reasonable concern for civil (and if abused, Criminal) forfeiture.

While I feel the implementation of these processes could have the potential to create a great deal of ingaging, high stakes roleplay I'm also aware that there would need to be a short leash in order to avoid abuse, like the occasional abuse of the 48 hold system which is sometimes used by LEO RPers in a vindictive manner with few IC avenues to counteract.

Civil forfeiture remains very controversial even in real-life applications, and I imagine it would be no less controversial if implemented to this game. With that said, how would you feel about a system in which Criminal Forfeiture exists without Civil Forfeiture; I.E: assets only being forfeited in the event of a court system finding in individual guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for crimes like money laundering, racketeering, drug trafficking, illegal arms dealing, ect.?

I’d be happy with this if it was only for cases with not guilty pleas. 
 

However, at the moment you’re pretty much forced to plea no contest because the wait for your trial will likely be 2x longer than the actual prison sentence. 

[Moonsong]

Fully supporting this idea, as it currently stands criminals can easily scam hundreds of thousands of $ from people, end up charged and perhaps after some court roleplay they get jailed. Namechange, job done. They keep all the assets they gained from those crimes and get a huge jump start for their next character. I don't see this being a detriment to criminal RP at all infact it would encourage criminals to be smarter and even create roleplay opportunities for things like money laundering etc.

 

As long as it's balanced that is, imho the only feasible way would be via a court order if evidence is provided of assets gained, the value and how they were obtained following IFM approval to ensure fairness. If you commit brazen crimes and end up getting caught without having planned then you absolutely deserve to loose your gains.

[sCrax]

I don't think this could work here since we get 200k for nothing. Most people use those starting 200k to buy a car and an apartment. How are you going to prove that these assets were bought with clean money if we got the 200k out of thin air? Or what if someone renames their character and has a lot of OOC assets there, are they gonna seize those? There are no taxes, no accounting system, even legal characters would have issues with proving where they got their incomes from. Many business owners pay out salaries in cash, meaning there is no record of it so how would you prove that it's clean money? I can already see cops abusing this and seizing everything after they found an ounce of weed on you. This server is not ready for anything of this nature. You will have p2w cops that want to seize everything on one side and you'll have criminals that will turn this into an OOC shit-fest on the other. Then we will need LFM and IFM to intervene which will result in months of all parties going back and forth. Some court cases here already take months so this would not be enjoyable for anyone.  

[MeowTheEpic]

Until the legal system within the server functions properly this will just be another way to shit on criminals for OOC satisfaction, the biggest concern here is the obvious abuse of power that'll happen, and with the administration team being stretched too thin or unable to police most reports in a quick manner I don't think they'll be able to monitor these cases as efficiently as we'd like them to do.

Figure out a middle ground where one side doesn't get completely fucked by the other side and maybe it'll be possible to implement, no need to copy RICO or any other law word for word, the server doesn't operate like real life and it never will no matter how much people utter the words "muh realism", you mimic reality to the best of your abilities and it will never be a fully realistic portrayal as things will always be exaggerated for the sake of enjoying the game.